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Offline kimballthurlow  
#1 Posted : 31 May 2012 09:38:53(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 4,181
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi,

I have in mind to create a double catenary track oval layout, with a railway station where main line trains will stop in either direction. Marklin of course.

Above the station on a second level, will be a small branch terminus served by a push-pull or rail motor set. So it is simple, no loops or switches, just a single track from a hidden end-point to the visible terminus. There is a walkway from the branch terminus to the main line station.

What I want to happen is this- every time the branch terminus is occupied by a train, I want any main line trains to slow down and stop. They will stop to pick up or drop off passengers for the branch. As soon as the branch line train vacates the terminus, the main lines start running again.

This has to be automatic, and I don't want to use a computer (PC). Effectively, I have trains going round and round the main lines continuously, and I just manually drive the branch line back and forwards between stops. Is it possible? And is there a simple solution? The solution for stopping the main lines is mandatory - the slowing down can be the next logical step.

I have C track, Mobile Station 1, a couple of K83 boxes (I don't know what they do, as I inherited them), and catenary available. I realise I will probably have to buy extra things, and I am keen to use off-the-shelf Marklin items.

Any ideas would be much appreciated, but remember I am unable to build electronics or other control devices.

regards
Kimball

Edited by user 31 May 2012 21:38:29(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HO Scale - Märklin (ep III, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
Offline river6109  
#2 Posted : 31 May 2012 11:46:59(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 10,766
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Kimball,


there are ways of doing this but I don't know about Maerklin decoders.

First up you can use braking modules, these modules enable you to slow down and accelerate trains within a specific track section,
ESU decoders have the ability to delay the starting movements which in your case would be a simple solution to the incoming train, up and down load passengers and the other train than sets off.

most of the movements can be activated by switch contact tracks, which allows whichever train to start moving via a braking module.
Although the Maerklin brake module is very expensive I've done my own or there are some on ebay for sale and much cheaper (none Maerklin product) and also suitable for mfx locos.
The way it works, a train enters the siding, goes over a short isolated track section (slightly longer than the largest slider), this will activate the braking delay with the next section and it all depends how long youtr train is at the end of this section is another isolated track for the stop section.
While the train is under the influence of the braking module, lights and all other function will be active but you can't cahnge the setting while in this mode, when your signal goes to green the loco will slowly start moving.
ESU decoders have also 3 options to set the braking delay :
a.) by setting the braking delay (like Maerklin decoders = this is ok if your siding isn't too long)
b.) by setting the braking time
c.) by setting the distance, this is a very handy option. your train can do any speed, e.g. from 5 km/h to 250 km/h it always will stop at the same spot, just before the signal.

Your signal module has several connection sockets:

1.) red & brown wire
2,) on and off socket for station light for instance
3.) Signal socket red = green
4.) braking socket = activation, transformation, stop
5.) socket for solenoid connection and switch contact tracks.

You can program or set it up in such a way for your own purpose.

Example:
Your train enters the main station from the main line, slows down and stops, in meanwhile the train has gone over a switching contact track and has trigggered the branchline track: green, with the ptrogrammed delayed action decoder, the train will start , leaves the station and sets the signal to red (another switch contact track, thsi contact track could also release the the train in the main station by setting the signal to green and again just outside the mainstation another sitch contact track to set the signal to red again.
All depends how you like your trains to stop or start or goe right through this would have to be worked out what goes where.

Kimball I hope this will help you a bit

regards.,

John
http://www.youtube.com/river6109
http://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#3 Posted : 31 May 2012 11:49:56(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 873
That is possible but I think you want to much with too little. To be able to acomplish something like that you'll need signals, detection tracks much more preferable is a central station or the equivalent ESU than the mobile station because you can set up routes. For the slowing down you'll need braking modules. Automation of trains is not something I would recommend to anyone who is not good at understanding some electronics. If you are going to be controlling the push pull train manually why don't you just add a switch that cuts power to the particular section of track in the station and activate that manually too, it'll be a lot simpler and just as effective, when the main trains reach the area without power -at the station- they'll stop.
Offline BrandonVA  
#4 Posted : 31 May 2012 18:34:29(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,997
Location: VA
I agree this is possible, and probably not overwhelmingly difficult. You could do it via analog as well. You don't have all the materials, but signals and detection tracks as stated are probably the easiest way.If you have no turnouts, I think you could do it with 3-4 signals. I am not sure of the exact count, because I don't know what you need with digital to reverse the railcar at the end of the branch line and send it back to the station.

-Brandon
Offline kimballthurlow  
#5 Posted : 31 May 2012 21:47:25(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 4,181
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi John, IANCZ and Brandon,

Many thanks for the replies.

To break it down into its constituent parts then, I need:
1. switching contact track (detection track) on the branch terminus (this indicates occupancy?)
2. this controls (on and off) an isolated track power section, and possibly an associated block signal

The slowing down part I can relegate to another time, thanks John.

IAMCZ, your manual idea might actually be the solution, as it doesn't mess with my head. See I grew up in the days when 12v electrics was simple.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#6 Posted : 31 May 2012 23:28:23(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 873
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
See I grew up in the days when 12v electrics was simple.

regards
Kimball


That's very relative, model railways electrics could always be quite complicated. Even in the late 30's you could have done what you want with of the shelf marklin signals and some knowledge. You can still have simple wiring now too but then you'll only get simple running. You need to decide whether you are prepared to do what it takes to run a layout beyond the usual.

Going back to the signals you could do it in a couple of ways. Lets say you chose the circuit track instead of the contact track (otherwise you'll need to solve a problem created by it) you'll have 2 of these circuit tracks, one entering the station (small branch) and one leaving the same station. These tracks are direction dependant and can give a diferent order according to direction. When the push/pull train enters the station activates the first circuit track which will turn all the signals in the main station red which by conecting them properly will cut the power on the main station stopping the trains. When the branch train leaves activates the second circuit track which in turn turns signals green which will give power to the main track getting the main lines moving again. Unless you are happy to experiment to learn I still think the manual switch is by far the best option for your particular case.
Most of the basic information necesary for simple signal use is available in the signal books issued by marklin over the years, it pays to read them otherwise many steps without all the graphics can be very hard and time consuming to explain here .

Alex
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#7 Posted : 01 June 2012 04:10:36(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 4,181
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Alex,

I think your description of the "circuit track" is what I have been looking for. I guess this would be C track item 24194, 24294, or 24994.

As it is a branch terminus, perhaps I need only one of those at the entrance, and as you say, it is direction dependant? It is no longer an "occupancy" thing - rather a switch in, and a switch out.

Regards the signals, yes I can deal with those as my layout has a few Marklin solenoid semaphore arm signals (and one digital) associated with isolated track sections, which I have successfully hooked up, and work fine. I work the soilenoid ones with the manual switch 72720.

OK so between the "circuit track" and the signal, do I need another Marklin device? Or does the circuit track itself activate the solenoid?

regards
Kimball

Edited by user 01 June 2012 04:30:38(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HO Scale - Märklin (ep III, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
Offline cookee_nz  
#8 Posted : 01 June 2012 05:56:21(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,918
Location: Wellington
Originally Posted by: Iamnotthecrazyone Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
See I grew up in the days when 12v electrics was simple.

regards
Kimball


That's very relative, model railways electrics could always be quite complicated. Even in the late 30's you could have done what you want with of the shelf marklin signals and some knowledge. You can still have simple wiring now too but then you'll only get simple running. You need to decide whether you are prepared to do what it takes to run a layout beyond the usual.

Going back to the signals you could do it in a couple of ways. Lets say you chose the circuit track instead of the contact track (otherwise you'll need to solve a problem created by it) you'll have 2 of these circuit tracks, one entering the station (small branch) and one leaving the same station. These tracks are direction dependant and can give a diferent order according to direction. When the push/pull train enters the station activates the first circuit track which will turn all the signals in the main station red which by conecting them properly will cut the power on the main station stopping the trains. When the branch train leaves activates the second circuit track which in turn turns signals green which will give power to the main track getting the main lines moving again. Unless you are happy to experiment to learn I still think the manual switch is by far the best option for your particular case.
Most of the basic information necesary for simple signal use is available in the signal books issued by marklin over the years, it pays to read them otherwise many steps without all the graphics can be very hard and time consuming to explain here .

Alex


I agree with this, it's the way I was thinking, essentially just a block control system. No electronics required, just solenoid-operated electrical devices, all off-the-shelf Marklin components.

If you have one of the Signal manuals, or if you have some automated signal control running already, you are almost there.

If you don't have a signal manual, they can be very helpful with clear wiring diagrams, nicely laid out etc.

Sometimes automated Block Control via Signals and Contact tracks seems a bit overwhelming, but some quick experimentation often makes things crystal-clear.

The 0361 Signals manual is a very good place to start.

Cheers

Steve
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#9 Posted : 01 June 2012 09:21:05(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 4,181
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Steve and Alex,

I am glad you reminded me, I have a copy of the 03402 signal book.

When all else fails, read the instruction book. BigGrin

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
Offline river6109  
#10 Posted : 01 June 2012 09:41:16(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 10,766
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Kimball,

Yes the circuit switching tracks will trigger the signal (red-green) and at the same time gives you power in the track (on-off),

You also have to be careful where you place the switching track in case you control turnouts aswell, with other words your train has to be within the siding before the turnout is switched or activated

regards.,

John
http://www.youtube.com/river6109
http://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by river6109
Offline kimballthurlow  
#11 Posted : 01 June 2012 10:24:16(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 4,181
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Thank you John,

Yes, I have now read that signal book, and it says that the circuit track can control up to 2 analog signals directly.
I think what I will be looking for is the S88 (60880), so that the circuit track can control a few digital signals on the main line.

That is the plan.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#12 Posted : 01 June 2012 10:28:46(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 873
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Hi Alex,

I guess this would be C track item 24194, 24294, or 24994.

As it is a branch terminus, perhaps I need only one of those at the entrance, and as you say, it is direction dependant? It is no longer an "occupancy" thing - rather a switch in, and a switch out.

OK so between the "circuit track" and the signal, do I need another Marklin device? Or does the circuit track itself activate the solenoid?

regards
Kimball


1)Yes, those are the circuit tracks I had in mind.

2)Yes you will need only one, the reason I said two was because I misread your description and though the branch station was in the middle and not at the end of the line.

3)You don't need anything extra* (read further down) to activate the signal. The circuit track will provide a momentary conection to power the solenoid of the signal. If you are using anything like a 7041, 7040, 7039 semaphores the signals have 2 red cables which are open circuit when in red and closed circuit when in green position. You should use those cables to power up the isolated part of track where you want the main trains to stop. That would be the digital signal from the mobile station.

*One important thing when you are using signals in analogue manner but the trains run digital like you will be doing here. You should avoid using the power from the mobile station, even from the same transformer that powers up the mobile station. You should use an additional transformer to connect the circuit tracks and power the signals. All the connections should be kept completely separated from the digital power because otherwise you run the risk of damaging the mobile station.

I hope now it is more clear
Alex
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Offline BrandonVA  
#13 Posted : 01 June 2012 14:35:03(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,997
Location: VA
I saw you have the signal manual, but for anyone interested I'll re-post a link to Marklin's NA site:

http://www.marklin.com/tech/SignalManual.pdf

(Copy and paste if the click thru does not work)
Offline kimballthurlow  
#14 Posted : 01 June 2012 21:55:38(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 4,181
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Alex,

Thank you for the additional notes. I think that I can now proceed with my plan. It will not be difficult.

Hi Brandon,

That is a really good link, obviously done by Marklin USA. The Marklin book is translated form German, and does suffer in a few respects from that.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
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