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Offline akv2002  
#1 Posted : 21 June 2012 23:44:39(UTC)
akv2002


Joined: 20/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 75
Location: Buenos Aires, BA
Dear Friends:
After read in Internet is possible to find people that think this is posssible true.
What is your opinion.
As ever thanks in advance

Diego
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 22 June 2012 05:21:09(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 8,879
Hi, Diego,

IMHO ESU LokPilot is better than mLD and ESU LokSound is better than mSD (but I have to admit I never tested an mSD, my judgement is based on the decoders they pre-install in their locos).
The Uhlenbrock decoders I have tested are not as good as ESU.

There are several brands I haven't tested yet, including Zimo, Kühn, Viessmann.

AFAIK the mSD is the cheapest sound decoder you can get - and some people like the mSD. So try them and make your own experience.
Regards
Tom
---
Happy customer of Roco, Piko, Fleischmann, ESU, Brawa, Liliput, Rivarossi, Lima, ... - and will happily continue to buy locos that run well out of the box. I'm also happy with 95% of my Märklin items, but will avoid a few cost-optimized items made 2011 or later.
Offline river6109  
#3 Posted : 22 June 2012 07:39:02(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 10,766
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Hi Diego,


Tom said it all in a nutshell unless you've refered to 60941, 60943, 60944 conversion sets, these are better than ESU perm. magnets sets,
Professionals in the modeltrain world reckon Zimo decoders are the Rolls Royce brand.

John
http://www.youtube.com/river6109
http://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#4 Posted : 22 June 2012 09:14:42(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 13,695
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Professionals in the modeltrain world reckon Zimo decoders are the Rolls Royce brand.



Unless your name is LH! (http://www.marklin-users.net/fo...IMO-more-advanced.aspx?= with most posts by LH deleted by LH)


I've used both msD and Loksound v4.0 decoders, and I would think the ESU decoders are better, if only for the programming interface that comes with the Lokprogrammer. It is reasonably easy to understand and easy to learn.

The msD decoders are good value for money, as they tend to be a bit cheaper than the ESU decoders. The CS2 programming interface is not that great, but this might improve when Marklin release their own Lokprogrammer later this year. I have had one msD decoder fail on me which had to be replaced, so reliability may not be as good as the ESU decoders.

Edited by user 22 June 2012 10:53:21(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline jeehring  
#5 Posted : 22 June 2012 10:36:14(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
.......pfff...I've seen/heard so many ESU decoder failling...too !
Still about ESU : if you think that the adjusting of the front lights needs seven (7) different CV, you'll love the ESU decoders V4. For me this is the opposite of progress and modernity....(in train model)

Edited by user 22 June 2012 15:50:08(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Bigdaddynz  
#6 Posted : 22 June 2012 10:56:59(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 13,695
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
.......pfff...I've seen/heard so many ESU decoder failling...too !


What?.........The first time you turned it on after taking it out of the box? For that is what happened to me with the mSD that failed (and no, my wiring was fine, as a replacement decoder worked in the loco with out any problems).
Offline river6109  
#7 Posted : 22 June 2012 11:28:57(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 10,766
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
What one hears about ESU decoder failing is most the time if not all the time, when you read within the ESU forum, not being able to program it, failing to understand the workings etc etc.
One has to differentiate between failings from customers and faulty decoders as it was apparent claimed with Zimo decoders and which was later identified as a faulty electronic board.
adjusting of lights does not only reflects lights but also includes, ESU smokegenerator, Seuthe smokegenerator, Roco or Krois electr. uncoupler or uncoupler (Telex), dimmer lights, highbeam etc.

One has seperate Märklin decoders from ESU decoders, for one reason, Märklin decoders are already set for a specific loco whereas ESU decoders are designed for any loco hence the options of many different light functions.

One can argue ESU's progress or simplifying the process of programming for instance the option of different motors and their suitable CV's, which in my opinion doesn't always work or is satisfactory.
As Mr. Lenz indicated at the last toy fair in Nuernberg, to make decoders or the digital components simpler and more user friendly.

One can point out, functions or extra programming fascilities by voting them as negative but there are other positive points one can make about ESU decoders.
one example is to have your loco decoder programmed in such a way it will always stop at the same spot (and the idea behind it is before the signal) regardless of its speed or braking delay setting.
Try this with a Märklin decoder and you will find your freight loco has to run at 250km/h to reach the signal in a long siding.

I don't know how one can make claims about seeing or hearing about an issue without making a specific claim of experiencing it your self. and in my case, I've bought ESU decoders over a period of 10 years or so and had not 1 faulty decoder and secondly there is a 2 years guarantee attached to it.


So before going down a road of critisism about ESU products or generalizing an issue about faulty decoders it would be appreciated to tell or inform other members an honest opinion and not something plugged out of thin air.

This does not include bugs which have been found in any decoder, lokprogrammer or digital control unit.

I find ESU products reliable and suitable for my application.

regards.,

John








http://www.youtube.com/river6109
http://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline akv2002  
#8 Posted : 22 June 2012 12:49:40(UTC)
akv2002


Joined: 20/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 75
Location: Buenos Aires, BA
Hello;! What a nice discussion about it! I could read all opinion and I consider all very important. For example about Rolls Royce´s decoder (Zimo). Or other points about decoders from other brands. All value commnents. Thanks all!!! Diego
Offline jeehring  
#9 Posted : 22 June 2012 13:15:22(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post


So before going down a road of critisism about ESU products or generalizing an issue about faulty decoders it would be appreciated to tell or inform other members an honest opinion and not something plugged out of thin air.

John




....such a statement should be applied to all brands and types of material...(.not only to ESU decoders).



Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
I find ESU products reliable and suitable for my application.


Of course ...
As a dealer of ESU products you won't say the opposite....
On main Model train forums in the world, there is an active lobbying "ESU against the rest of the world"...same approach, same shape, same behavior... + same reactions, same outcry each time we dare to make any remark or criticism, even insignificant, about ESU products....

Edited by user 22 June 2012 15:39:23(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline jeehring  
#10 Posted : 22 June 2012 13:22:40(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
.......pfff...I've seen/heard so many ESU decoder failling...too !


What?.........The first time you turned it on after taking it out of the box? ).




oh yes ... it happens with all kinds, all brands of decoders, ESU is not an exception to the rule...

Edited by user 22 June 2012 15:33:47(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 22 June 2012 16:02:55(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 8,879
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
Still about ESU : if you think that the adjusting of the front lights needs seven (7) different CV, you'll love the ESU decoders V4.
With my last loco (bought with factory-installed ESU V4 decoder), I had to change one CV to dim the headlights. Then I changed another CV to activate fade-in/fade-out of the headlights.

You have to change a few CVs more to simulate long-distance headlights with only one light bulb and only one function output - but this is something that neither ESU V3 nor any other decoder I know can achieve.

Yes, there are many CVs you can use to tweak the headlights - but with the default settings they work just like they do with any other decoder.
There are many possibilities with ESU V4 that don't exist with other decoders.
Regards
Tom
---
Happy customer of Roco, Piko, Fleischmann, ESU, Brawa, Liliput, Rivarossi, Lima, ... - and will happily continue to buy locos that run well out of the box. I'm also happy with 95% of my Märklin items, but will avoid a few cost-optimized items made 2011 or later.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#12 Posted : 22 June 2012 22:25:12(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 13,695
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
oh yes ... it happens with all kinds, all brands of decoders, ESU is not an exception to the rule...



I'm sure it does, but I'm relating my own personal experience. I don't need to have that belittled. Are you relating your own experience, or some third hand hearsay?

I have had an ESU Lokpilot 2.0 also fail, but I never bothered getting it replaced by ESU, as it was a rather crappy decoder IMHO. The Lokpilot 3 / 3.5 / 4 are much better.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#13 Posted : 22 June 2012 22:31:36(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 13,695
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
I find ESU products reliable and suitable for my application.


Of course ...
As a dealer of ESU products you won't say the opposite....
On main Model train forums in the world, there is an active lobbying "ESU against the rest of the world"...same approach, same shape, same behavior... + same reactions, same outcry each time we dare to make any remark or criticism, even insignificant, about ESU products....


Again, I think John is relating from his own personal experience, and he probably doesn't need to be belittled either! In fact, as a dealer, John would be in a much better position to know how reliable / unreliable ESU decoders are, as he would know the failure rates experienced by his own customers. Don't knock him because of that!
Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#14 Posted : 22 June 2012 22:41:28(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 873
I rarely run my locos however I have had several problems with the originally installed decoders including a couple that were dead straight from the box.

So the answer is simple I would not buy a Marklin decoder to convert any of loco or to replace faulty ones.

When the time comes to do some work on those locos I am likely to buy ESU but since there is so much hype about zimo I might try one of those too.
Offline akv2002  
#15 Posted : 23 June 2012 03:06:30(UTC)
akv2002


Joined: 20/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 75
Location: Buenos Aires, BA
Dera Friends:
After severa opinions and until this time, could be that the ESU decoders are the best options against new Marklin decoders.
And is true, I also had a M absolutely new loco with decoder dead. After several claims I obained a new from our dealer here.
What do you think about the mixed the 5-pole and magnet set from Marklin (60790-60971) and Esu decoder to convert on DCM Marklin locos.
And where or when do you recommend the 8-pin vs. 21-pin decos from ESU.
I hope your answer. Thanks, thanks and...thanks

Diego

Offline Bigdaddynz  
#16 Posted : 23 June 2012 05:03:51(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 13,695
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: akv2002 Go to Quoted Post
What do you think about the mixed the 5-pole and magnet set from Marklin (60790-60971) and Esu decoder to convert on DCM Marklin locos.



This should be a good choice, you will not have any problems with this setup.


Originally Posted by: akv2002 Go to Quoted Post
And where or when do you recommend the 8-pin vs. 21-pin decos from ESU.


That really depends on which interface is already in your loco. For example, in my 34780 ICE3 conversion thread, I used the 8 pin decoder interface, as that is what the new MTC board I was installing had. I recently fitted some decoders to my 2 Trix Br44 locos. I used decoders with the 21 pin interface, as that is what was installed in the Trix locos. I don't think there is any right or wrong in that regard.


Offline mvd71  
#17 Posted : 23 June 2012 06:02:46(UTC)
mvd71


Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 888
Location: Auckland,
Hi Diego,

I have installed many decoders in people loco's over the years, and I would have to say that the Lokpilot and Loksound decoders are generally the "industry standard" and I've never had any complaints form the people I've done the installs for.

At this stage I have yet to try the new msD and mlD decoders from Marklin. Although I may give one a go because they are cheaper and this makes some projects more viable than they were previously.

In terms of failure, I've probably seen as many ESU failures as Marklin failures from peoples loco's, and suspect in that respect it comes down to luck!

I would suggest that if you are unsure, go with the ESU decoders at this stage because there is more experience within the Marklin community with them. That way if you do have any problems, people will be in a better position to help.

Cheers....

Mike.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mvd71
Offline H0  
#18 Posted : 23 June 2012 08:59:19(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 8,879
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
For example, in my 34780 ICE3 conversion thread, I used the 8 pin decoder interface, as that is what the new MTC board I was installing had.
I don't know what MTC stands for, but MTC is the name of the 21-pin interface used by Märklin et. al. (PLUX22 also has 21 pins).
So IMHO there are no MTC boards with an 8-pin interface (NEM 652).

Regards
Tom
---
Happy customer of Roco, Piko, Fleischmann, ESU, Brawa, Liliput, Rivarossi, Lima, ... - and will happily continue to buy locos that run well out of the box. I'm also happy with 95% of my Märklin items, but will avoid a few cost-optimized items made 2011 or later.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#19 Posted : 23 June 2012 09:37:32(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 13,695
Location: New Zealand
Interface board, call it whatever you want, I really don't care! I think you're being too picky with those comments!

Edited by user 23 June 2012 11:22:49(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline river6109  
#20 Posted : 23 June 2012 10:46:36(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 10,766
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post


So before going down a road of critisism about ESU products or generalizing an issue about faulty decoders it would be appreciated to tell or inform other members an honest opinion and not something plugged out of thin air.

John




....such a statement should be applied to all brands and types of material...(.not only to ESU decoders).



Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
I find ESU products reliable and suitable for my application.


Of course ...
As a dealer of ESU products you won't say the opposite....
On main Model train forums in the world, there is an active lobbying "ESU against the rest of the world"...same approach, same shape, same behavior... + same reactions, same outcry each time we dare to make any remark or criticism, even insignificant, about ESU products....


I resent replies like this:
As a dealer of ESU products you won't say the opposite....

To give you an inside, I have had a Märklin Digital System since 1984 and I still have it without any trouble,
All my locos used to run with 6080 decoders and eventually 6090 and than 60901.
To buy a conversions it was at the time over A$ 200.00 and this started me off to look further than Märklin, to convert my over 200 locos.
So my association with ESU came at a much later stage and it had nothing to do with being a dealer.

Another reason I've opted for ESU, long before my association with ESU, if your decoder is faulty I had to send the whole loco back to Märklin Germany and everyone knows who lives in Australia, it gets expensive,
the loco in question was a steamloco out of a large starter set and the gearlight circuitboard made contact with the frame and it shortened the Aux 2 function (the gearlight circuitboard was loose) and I'm not the only one with this dilemma.

It took me 7 years to decide which Command station to go for and I've monitored all different manufacturers closely, which unit would suit me best.

My option to select the ECoS came with the following decisions:

a.) I could continue to use my 6021, MS1 and transformers without buying extra gadgets to connect them.
b.) my MS 1 was converted for use in conjunction with the ECoS.

to decide to buy ESU decoders was well before I've became a dealer.
secondly I was very interested in Zimo decoders but at the time they didn't have any decoders for the Märklin system.
Thirdly, My purchases of conversion sets and to buy a suitable decoder at the time was reduced to A$ 85.00.

In any case I could not give 2 hoots whether I'm dealer or not and this has never influenced my opinion.
If Märklin would come up with a decoder with open protocol and if it would be more adbvanced than an ESU decoder I would buy them.
I have never criticised any Märklin products except some manufacturing fault

I am not fanatical about my choice and my interest in products is purely on performance, reliability and price.




As I said in my previous post, one has to differentiate between a faulty decoder and a faulty cicuitboard, loose wire, shorts or any other reasons a decoder could fry.

I made enough complaints to ESU regarding a circuitboard and I lost 3 decoders, (with 2 years guarantee they replaced them) Lokprogrammer and I've written about this on this forum.

I've converted enough locos for members on this forum and sofar have had no complaints about decoders failing.

And if any fail, I'll be the first one to let you know.

having 7 diiferent light options, does this mean the decoder is faulty ?

What I find suspicious, having fitted over 200 lokpilots and sound decoders into my locos I never had a faulty decoder and I tell you, you don't have to be dealer to experience this.

I have had lucky escapes fitting decoders and 99.9% it has been the installer who has been at fault.

It is always easy to say to blame a product but you actually don't know what went wrong because you are not experienced enough to make an expert opinion and this is what Im opposed to, regardless of the brand name in question.






regards.,

John

Edited by user 23 June 2012 11:40:06(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

http://www.youtube.com/river6109
http://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
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Offline river6109  
#21 Posted : 23 June 2012 11:47:10(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 10,766
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
MTC = Main Transit Center
http://www.youtube.com/river6109
http://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline H0  
#22 Posted : 23 June 2012 14:53:59(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 8,879
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
MTC = Main Transit Center

Other explanations are also possible (including "Miniature Train Company"):
http://www.acronymfinder.com/MTC.html

I suspect it could stand for "Märklin Trix Connector", but I cannot confirm this - would be too simple, there must be a more interesting name behind this acronym. Wink

A more general term is PCB (printed circuit board), circuit board, or simply board.
Regards
Tom
---
Happy customer of Roco, Piko, Fleischmann, ESU, Brawa, Liliput, Rivarossi, Lima, ... - and will happily continue to buy locos that run well out of the box. I'm also happy with 95% of my Märklin items, but will avoid a few cost-optimized items made 2011 or later.
Offline river6109  
#23 Posted : 23 June 2012 15:42:04(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 10,766
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
MTC = Main Transit Center

Other explanations are also possible (including "Miniature Train Company"):
http://www.acronymfinder.com/MTC.html

I suspect it could stand for "Märklin Trix Connector", but I cannot confirm this - would be too simple, there must be a more interesting name behind this acronym. Wink

A more general term is PCB (printed circuit board), circuit board, or simply board.


Tom,

there are 130 different meanings of mtcBigGrin

http://abbreviations.wordcrow.com/define/MTC/
http://www.youtube.com/river6109
http://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline H0  
#24 Posted : 23 June 2012 19:37:56(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 8,879
The page I linked to knows a page that has 250 meanings:
http://www.acronymattic.com/MTC.html

Anybody who knows more meanings?

Still haven't found the meaning of mtc-21 ...
Regards
Tom
---
Happy customer of Roco, Piko, Fleischmann, ESU, Brawa, Liliput, Rivarossi, Lima, ... - and will happily continue to buy locos that run well out of the box. I'm also happy with 95% of my Märklin items, but will avoid a few cost-optimized items made 2011 or later.
Offline akv2002  
#25 Posted : 24 June 2012 01:03:04(UTC)
akv2002


Joined: 20/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 75
Location: Buenos Aires, BA
Dear Mike, John and Tom:
First in all thanks for your opinion. I do not have any doubt that your words are genuine and honest, of course in each one from the point of view from your personal (and for me value) experience.
One question about NEM 652 -8 pin- and 21 pin interface (called MTC ). I shall put the decoder (very very possible ESU) in to M locos from the 70`and 80' or some 90'. In other way locos analogic o delta, no much more, not with the 21-pin interface from other older deco.

If I do not want to use the soldier, by this way no to heat or burn the decoder, I could use one NEM 652 female and male?
The total conversion could be six or nine, if I could inclusive add one BR 01 from Fleischmann and BR 260 and BR 96 from Liliput. Both are DC, but they have one hole to put one screw with the third contact -the pickup shoe-. They have DC motors, with only the decoder it would be right?

Thanks for your support and patience!
Hugs to all
Diego
Offline mvd71  
#26 Posted : 24 June 2012 05:24:13(UTC)
mvd71


Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 888
Location: Auckland,
Hi Diego,

If you plan to convert loco's from the 70's and 80's then I'm afraid you will have to do some soldering. Loco's of this vintage do not have any interface, 8 or 21 pin.

However you can now purchase mtx style boards that you can solder and fit to your loco with the 21 pin connector. Once this is done satisfactorily you can then plug in the appropriate decoder without the same risk of damage. This of course still requires soldering, but only to a cheaper interface board rather then the decoder(also still assumes correct wiring!).

The Marklin 6094x series of decoders all come with this interface board (which is the same size as your old analogue reverser) as a part of the decoder kit, which I don't believe the ESU decoders do.

Cheers....

Mike.
Offline H0  
#27 Posted : 24 June 2012 05:42:33(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 8,879
Originally Posted by: akv2002 Go to Quoted Post
If I do not want to use the soldier, by this way no to heat or burn the decoder, I could use one NEM 652 female and male?
Yes. If space allows this, I would recommend to go this way.

ESU sells female NEM 652 plugs with cables (#51950). Cut the cables to the appropriate lengths, solder them to the loco, plug the decoder in.
The decoder has an extra cable for AUX2 (the fourth function output, not included in NEM 652).

If space is limited, you can buy the NEM 652 version of the decoder, cut off the plug, shorten cables as needed and solder them to the loco. Soldering takes place far from the decoder at the other end of the cable. No risk of frying the decoder if you don't drop the soldering iron.

MTC boards are a nice way if they fit - and they should fit if the loco has a Märklin mechanical reverse unit.
Regards
Tom
---
Happy customer of Roco, Piko, Fleischmann, ESU, Brawa, Liliput, Rivarossi, Lima, ... - and will happily continue to buy locos that run well out of the box. I'm also happy with 95% of my Märklin items, but will avoid a few cost-optimized items made 2011 or later.
Offline river6109  
#28 Posted : 24 June 2012 08:30:00(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 10,766
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Diego,
If you go down the road and purchase ESU deocders another aspect of a 21 mtc pin adapterplate is you can add another 2 functions (Aux3 + Aux 4) otherwise dedicated or programmed to F3 = Shunting = half speed or F 4 = acceleration & braking delay although these functions can be incorporated into your programming schedule any Aux function activated (Aux 3 + 4) will activate F3 + F4 as well or you de activate these functions.
For instance my ÖBB Rh 1020 has markerlights under Aux 4 and also the acceleration and braking delay, the markerlights would only be activated if the loco is solo, so in practice with carriages behind the Aux 4 would be off and your acceleration & braking delay would be therefore activated.
ESU is contemplating another adapterplate with alltogether 8 functions including the 2 light functions which will give you 6 Aux functions.
this would be almost adequate to add all the functions possible with a steam loco, for instance:

Aux 1 = smokgenerator
Aux 2 = telex coupling or similar
Aux 3 = Gearlight
Aux 4 = Fire box
Aux 5 = Cab light
Aux 6 = Tender cab light (maintenance crew) or a second telex coupling

Electric locos:

my selection would be:

Aux 1 = Interior lighting (carriages via Roco 4 pin electrical coupling)
Aux 2 = interior lighting = as above
Aux 3 = Telex coupling = other end of loco
Aux 4 = Pantho 1 (although not my choice) Interior cab light front
Aux 5 = Pantho 2 (although not my choice) Interior cab light rear
Aux 6 = markerlight front & rear = only 1 activated depending on direction of travel.

any adapter plate or the 8 pin wire harness woudl be an advantage especially when you start off with a Lokpilot and later on change it to a sound decoder, you don't need to do any extra soldering or unsoldering and this also can prevent you from making any future mistakes.

As Tom said this adapterplate can be used with any decoder providing it has a 21 mtc pin.

As you predicting you are going with an ESU decoder, the latest version decoder has another benefit, it has a RailComPlus system installed, this is, in my opinion an improved version of the already available version of the mfx decoder or as an ESU decoder M4.
the RailComPlus allows you to put the loco onto the track and it automatically registers your loco, you can choose, if you wish a new address or change any CV, furthermore your loco is permanently registered, with ESu Sound decoders the same version decoder will also recognize the type of loco and it will for instance register it under a DB 01 or BR 53 all depends which sound decoder you've downloaded into the decoder.

Another aspect of the latest version decoder, you can set your stopping time exactly in front of the Signal and it does not depend on the speed nor on the braking delay setting, it is or you can program it by distance, in conjunction with a brakemodule.

John

Edited by user 24 June 2012 08:36:52(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

http://www.youtube.com/river6109
http://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline akv2002  
#29 Posted : 25 June 2012 00:14:10(UTC)
akv2002


Joined: 20/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 75
Location: Buenos Aires, BA
Dear Friends:
In each response your support in more and more value for me. That you called adapterplate is the ESU part Nº 51968?
If I can understand right I should be soldier the wire from the motor, lights, etc to this adapterplate and then put de deco connected in to 21 pin.
Another experienced data from you. Thanks again, again and again. Diego
Offline river6109  
#30 Posted : 25 June 2012 02:49:30(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 10,766
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Diego,

This is correct, although the adapterplate has an instruction leaflet inclosed, there are also names on the adapterplate itself indicating which wire goes where

John

river6109 attached the following image(s):
adapterplate 51968.JPG
http://www.youtube.com/river6109
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5 years in Destruction mode
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Offline minirail  
#31 Posted : 26 June 2012 09:59:22(UTC)
minirail


Joined: 23/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 20
Location: Johannesburg,
have purchased 3 x 60942 and 1 x 60962.

All 4 decoders have a design fault. If the locomotive fitted with a 60962/60962 decoder is standing at a red signal that is controlled 72442 and there occurs a derailment on the layout which results in a small short not enough to switch off the 6021, immediately the locomotive takes off at uncontrollable top speed either in a forward or reverse. The only way to get the locomotive back under control is to cut the power, enter the locomotive address, set the speed to zero, and switch on and off the track power continuously until decoder again registered itself. By this time serious damaged has been done.

The 3 x 60942 have been returned to my Märklin dealer. The 60942 is still on the layout. I await a response from you before returning this decoder as well.

This phenomenon does not occur with factory fitted decoders in locomotives 37401, 37060, 39410, 39413, 37403, 37483, 37061 39140 or Märklin locomotives fitted with an ESU Lokpilot V4.

Offline river6109  
#32 Posted : 26 June 2012 12:33:49(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 10,766
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Hallo, Mini,

I only can comment on esu-decoders.

If it does happen with them you have to de-activate the analog DC selection.

John
http://www.youtube.com/river6109
http://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline akv2002  
#33 Posted : 26 June 2012 13:28:12(UTC)
akv2002


Joined: 20/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 75
Location: Buenos Aires, BA
Dear John. Thanks by the photo and explain it so clearly. Mini: Thanks for let me show the right wait...to ESU. I appreciated so much!
And if you not disturb, I promess new question in this topic an other similar.

Hugs to both
Diego

Offline jeehring  
#34 Posted : 26 June 2012 21:41:37(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Originally Posted by: minirail Go to Quoted Post
have purchased 3 x 60942 and 1 x 60962.

All 4 decoders have a design fault. If the locomotive fitted with a 60962/60962 decoder is standing at a red signal that is controlled 72442 and there occurs a derailment on the layout which results in a small short not enough to switch off the 6021, immediately the locomotive takes off at uncontrollable top speed either in a forward or reverse. The only way to get the locomotive back under control is to cut the power, enter the locomotive address, set the speed to zero, and switch on and off the track power continuously until decoder again registered itself. By this time serious damaged has been done.

The 3 x 60942 have been returned to my Märklin dealer. The 60942 is still on the layout. I await a response from you before returning this decoder as well.

This phenomenon does not occur with factory fitted decoders in locomotives 37401, 37060, 39410, 39413, 37403, 37483, 37061 39140 or Märklin locomotives fitted with an ESU Lokpilot V4.





Funny,.... just yesterday while doing research on a French forum, I came across a description of a similar problem. In two words: it concerns a 6 axles CC 65,000 model from Mistral brand with decoder and electronics Mistral.
The model starts like a rocket and becomes uncontrollable. Following which, one contributor says this has happened several times in his club with various models and this sometimes affects several models at the same time (from different brand) being simultaneously on the layout .... and it creates a real mess ! They came to understand that such reactions generally occurred as a consequence of a short circuit situation ...
(for those who read French it's here: http://forum.e-train.fr/...amp;t=42782&start=15)
BTW have you tried a reset of the decoders to default settings ?

Edited by user 26 June 2012 21:56:09(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline river6109  
#35 Posted : 27 June 2012 01:07:02(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 10,766
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Hi everyone,

I just remembered many years ago, my 6021 or should I say our locos (with a 6080 decoder), with no warning suddenly reversed and we thought it was caused by voltage flactuation.
It turned out to be at a speed of 150km/h (speed knob setting), after informing Märklin of the problem they asked me to send it over and they will fix it.
Some how the processor identified the speed as a reverse signal, which I believe they had rectified later on in other 6021 units or later productions.

Whether this relates to the problem you're experiencing, I can't say.

John
http://www.youtube.com/river6109
http://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline RayF  
#36 Posted : 27 June 2012 06:52:08(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,472
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
This behaviour is usually associated with the decoder thinking it is getting a DC voltage and therefore reacting to the speed setting, which of course is a very high speed at digital voltage!

On some decoders you can inhibit the DC (or AC) detection. Some signal modules rely on this though, so you may be stuck with it.

Is it possible to inhibit analogue detection on the new Marklin decoders?

PS. My advice is, try to minimise the risk of short circuits on your layout. Make sure the wheels and couplers are all compatible, and be ruthless about not running items which have a tendancy to derail. If using M track, replace any piece of track which has bent joiners or rail ends, and avoid those old turnouts with huge lanterns.

If all else fails, BE QUICK WITH THE STOP BUTTON!!!
Ray

Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline jeehring  
#37 Posted : 27 June 2012 09:36:44(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Yes Ray, it makes sense to me.

Most good decoders have a protection against short circuits and overloads ...Short circuit protection reacts and isolates the digital circuit, it's like there is no more decoder inside. Crying
A locomotive without decoder becomes....an analog loco ! An analog loco which receives digital power .
Digital power = 18 Volts constant current . 18 volts applied to an analog machine : she goes like a rocket !

I think there are possibilities to avoid this problem by acting on some CV . Probably that's the reason why models with factory installed decoders didn't react negatively. They are factory programmed once and for all .
That's the advantage of models sold complete: the programming of the electronic part is optimized. We do not need to hack them : just play ....for real ! (not only a slogan [biggrin] )

Edited by user 27 June 2012 10:41:09(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline RayF  
#38 Posted : 27 June 2012 09:57:27(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,472
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
Yes Ray, it makes sense to me.

Most good decoders have a protection against short circuits and overloads ...Short circuit protection reacts and isolates the digital circuit, it's like there is no more decoder inside. Crying
A locomotive without decoder becomes....an analog loco ! An analog loco which receives digital power .
Digital power = 18 Volts constant current . 18 volts applied to an analog machine : she goes like a rocket !

I think there are possibilities to avoid this problem by acting on some CV . Probably that's why models with factory installed decoders do not have this kind of reaction. They are factory programmed once and for all .
That's the advantage of models sold complete: the programming of the electronic part is optimized. We do not need to hack them : just play ....for real ! (not only a slogan [biggrin] )


Roland, there is a lot to be said for that point of view.

I have learned over the years that I get better performance with pre-installed decoders than with my own conversions. Nowadays I try to get a digital version of a loco instead of an analogue for that reason.

On the other hand, there are many older analogue locos that are very attractive, and it's nice to be able to run them on digital layouts. There will always be a need to retrofit decoders, so we can't eliminate this problem.

My feeling is that installation of decoders should be as "plug and play" as possible. I hate having to adjust a dozen CVs just to get my loco to run reasonably well. On the latest Lokpilot V4 decoders it is now necessary to enter 3-digit CV values, which makes it more difficult on my 6021. It has doubled the time it takes me to program a decoder.

Such is life in these times...!ThumbDown
Ray

Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline jeehring  
#39 Posted : 27 June 2012 10:57:08(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Yes Ray I agree, I have great pleasure me too in seeing the old models find a second life thanks to the possibilities of retrofitting...

BTW : I think the problem of the loks reacting as an analog Lok after a short, can be avoid by settings of the CV 29 : one of the the most important (& complicated) CV....
So, the first lesson from MINIRAILS's experience when installing a decoder is to anticipate this kind of problem by acting on the right CVs...
I realize that it must be less easy with a 6021....( but much easier with a MS2...)

Edited by user 27 June 2012 12:09:52(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline RayF  
#40 Posted : 27 June 2012 11:33:03(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,472
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
Yes Ray I agree, I have great pleasure me too in seeing the old models find a second life thanks to the possibilities of retrofitting...

BTW : I think the problem of the loks reacting as an analog Lok after a short, can be avoid by settings of the CV 29 : one of the the most important (& complicated) CV....
So, the first lesson from DIEGO's experience (AKV 2002) when installing a decoder is to anticipate this kind of problem by acting on the right CVs...
I realize that it must be less easy with a 6021....( but much easier with a MS2...)


I quote from the 60942 decoder manual:

"mfx/DCC operation: Locomotives standing on the layout start
running suddenly during mfx registration. – Deactivate the
automatic analog recognition on these locomotives."

I think this would cure the problem. There are no issues with setting CV29 on a 6021, as far as I can see. Just change the value from the default "6" to "7"

Ray

Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline akv2002  
#41 Posted : 27 June 2012 12:12:59(UTC)
akv2002


Joined: 20/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 75
Location: Buenos Aires, BA
Hello Roland an Ray:

Thanks not only for the "first lesson" to me, but the complete text that you offer like a very very interesting discussion. I am reading again and again and learn in each one a bit more. Thanks!
Of course, let continue with the interchange of opinions! Is very good like more people add yours comments and experience!
Thanks a lot
Hugs!

Diego
Offline NZMarklinist  
#42 Posted : 27 June 2012 15:29:28(UTC)
NZMarklinist


Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,280
Location: Auckland NZ
For what it is worth;

I do not believe Rail Com has any place where Marklin controllers are being used, it simply does nothing but cause programming problems and should be switched off.

On the other hand it may be fine if your using an ECos Controller....but.... AFAIK, ESU have not yet written software for their boosters (Ecosboost) that allows railcom to work with them.
(I know this from a Sydney Marklinist friend, who has two ECosII's and Ecos Boosters on his large layout, who on receiving his new Ecos' proceeded to enable Railcom on all new conversions only to find it didn't work. An enquiry to ESU, revealed the fact about the boosters, and lack of software development, much to his frustration Cursing)

So what you may say, but if your running your layout thru boosters, using the controller connected only to magnetic articles in order to protect it against the effects of derailments and shortcircuits, and still have some operational control when that occurs, then at the moment railcom is useless and we're talking decoders here that have mfx, so why bother with something that at the moment is only half done, when it will only be recognised by an Ecos directly conected to the tracks and providing traction power.
With Marklin, MFX is the standard present with their new mld/msd decoders as well as ESUM4 ones (V3 & V4) and it will be recognised by Marklin CS's as well as Ecos controllers, but Railcom only works for Ecos controllers, but only if a booster is not present, so why bother with such a limited protocol until it is fully mature, but again, always useless with Marklin CS's and other M digital Controllers.

I should add that I'm an ESU user and may well go the ECosII way when I decide to have a colour screen Controller, but as mentioned in earlier posts, I find it preferable to buy my M loks with sounds and therefore MFX allready included, but prefer ESU M4 decoders for conversions. I have one MSD conversion in the pipeline, we'll see how it goes Wink I don't think I'll be bothering with Railcom Scared LOL

Edited by user 27 June 2012 15:40:19(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
Offline river6109  
#43 Posted : 27 June 2012 15:40:51(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 10,766
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Glen,

I've converted locos for Dale. here on this forum and RailComPlus wasn't a problem (operated via CS2), the problem is if you have an ESU decoder and you don't turn off analog DC your loco will not respond to the braking modules.

But as you've mentioned boosters, I don't have any experience with these.

RailComPlus works well for me (ECoSII), I have one loco with ESU mfx (M4)

John
http://www.youtube.com/river6109
http://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline NZMarklinist  
#44 Posted : 28 June 2012 14:47:37(UTC)
NZMarklinist


Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,280
Location: Auckland NZ
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Glen,

I've converted locos for Dale. here on this forum and RailComPlus wasn't a problem (operated via CS2), the problem is if you have an ESU decoder and you don't turn off analog DC your loco will not respond to the braking modules.

But as you've mentioned boosters, I don't have any experience with these.

RailComPlus works well for me (ECoSII), I have one loco with ESU mfx (M4)

John


Hi John,
It is my understanding that a CS2 will not talk railcom Confused so why have it enabled when mfx will do all the registration needed
Glen
Auckland NZ

" Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok !

CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
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