Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline 20-VOLT-AC  
#1 Posted : 13 April 2012 08:55:10(UTC)
20-VOLT-AC

United Kingdom   
Joined: 27/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 216
Location: united kingdom
Hi Guys.
Please add your comments.

I like the 3-rail AC system because................when the train stops the lights stay on !!

Neil.
All Metal Marklin Fan .
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 13 April 2012 09:09:23(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 9,078
.

Edited by user 13 April 2012 09:49:22(UTC)  | Reason: Removed because off topic

Regards
Tom
---
Happy customer of Roco, Piko, Fleischmann, ESU, Brawa, Liliput, Rivarossi, Lima, ... - and will happily continue to buy locos that run well out of the box. I'm also happy with 95% of my Märklin items, but will avoid a few cost-optimized items made 2011 or later.
Offline 20-VOLT-AC  
#3 Posted : 13 April 2012 09:19:11(UTC)
20-VOLT-AC

United Kingdom   
Joined: 27/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 216
Location: united kingdom
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: 20-VOLT-AC Go to Quoted Post
I like the 3-rail AC system because................when the train stops the lights stay on!!
That's just the same with 2-rail digital and 3-rail digital (and with 3-rail analogue AC, the lights go off).

IMHO 3-rail has a slight advantage with ground contact (but many new M* models have problems with ground contact) and turning loops, but 2-rail has better looking tracks.

If you prefer the look, go 2-rail. If you prefer good function, go 3-rail (and convert old locos).



This forum is named ...................."Collector's Corner" For those who collect no-longer produced models..............

Digital DCC should not be mentioned in this forum as it is a modern standard of railway control.

This topic is for vintage 3-rail analogue enthusiasts only !!

What we need on this site is a pre 1970 forum!!!

If you want to mention "DCC" then use the "DIGITAL" forum page Glare

Neil.
All Metal Marklin Fan .
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 13 April 2012 09:28:19(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 9,078
Originally Posted by: 20-VOLT-AC Go to Quoted Post
This topic is for vintage 3-rail analogue enthusiasts only!!
Sorry, but I missed that "3-rail AC" refers to the "Märklin 3-rail 20 V AC" system only.
My first Märklin experience was with 16 V AC stuff from the '60s and '70s where the lights go off when the train stops.

Edited by user 13 April 2012 09:51:41(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Regards
Tom
---
Happy customer of Roco, Piko, Fleischmann, ESU, Brawa, Liliput, Rivarossi, Lima, ... - and will happily continue to buy locos that run well out of the box. I'm also happy with 95% of my Märklin items, but will avoid a few cost-optimized items made 2011 or later.
Online RayF  
#5 Posted : 13 April 2012 10:18:20(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,638
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I like the 3 rail AC system because...

It works well with the trains I have!


DCC DCC DCC DCC DCC Flapper
Ray

Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline petestra  
#6 Posted : 13 April 2012 10:24:11(UTC)
petestra

United States   
Joined: 26/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 4,168
Location: washington,dc
I love the M track and the fact that there is never a problem with any kind of track configuration
that you make, including and most importantly, the reverse loop. Peter
Offline Jeremy Palmer  
#7 Posted : 13 April 2012 10:41:30(UTC)
Jeremy Palmer

Barbados   
Joined: 14/04/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,452
Location: St. Michael, Barbados
Total electrically (and many others) incompetent here so would have to be no reverse loop for moi.

Also, well for the most part part anyway, Marklin AC seems to be a very reliable product and thse are the two sole factors that determined my
choice of manufacturer. Seems to be borne out by how many other manufacturers make AC products which was also a consideration - imitation
being the sincerest form of flattery etc.

Ref. reliability, I, like many others here, have 50 year old products that LOOK AND RUNBlushing Blushing better than me. I know some have models
much older than mine.

Thanks for posting question Neil.

Jeremy.

ps. Also so I could join Juhan's gang?????????????????BigGrin BigGrin BigGrin BigGrin .j.

Edited by user 13 April 2012 10:49:39(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Jeremy.

1). If at first you don't succeed, bungee jumping mightn't be for you.
2). The early bird may get the worm, but it's the second rat that gets the cheese.
Offline hennabm  
#8 Posted : 13 April 2012 11:39:01(UTC)
hennabm

Scotland   
Joined: 22/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,555
Location: Edinburgh,
Hi all

- reliability

- ease of electrical connections (another electrical numpty hereBlushing )

- functional manufacturer made catenary systemThumpUp again with easy electrical set up.

- it is different to the norm (2 rail) and I don't fit the norm LOL LOL

Mike
1957 - 1985 era
What's digital?
Offline jeehring  
#9 Posted : 13 April 2012 13:21:37(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,739
Location: ,
...in a certain way we may consider the old direction-reversing relay as the ancestor of digital decoders....(independant reversing instead of... reversing the polarity of the rails...)
I'm with Ray : 3 rails AC works so well...: good electrical capture on the machines.
Also : on the layout, the electrical configuration is so easily "readable"..(by comparison with 2 rails DC/DCC).

Edited by user 14 April 2012 07:54:21(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline GlennM  
#10 Posted : 13 April 2012 13:41:25(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,438
Location: Somewhere Near Manchester, England
.......why have only two when you can have 3....................
Offline 3rail4life  
#11 Posted : 14 April 2012 05:39:07(UTC)
3rail4life

United States   
Joined: 23/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 289
Location: Northern California
.....it is all I have ever known....and it works!
Offline cookee_nz  
#12 Posted : 14 April 2012 06:39:42(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,939
Location: Wellington
Originally Posted by: 20-VOLT-AC Go to Quoted Post
Hi Guys.
Please add your comments.

I like the 3-rail AC system because................when the train stops the lights stay on !!

Neil.


"When the train stops the lights stay on"??? Surely you mean the lights go off.

Unless you have the VERY early reverse unit which allowed a 'neutral' state so that you could apply power and the loco would not move, but the lights would come on.

But this only applies to the Loco. For all lighted coaches, wagons with tail lights etc the lights most definitely go OFF when the train stops, especially at signals in a block control system.

Perhaps I've mis-understood you?

But it seems you are picking 1970 as 'pre-digital' but you have a few more years to go yet, 1984 to be sure so if you are hankering for the pre-digital products then the 70's decade is very much in the running.

I like pre-digital for the je ne sais quoi, but then, I also like digital so perhaps I'm just a fence-sitter BigGrin

Cheers

Cookee
Melbourne
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by cookee_nz
H0
Offline Johnvr  
#13 Posted : 14 April 2012 07:21:35(UTC)
Johnvr

South Africa   
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 814
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Neil,

I like 3 Rail system because ..... you can make reverse loops !BigGrin

I like AC system because ......

The advantages of AC over DC hinge on its high voltage transmission and frequency property. Since alternating current operated on such a low current, there was little power dissipation, even over exceptionally long distances with minimal energy dissipation (AC/DC: What's the Difference?). This was due to the fact that the electrons did not move very far and consequently did not generate a lot of heat due to friction of motion. Direct current however, "ran out of pressure [(effective power deliverance)] about half a mile from the power station" (Lomas 65). This limitation meant that direct current needed high gauge copper wire (expensive) and a power station effectively in one's back yard (inconvenient). http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~jstrauss6/AC%20index/ACvsDC3.html

...... so I can have a large Marklin layout without losing power over large distances !!Drool BigGrin



Ok .. here's a couple of points for you to consider :

1. Marklin Analog uses AC from the Transformer to the Locomotive Motor.

2. Marklin Delta uses AC from the Transformer to the Decoder, and AC from the Decoder to the Locomotive Motor.

3. Marklin Digital uses AC from the Transformer to the Decoder, and the Decoder rectifies it from AC to DC for the Locomotive Motor.

4. On some older locomotives where the function is connected to the body of the locomotive (eg the 7226 Smoke Unit), Marklin uses AC from the Transformer to the Decoder, and also AC from the Decoder to the Smoke Unit.

Regards,BigGrin
John
Offline 20-VOLT-AC  
#14 Posted : 14 April 2012 07:30:30(UTC)
20-VOLT-AC

United Kingdom   
Joined: 27/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 216
Location: united kingdom
Some really great answers posted about this topic, well done guy's !!

Neil.
All Metal Marklin Fan .
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 22 April 2012 09:51:30(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 9,078
Originally Posted by: Johnvr Go to Quoted Post
2. Marklin Delta uses AC from the Transformer to the Decoder, and AC from the Decoder to the Locomotive Motor.
It's DC (unipolar pulsed DC, PWM) from Delta decoder to motor (for both DC and AC/DC motors).

Originally Posted by: Johnvr Go to Quoted Post
4. On some older locomotives where the function is connected to the body of the locomotive (eg the 7226 Smoke Unit), Marklin uses AC from the Transformer to the Decoder, and also AC from the Decoder to the Smoke Unit.
It's DC (unipolar pulsed DC, PWM) from decoder to lights and/or smoke unit.
Regards
Tom
---
Happy customer of Roco, Piko, Fleischmann, ESU, Brawa, Liliput, Rivarossi, Lima, ... - and will happily continue to buy locos that run well out of the box. I'm also happy with 95% of my Märklin items, but will avoid a few cost-optimized items made 2011 or later.
Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 22 April 2012 09:53:04(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 9,078
I like the 3-rail AC system because................the locos leap with ultra-bright lights and a buzzing sound whenever I change the direction.

Regards
Tom
---
Happy customer of Roco, Piko, Fleischmann, ESU, Brawa, Liliput, Rivarossi, Lima, ... - and will happily continue to buy locos that run well out of the box. I'm also happy with 95% of my Märklin items, but will avoid a few cost-optimized items made 2011 or later.
Offline john black  
#17 Posted : 28 April 2012 13:59:34(UTC)
john black

United States   
Joined: 21/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
... it's the very top of MRR ThumpUpSneaky
I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
UserPostedImage
Offline Frankenbahner  
#18 Posted : 28 April 2012 20:11:35(UTC)
Frankenbahner

Germany   
Joined: 15/09/2006(UTC)
Views messages in topic : 585
Location: Nuremberg, Bavaria
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
...in a certain way we may consider the old direction-reversing relay as the ancestor of digital decoders....(independant reversing instead of... reversing the polarity of the rails...)
I'm with Ray : 3 rails AC works so well...: good electrical capture on the machines.
Also : on the layout, the electrical configuration is so easily "readable"..(by comparison with 2 rails DC/DCC).


The need for reversing units was one of the disadvantages of analog AC. This may have been one of the reasons for the wide success of digital systems among 3-rail railroaders, while still much more people stick to analog in the 2-rail DC fraction. Mechanical reversing units had many technical disadvantages, only think of those flashing lights (when you changed the direction). Or think of those locos, which suddenly changed their direction, when they were running fast.

Let's face it, many people had grown tired of "jumping" locos and flashing lights (okay, if you like nostalgia, this may be a different matter). So in pre-digital age, many "Märkliners" removed the relays from their locos, for a conversion to what was called 3-rail DC: you still ran your trains on 3-rail, but you operated them with DC instead of AC. It was a system which combined the advantages of DC operation with the advantages of the 3-rail system - so you could easily make reversing loops, but your locos didn't "jump" any more, when you changed the direction.

The problems of analog AC could be solved using electronic relays instead of the old mechanical ones, but at about the same time, the first digital systems came on the market. As decoders cost about the same price as a reversing unit, it eventually became more economical for manufacturers, to fit all their AC locos with decoders.

Regards,
Florian
H0 3-rail AC with DCC, MM and mfx, 2-rail DC streetcars, and N gauge
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by Frankenbahner
Offline kbvrod  
#19 Posted : 28 April 2012 20:40:15(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,596
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi Florian,all,


> This may have been one of the reasons for the wide success of digital systems among 3-rail railroaders, while still much more people stick to analog in the 2-rail DC fraction.<

Märklin,to be fair was the first mass producer of model railroads to offer ready to run digital loks.I have to disagree that DC modelers -stick- with analog control.I can't speak for everyone,but many DCC lists I am on seem to embrace digital,even those other 3 railers,......Lionel!BigGrin

>Let's face it, many people had grown tired of "jumping" locos and flashing lights (okay, if you like nostalgia, this may be a different matter). So in pre-digital age, many "Märkliners" removed the relays from their locos, for a conversion to what was called 3-rail DC: you still ran your trains on 3-rail, but you operated them with DC instead of AC. It was a system which combined the advantages of DC operation with the advantages of the 3-rail system - so you could easily make reversing loops, but your locos didn't "jump" any more, when you changed the direction.<

I have seen that,....

Best,Dr Dirt.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#20 Posted : 28 April 2012 21:37:15(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 13,753
Location: New Zealand
I like the 3-rail AC system because...............of Eau Du Märklin............the ozone smell you get when you run the old time locos! ThumpUp
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#21 Posted : 28 April 2012 21:42:19(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 13,753
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: 20-VOLT-AC Go to Quoted Post
Digital DCC should not be mentioned in this forum as it is a modern standard of railway control.



I think you broke your own rule with your very first post in this thread!

How else do the lights stay on when the loco is stopped, if not for digital control (apart from the neutral reverse function Cookee mentions, which I never knew of before).
Offline jeehring  
#22 Posted : 28 April 2012 21:44:54(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,739
Location: ,
3 rails DC was from TRIX EXPRESS too.
May be you are looking at the reverse unit with yours eyes of today....
Back to the 60's : the independant reversing was given more flexibility VS two rails DC...that's my opinion.
Have you ever dealt with DC with all those track sections with different polarities (and the problem of loks placed in the wrong direction...) ???.....a nightmare ...
FRom a conceptual pt of view I also find that reversing polarities of the whole section of rails is poorer...
When the reverse unit became electronical then we were very close to digital : the first decoders = a reverse unit + an adress...
Offline 3rail4life  
#23 Posted : 29 April 2012 02:50:18(UTC)
3rail4life

United States   
Joined: 23/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 289
Location: Northern California
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
I like the 3-rail AC system because...............of Eau Du Märklin............the ozone smell you get when you run the old time locos! ThumpUp


ThumpUp ThumpUp ThumpUp I think this the real reason for me.

Gordon
Offline eberhardt  
#24 Posted : 02 June 2012 16:29:56(UTC)
eberhardt


Joined: 06/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 22
Location: Newcastle under Lyme
Solid, reliable, excellent build quality. Logical system, (I'm no genius). My first set was 3 rail in the early fifties, (Nostalgia) Also, I recently got back from my ex. all my Marklin, it had been in her attic for thirty years with no special protection. As soon as I got home I laid a large circle of track, gave it a quick wipe with a track rubber, (studs as well), plugged 'er in and my little BR89 kicked into life and chugged round the track. I only have three loco's, two BR89's and a little Primex shunter, but after all those years of neglect, they didn't hiccup once. The boxed rolling stock has a few tiny spots of rust, but I'm not worried about it, I'll have a cleaning session. All I have to do now is sell off a few thousand pounds worth of British 'N' gauge so I can buy some more Marklin. BigGrin BigGrin
Offline foumaro  
#25 Posted : 03 June 2012 03:04:35(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 3,558
Location: ATHENS-GREECE
it's simply the best,better of all the rest.
Offline river6109  
#26 Posted : 03 June 2012 04:01:34(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 10,766
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I had an Australian 2 rail set for my son once but it kept stopping, (most probably dirty track or contact points.

3 rail is ok and that's all I ever have known.

these days, I'm lucky I use 2 rail DC locos (electrics) and get the power from the overhead system and all I do combine the 2 wires (+) + (-) .

Reversing loop is not an issue to day with 2 rail (digital or electronically controlled) but it saves you on extra costs.

One thing I would like to see is an improved 3rd rail system, whereas the sleeper becomes part of the 3rd rail and somesort of a ballbearing is used for the slider to go over the sleepers (less friction) but I'm not sure about the noise level and there is the issue going over tunrouts.

So who is the first one who will design a project like this ?

regards.,
John
http://www.youtube.com/river6109
http://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline TrainIride  
#27 Posted : 03 June 2012 20:16:11(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 22/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,037
Location: FRANCE
...because it's the most reliable system, I think.
The slider cleans the contact dots, grond return is everywhere.
I'm certainly not a purist, but I enjoy model train that runs well ans never derails.
I especially like M-tracks for they "tin-plate" feel.
And of course, my layout is ended by two reverse loops. So cool ThumpUp .
And the last thing, the fabulous contact tracks:





Regards
Joël



Marklin HO - M track & C track - Analog mode - DC locos conversion to AC - http://www.marklin-users.net/TrainIride - my channel : http://www.youtube.com/user/2mes2mains
Offline Artologic  
#28 Posted : 15 June 2012 08:31:22(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 356
For me I really like the reliable system, the vintage stuff (m rail and old loco s) and especially that the old models are made to run, run really long! Also spares are still easily found most of the time, even if the loco is +50years old. The fact some loco s have telex or dual sleeper makes it even better :-)
Offline sikardon  
#29 Posted : 23 June 2012 05:01:39(UTC)
sikardon

Indonesia   
Joined: 05/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 169
I like the 3-rail AC system because... I have been infected by Marklinistis... a very powerful disease...

*ups... I'm sorry if I'm OOT... BigGrin Blushing
Users browsing this topic
Guest
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2014, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 1.518 seconds.