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Offline VinceHerman  
#1 Posted : 24 May 2012 14:47:50(UTC)
VinceHerman

United States   
Joined: 02/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 32
Location: Seville, OH
Our layout will have many sensors. Many s88's which have to be daisy chained together physically close to the CS2.
How have you wired these?
There are clusters of sensors for the shadow yard. I am not looking forward to 20 or 30 individual wires from each cluster.
I am thinking of using network cable with it's multiple twisted pairs.
What have you done?
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by VinceHerman
Offline kbvrod  
#2 Posted : 24 May 2012 19:34:43(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,594
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi Vince,all,

Originally Posted by: VinceHerman Go to Quoted Post
Our layout will have many sensors. Many s88's which have to be daisy chained together physically close to the CS2.
How have you wired these?
There are clusters of sensors for the shadow yard. I am not looking forward to 20 or 30 individual wires from each cluster.
I am thinking of using network cable with it's multiple twisted pairs.What have you done?


Thanks for sharing youse guys layout photos!
A few questions before the experts chime in,.....BigGrin

Your running the whole she-bang with a CS2?
You are going wire it above the shadow station baseboard?

Two things to consider,IMVHO,....1)contact sections before and after the storage tracks in the shadow yard.
2) make the whole length of storage tracks contact sections.


Dr D


Offline Maxi  
#3 Posted : 24 May 2012 20:22:16(UTC)
Maxi


Joined: 28/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 757
Location: Wawa, Ontario
Originally Posted by: VinceHerman Go to Quoted Post
Our layout will have many sensors. Many s88's which have to be daisy chained together physically close to the CS2.
How have you wired these?
There are clusters of sensors for the shadow yard. I am not looking forward to 20 or 30 individual wires from each cluster.
I am thinking of using network cable with it's multiple twisted pairs.
What have you done?


I have used network cable for connecting the individual feedback sections and had no problems.
All of my cable runs go back to a single point and then connect up to the respective input on the S88 module.
I did it this way so that I could service the modules if required, instead of squirming into awkward places to sort out issues.

Offline Maxi  
#4 Posted : 24 May 2012 20:26:35(UTC)
Maxi


Joined: 28/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 757
Location: Wawa, Ontario
Originally Posted by: kbvrod Go to Quoted Post
Two things to consider,IMVHO,....
1)contact sections before and after the storage tracks in the shadow yard.
2) make the whole length of storage tracks contact sections.


I agree.
You can not have too many sensors and I prefer to monitor all sections of track when and where possible.
Contact switches are really just showing a small area of information, lots can happen from one contact switch to another.
Monitoring all pieces of track by isolating one of the running rails and connecting sections of track to a single S88 input makes for a very detailed monitored track system.

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Maxi
Offline Danlake  
#5 Posted : 25 May 2012 04:47:19(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 671
Wasn’t part of the advantage of using the Marklin 3 rail system that you always have 2 rails for ground contact to ensure smooth running?

Just wondering if you isolate long section of rails, if you have observed any performance issues, especially at slow speed when trains are pulling into the shadow station?

Brgs - Lasse
Digital 8m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS2 60214 / Train Controller Gold
Offline Maxi  
#6 Posted : 25 May 2012 12:33:17(UTC)
Maxi


Joined: 28/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 757
Location: Wawa, Ontario
Originally Posted by: Danlake Go to Quoted Post
Wasn’t part of the advantage of using the Marklin 3 rail system that you always have 2 rails for ground contact to ensure smooth running?

Just wondering if you isolate long section of rails, if you have observed any performance issues, especially at slow speed when trains are pulling into the shadow station?

Brgs - Lasse


No I have not experienced any performace issues, I have installed feeder wires about every 8 to 10 sections of track.
Copper is cheap, use more than what you think is engineered required and you will have no problem.
I am not really a fan of following minimum standard.
Overkill is usually a better choice.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Maxi
Offline Danlake  
#7 Posted : 25 May 2012 16:56:20(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 671
I agree Maxi - you can never have to many feeders wire!
Digital 8m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS2 60214 / Train Controller Gold
Offline kbvrod  
#8 Posted : 25 May 2012 17:40:36(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,594
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi all,

>No I have not experienced any performace issues, I have installed feeder wires about every 8 to 10 sections of track.
Copper is cheap, use more than what you think is engineered required and you will have no problem.
I am not really a fan of following minimum standard.Overkill is usually a better choice.<

Good point Maxi! Like the old saying "When in doubt,power out!" BigGrin

My former shadow station/yard was 10' long and one rail served as a contact track,no issues(K-track) and I did as Maxi,I dropped feeder wires ever 3'.
In fact,having many feeder wires,even if you don't 'need' them is good idea on a layout.Easy to solder them to your bus then take up the track,solder,....

Dr D

Offline Maxi  
#9 Posted : 25 May 2012 20:17:22(UTC)
Maxi


Joined: 28/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 757
Location: Wawa, Ontario
Originally Posted by: kbvrod Go to Quoted Post


In fact,having many feeder wires,even if you don't 'need' them is good idea on a layout.Easy to solder them to your bus then take up the track,solder,....

Dr D



On one section of my layout I ended up cutting a large section out to put a bridge in and of course there was a feeder in that section.
I just removed that feeder and installed the bridge which was on an curved incline, and no change in performance. Smile
UserPostedImage

Edited by user 25 May 2012 21:05:54(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline clapcott  
#10 Posted : 27 May 2012 03:01:38(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,243
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Danlake Go to Quoted Post
Wasn’t part of the advantage of using the Marklin 3 rail system that you always have 2 rails for ground contact to ensure smooth running?

I believe this to be correct - and a very desirable backup for warping track especially any transition in gradient and/or curves.
Quote:

Just wondering if you isolate long section of rails, if you have observed any performance issues, especially at slow speed when trains are pulling into the shadow station?

It will !! (performance issue = stall)
But risk management has to weigh this against the benefits of using the isolated rail for sensing.

Suggestions
- "Work" at laying the track correctly (physically smooth to mitigate rocking locos from loosing contact)
- Don't uses abrasive cleaners that remove the rail protection once rust gets through it will always be an issue.
- If you have to isolate the rail for sensing on a a curve , do it on the inside rail - the loco will tend to tilt towards the outside and that is where you really need the power circuit to be complete
- for small 0-4-0 type devices, maybe with tires (e.g. glastkasten), an additional wire to the carriage chassis may help

In my ideal world I would leverage the current detection method like the 2-Rail guys do(They have no option). but this doesn't work if there is no power to the track. Both methods have there place as does the actual "tracking" of trains around the layout (i.e. prototypical block control and CTC).

Personally I prefer an "out of band" sensing solution where there is no connection between the track power system. e.g. reed sensing, LISSY, etc. But this is never an either/or discussion

Peter

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by clapcott
Offline clapcott  
#11 Posted : 27 May 2012 03:21:42(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,243
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: VinceHerman Go to Quoted Post
.....
I am thinking of using network cable with it's multiple twisted pairs.
What have you done?


I am very happy with the use of Cat5 network cables. the bundling of 8 wires aligns with each side of a s88
having the s88s at the control desk assists if you use the desk for multiple layouts (e.g. a club)

This includes using the "industry tested" RJ45 connectors or MDF terminators - but use a proper punch-down tool

I am conscious to use the stranded "patch" cable in preference to the single core "fixed wiring" cable, that can be recovered from building renovations, as this flexibility is needed for regular pack-up/set-up of the layout or relocation of the control desk


The ground/return is important and if a true, out of band, solution is needed - i.e. the various grounds on the layout maynot/cannot be commoned - then a separate wire is needed for that. With your size of layout I would expect the CU with the s88s attached to be dedicated to driving the accessories (boosters being used for trains on the track). In which case the CUs own Brown (that snakes to the various k83/k84 devices) will do nicely for that.


Peter

Offline Danlake  
#12 Posted : 27 May 2012 03:42:14(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 671
Quote:

Suggestions
- "Work" at laying the track correctly (physically smooth to mitigate rocking locos from loosing contact)
- Don't uses abrasive cleaners that remove the rail protection once rust gets through it will always be an issue.
- If you have to isolate the rail for sensing on a a curve , do it on the inside rail - the loco will tend to tilt towards the outside and that is where you really need the power circuit to be complete
- for small 0-4-0 type devices, maybe with tires (e.g. glastkasten), an additional wire to the carriage chassis may help



Thanks Clapcott,

Some very good advice for us newbiesSmile

Brgs - Lasse
Digital 8m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS2 60214 / Train Controller Gold
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