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Offline NS1200  
#1 Posted : 21 March 2012 19:46:36(UTC)
NS1200


Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,931
German clip about the recovery of 3 Swedish steamlocomotives recovered from a forgotten strategic reserve.
Idea behind the storage was that when all electric power would be gone during war actions,traffic by rail would still be possible.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=...mF7s&feature=related

Sorry,language is German.

Enjoy!
Paul.
Maerklin:the dream will live on!
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Offline Western Pacific  
#2 Posted : 21 March 2012 20:57:20(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 770
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
German clip about the recovery of 3 Swedish steamlocomotives recovered from a forgotten strategic reserve.
Idea behind the storage was that when all electric power would be gone during war actions,traffic by rail would still be possible.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=...mF7s&feature=related

Sorry,language is German.

Enjoy!
Paul.


A minor remark. The strategic reserve was by no means forgotten. The army and ministry of defense knew which locos they had stored and where. The problem they were facing was that unlike when the locos were put away, there are very few engine drivers who know how to drive an old steam engine, since the last ones were taken out of regular service sometime in the mid 1960-ies and they had only been used on secondary lines. So the two factors lack of engine drivers and the end of the cold war meant that this strategic reserve were deemed not appropriate any more.

The museum railway associations that bought these steam engines paid SEK 1,000:- (approximately € 100:-) for each of them, so almost half what a similar H0 loco from Märklin would cost.

It could also be pointed out that all main lines in southern Sweden were electrified between WWI and WWII and the main line to northern Sweden during WWII. This was a result from shortage of coal during WWI, since Sweden has to import coal and although Sweden didn't take part in the war, Sweden was still suffering shortage of various import goods. Then, given that Sweden has quite a number of rivers that can be used for hydroelectric plants, it made sense to electrify the railways.
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Offline Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS  
#3 Posted : 21 March 2012 21:34:40(UTC)
Oliver SBB-CFF-FFS

Sweden   
Joined: 22/06/2011(UTC)
Posts: 483
This is a very interesting thread to follow. I had no idea that a reserve like that existed. It makes me wonder if there are more treasures like these just waiting to be found or rediscovered?
SBB - BLS - ÖBB - SNCF - FS Era IV - VI



Offline GSRR  
#4 Posted : 21 March 2012 21:38:31(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
Originally Posted by: Western Pacific Go to Quoted Post

A minor remark. The strategic reserve was by no means forgotten. The army and ministry of defense knew which locos they had stored and where. The problem they were facing was that unlike when the locos were put away, there are very few engine drivers who know how to drive an old steam engine, since the last ones were taken out of regular service sometime in the mid 1960-ies and they had only been used on secondary lines. So the two factors lack of engine drivers and the end of the cold war meant that this strategic reserve were deemed not appropriate any more.

The museum railway associations that bought these steam engines paid SEK 1,000:- (approximately € 100:-) for each of them, so almost half what a similar H0 loco from Märklin would cost.

It could also be pointed out that all main lines in southern Sweden were electrified between WWI and WWII and the main line to northern Sweden during WWII. This was a result from shortage of coal during WWI, since Sweden has to import coal and although Sweden didn't take part in the war, Sweden was still suffering shortage of various import goods. Then, given that Sweden has quite a number of rivers that can be used for hydroelectric plants, it made sense to electrify the railways.




Per,

could you possibly identify the 3 loks, and what museums they went to?


Any idea how long they were in storage, they looked remarkably good?

r/Thomas
ETE UserPostedImage ECoS iTrain TouchCab C-Gleis German Era Id & IIIb USA Era IIIb SBB Era III SJ Era IV GC Era V
Offline xxup  
#5 Posted : 22 March 2012 01:39:13(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 6,827
Location: Australia
What would stop them converting the locos to run on wood during a war? There seem to be plenty of trees in Sweden..

Run out of wood:
1. Stop loco.
2. Grab axe.
3. Chop down tree. (away from the rail line and loco preferably)
4. Fill tender with wood.
5. Move off.

In Australia, you can pay money and be an engine driver for a day.. While this would not make you an expert on driving a steam engine, it would increase the capability in the community to drive engines in war time and ensure that the engines were always ready for action..
Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
Offline kariosls37  
#6 Posted : 22 March 2012 04:22:27(UTC)
kariosls37

New Zealand   
Joined: 02/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,066
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Nice video. This would be a restorer's dream, 3 complete locos that have been stored under cover in a state where they could be lit up. I found it quite interesting that these locos were allowed to be moved such a distance in a dedicated train of other old equipment. For starters, anything without bogies would not be allowed readily on the system here without some thorough checking and a heap of paperwork for a one-off occasion, and the system is a lot less busy than the line featured here.

I have heard of some Dutch engines being sent to North Korea after they were left behind in Eastern Europe after WW2, so who knows, more stuff may be out there. Recently a fair bit of old Dutch rolling stock that went missing during WW2 has also been recovered from Eastern Europe as well, although most of it was not in nearly as good a nick as these engines.

Adrian, brining a loco up to steam with wood is the way to do it. However, the trouble comes when you are trying to maintain pressure on a hard-working engine. for a locomotive such as the ones in the video the trip after filling up would go as follows

1) depart with full head of steam
2) watch pressure steadily drop while throwing in wood like mad
3) stop to build up pressure
4) repeat 2 and 3 until you run out of wood
5) head to local forest to cut more wood

The famous 4-4-0 american locos were often fired with wood, and it usually took a fireman plus a wood carrier on the loco to keep up with the demands of the boiler. Imagine what would happen on a loco more than twice the size...

Cheers,
Rick
Offline Western Pacific  
#7 Posted : 22 March 2012 07:59:15(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 770
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
Originally Posted by: GSRR Go to Quoted Post


Per,

could you possibly identify the 3 loks, and what museums they went to?


Any idea how long they were in storage, they looked remarkably good?

r/Thomas



The loks are all class B, having individual numbers 1037, 1108 and 1267.

1037 is from 1910 and was bought by Bergslagernas Järnvägssällskap in Göteborg (Gothenburg).

BJ's home page. In Swedish only, but for those of you who can read Swedish (or try a translation service), go to "Morrgans blogg" and "Juli, 2008", where you can find more about the expedition.

Some pictures from when it was under steam again on December 20th, 2008 after having been undergoing refurbishment by the BJ can be found here. From the first test runs on January 24th, 2009 can be found here.


1108 is from 1911 and was bought by the Sveriges Järnvägsmuseum (Swedish Railway museum) in Gävle. The home page of the museum is only in Swedish. The only other information I could find was that the 1108 is undergoing re-tubing.


1267 is from 1915 and was bought by Stockholms Kultursällskap för Ånga och Järnväg, SKÅJ.

SKÅJ's home page is also in Swedish only. They have included the 1267 in their listing of steam loks (ånglok) but I haven't found any photos.


More about class B loks (in Swedish) can be found here. (The years of production given above come from this list, because I believe the German speaker had got it wrong somehow).


How long they had been in storage. I don't know exactly, but the speaker is probably pretty close when he states 50 years.

Edited by user 22 March 2012 08:22:38(UTC)  | Reason: Typo

Offline Western Pacific  
#8 Posted : 22 March 2012 08:20:43(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 770
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
Originally Posted by: kariosls37 Go to Quoted Post
Nice video. This would be a restorer's dream, 3 complete locos that have been stored under cover in a state where they could be lit up. I found it quite interesting that these locos were allowed to be moved such a distance in a dedicated train of other old equipment. For starters, anything without bogies would not be allowed readily on the system here without some thorough checking and a heap of paperwork for a one-off occasion, and the system is a lot less busy than the line featured here.

....

Cheers,
Rick


The loks were thoroughly inspected and greased before storing them, since they had been prepared for being "mothballed" and should be ready for use in case of a war situation, with a minimum of maintenance before being put in service. On top of that they were evidently inspected before being towed south and the speaker says they would be towed at a maximum speed of 60 km/h.

On the topic of being wood fired, the Swedish Wikipedia states that a few could be converted at war time, but irrespective of whether that is correct or not, in order to get sufficient heat out of wood it must be well dried before. If you chop down a tree and try to burn it directly much of the heat generated would just be used to dry the logs themselves and it is questionable it the remaining heat would be able to generate steam.

As a final side remark: B-loks have been sold to tourist and museum railways also outside Sweden, in Germany, the Netherlands, England and USA.
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Offline GSRR  
#9 Posted : 22 March 2012 11:10:42(UTC)
GSRR

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,339
Location: USA
Originally Posted by: Western Pacific Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: GSRR Go to Quoted Post


Per,

could you possibly identify the 3 loks, and what museums they went to?


Any idea how long they were in storage, they looked remarkably good?

r/Thomas



The loks are all class B, having individual numbers 1037, 1108 and 1267.

1037 is from 1910 and was bought by Bergslagernas Järnvägssällskap in Göteborg (Gothenburg).

BJ's home page. In Swedish only, but for those of you who can read Swedish (or try a translation service), go to "Morrgans blogg" and "Juli, 2008", where you can find more about the expedition.

Some pictures from when it was under steam again on December 20th, 2008 after having been undergoing refurbishment by the BJ can be found here. From the first test runs on January 24th, 2009 can be found here.


1108 is from 1911 and was bought by the Sveriges Järnvägsmuseum (Swedish Railway museum) in Gävle. The home page of the museum is only in Swedish. The only other information I could find was that the 1108 is undergoing re-tubing.


1267 is from 1915 and was bought by Stockholms Kultursällskap för Ånga och Järnväg, SKÅJ.

SKÅJ's home page is also in Swedish only. They have included the 1267 in their listing of steam loks (ånglok) but I haven't found any photos.


More about class B loks (in Swedish) can be found here. (The years of production given above come from this list, because I believe the German speaker had got it wrong somehow).


How long they had been in storage. I don't know exactly, but the speaker is probably pretty close when he states 50 years.






Thank you Per.



r/Thomas



ETE UserPostedImage ECoS iTrain TouchCab C-Gleis German Era Id & IIIb USA Era IIIb SBB Era III SJ Era IV GC Era V
Offline NS1200  
#10 Posted : 22 March 2012 19:15:34(UTC)
NS1200


Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,931
Per,

The reason for a strategic reserve is to have means of transport when all other means of transport have failed.
In case of war,electric railways are a prime target for the enemy (which enemy i do not know) because it is fairly simple to destroy power stations and/or overhead current lines so that no electric railoperation is possible.
Hence the need to keep a small stock of steam and/or diesel trains.
I do recall a story that allied bombers disrupted the electric overhead lines in southern Germany during WW2 by throwing metal cables over the overhead lines,causing instant shortcircuiting and as such stopping of all electric railtraffic.

Anyway,putting all ugly aspects of war aside,what about this one:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=...WAUw&feature=related

Swedish steamloco's operated in Holland,i do know the steamclub ZLSM in the south of Limburg at least have two of them,including a baby blue one!
Nice machines,i like their shape,the tender reminds me of the DB BR23 tender.

Paul.

Edited by user 22 March 2012 19:29:16(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Maerklin:the dream will live on!
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Offline steventrain  
#11 Posted : 22 March 2012 20:02:16(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 27,137
Location: Northern Ireland
Excellent video, Paul.
Largest marklinist Layout with Centrail station 2/Mobile station 2/60174 boosters/C-Tracks/K-Tracks/Favorites class BR01, BR23, BR50/Insider Club membership since 2004.
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Offline Western Pacific  
#12 Posted : 22 March 2012 22:05:27(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 770
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Per,

The reason for a strategic reserve is to have means of transport when all other means of transport have failed.
In case of war,electric railways are a prime target for the enemy (which enemy i do not know) because it is fairly simple to destroy power stations and/or overhead current lines so that no electric railoperation is possible.
Hence the need to keep a small stock of steam and/or diesel trains.
I do recall a story that allied bombers disrupted the electric overhead lines in southern Germany during WW2 by throwing metal cables over the overhead lines,causing instant shortcircuiting and as such stopping of all electric railtraffic.

Anyway,putting all ugly aspects of war aside,what about this one:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=...WAUw&feature=related

Swedish steamloco's operated in Holland,i do know the steamclub ZLSM in the south of Limburg at least have two of them,including a baby blue one!
Nice machines,i like their shape,the tender reminds me of the DB BR23 tender.

Paul.


Thanks Paul,

Regarding strategic reserve. Besides the possibility of taking out the electric supply, there is a much greater risk in rail lines being interrupted by taking out some strategically placed bridges. In that case it doesn't help if you have steam or diesel loks as strategic reserve.
I you have a look at a railway line map of Sweden, in particular if you look at one showing lines built by the State Railways in the 19th century, then you'll see that they were mostly built relatively far inland. The reason being that the military wanted them to be out of reach from the most far reaching weapons of that time - battle ships and their guns. (Even if Sweden started building railways late, in 1856, was when the first railway lines were built. It should be pointed out that in 1809, Sweden had lost, what was earlier known as its eastern half, now Finland, to Russia and it had become a Grand duchy under the Tsar. So to the military there was a potential threat from Russia along the whole eatern coast of Sweden). Looking at SJ AB's current network map, where they currently offer passenger service one can note that the line along the west coast south of Gothenburg (Göteborg) was originally not a State railway line and the same goes for the line on the east coast from Gävle to Sundsvall.

Thank you for mentioning the ZLSM. I googled them and found their home page and list of steam engines and it turns out that in addition to the two class B they also have two other ex SJ loks an E and one E2.

The YouTube shows the ZLSM B 1289 in a green livery that I believe it never had in Sweden, but I can be wrong, anyhow I think it looks very good. I don't know much about what colours were used on Swedish steam loks, but I assume they were not all black initially. This photo shows an SJ class F, being part of the collections of Sveriges Järnvägsmusem in Gävle:
F1200
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Offline intruder  
#13 Posted : 22 March 2012 23:21:25(UTC)
intruder

Norway   
Joined: 16/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 5,532
Location: Akershus, Norway
Thanks for the very interesting link, NS1200!

And for the additional useful informaton and links from he rest of you.
Best regards Svein, Norway
grumpy old sod
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Offline BR01097  
#14 Posted : 23 March 2012 04:19:02(UTC)
BR01097

United States   
Joined: 17/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 221
Location: Denver, Colo. USA
Quote:


1037 is from 1910 and was bought by Bergslagernas Järnvägssällskap in Göteborg (Gothenburg).

1108 is from 1911 and was bought by the Sveriges Järnvägsmuseum (Swedish Railway museum) in Gävle.


1267 is from 1915 and was bought by Stockholms Kultursällskap för Ånga och Järnväg, SKÅJ.






Although the conical smokebox was partly a give-away, it was very clear in the light of day fallen upon the streamlined cab these were century-old locomotives being pulled from their slumber. From a strategic reserve of The Cold War, one expect to see something more robust, such as a BR52, than a locomotive as graceful as and akin to "The Grande Dame of Württemburg." Those pulled out of the sheds are also express engines, rather impractical for military purposes. Could they have been stored and forgotten actually in World War II during the year the Nazis were using the Swedish Railways during their incursion into Russia?

Nonetheless, this rare and surprising find will bring much joy for decades to those who may never have seen a steam locomotive on the modern system. Presumably they are all in fair functioning order.


Edited by user 23 March 2012 04:28:35(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified


____________________________________________________________________________

Collector of Märklin fine-quality trains since 1966.




Offline Western Pacific  
#15 Posted : 23 March 2012 07:55:59(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 770
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
Originally Posted by: BR01097 Go to Quoted Post





Although the conical smokebox was partly a give-away, it was very clear in the light of day fallen upon the streamlined cab these were century-old locomotives being pulled from their slumber. From a strategic reserve of The Cold War, one expect to see something more robust, such as a BR52, than a locomotive as graceful as and akin to "The Grande Dame of Württemburg." Those pulled out of the sheds are also express engines, rather impractical for military purposes. Could they have been stored and forgotten actually in World War II during the year the Nazis were using the Swedish Railways during their incursion into Russia?

Nonetheless, this rare and surprising find will bring much joy for decades to those who may never have seen a steam locomotive on the modern system. Presumably they are all in fair functioning order.




Alexander,

In part I can agree with you that one could have expected a more recent design like the BR 52. Then one must also realize that Sweden, unlike many other countries in Europe was never occupied by Germany during WWII and for that reason no BR 52 came to remain in Sweden after the war, as was the case in for instance Norway, to just name Sweden's western neighbour.

The Swedish class B was designed taking inspiration from the Prussian P8 loco and 96 locos were delivered in 1909 through 1919. It was designed for fast freight train and heavy passenger train duties and it proved itself very soon to be very good in all types of train service. A private line had another 3 built in 1943 and 1944 and they came to the State Railways, SJ, when that line was nationalized after WWII.

From what I've read on the pages of ZLSM (in Dutch) is that a number of the SJ class B received new welded boilers in the 1950-ies. ZLSM also states: "The B 1289 at the SJ served until 1970 and then entered the military strategic reserve from 1970 to 1992."

So my belief is that the class B was a steam loco, available in relatively large numbers, many of them had relatively new boilers and thus being among the most modern steam locos in Sweden. The large number available meant that servicing them would be feasible and an option could always be to use some of them for spare parts to keep the rest rolling in case of war.

Finally, I agree fully with you on that they: " ... will bring much joy for decades to those who may never have seen a steam locomotive on the modern system."

Per
Offline NS1200  
#16 Posted : 23 March 2012 20:17:42(UTC)
NS1200


Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,931
Originally Posted by: BR01097 Go to Quoted Post
Quote:


1037 is from 1910 and was bought by Bergslagernas Järnvägssällskap in Göteborg (Gothenburg).

1108 is from 1911 and was bought by the Sveriges Järnvägsmuseum (Swedish Railway museum) in Gävle.


1267 is from 1915 and was bought by Stockholms Kultursällskap för Ånga och Järnväg, SKÅJ.






Although the conical smokebox was partly a give-away, it was very clear in the light of day fallen upon the streamlined cab these were century-old locomotives being pulled from their slumber. From a strategic reserve of The Cold War, one expect to see something more robust, such as a BR52, than a locomotive as graceful as and akin to "The Grande Dame of Württemburg." Those pulled out of the sheds are also express engines, rather impractical for military purposes. Could they have been stored and forgotten actually in World War II during the year the Nazis were using the Swedish Railways during their incursion into Russia?

Nonetheless, this rare and surprising find will bring much joy for decades to those who may never have seen a steam locomotive on the modern system. Presumably they are all in fair functioning order.




Dear BR01097,

Some basic knowledge about history in Europe:
Russia invaded Finland during the winter of 1939/1940,they got a beating by the brave Finnish forces,as such Finland became enemy of Russia,Finnish planes even showed the infamous Swastika cross on the wings!
Nazi Germany invaded Poland in September 1939 and as such became enemy of England and France.
Nazi Germany invaded France,Belgium,Holland,Denmark and Norway in May 1940,Sweden and Finland were not invaded.
Nazi Germany invaded Russia in July 1941 (operation Barbarossa),as such Finland became the reluctant (!) 'allies' of Nazi Germany.

WW 2 in Europe started in September 1939 and ended in May 1945.
The BR52 was nicknamed 'Kriegslokomotieve' (=warlocomotive) because it was developed during 1943 as a cheaper alternative for more complicated models.
Because of shortage of materials,every attempt was made to keep the design as simple as possible.
A remarkable number were built,under very difficult circumstances.
Because Sweden was neutral in WW2,it is highly unlikely that german locomotives like BR52 have ever operated in Sweden.

For Nazi Germany there was no need to invade Russia via Sweden,that would have been very illogical,with all the water between Sweden and Finland.
Instead,Nazi Germany attacked Russia with overwelming power over a wide front at the Polish/Russian border.
The german advance was stopped at the cities of Leningrad in the north (nowadays called Sint Petersburg),Moscow in the centre,and Stalingrad (nowadays called Volgagrad) in the south.

The Cold War is something different from WW2.
The cold war has to do with the splitting up of Europe between allied powers in the west and eastblock power in the east.
Russia was afraid that allies would try to get control over the Balkan states in the south (Bulgaria,Rumania etc.).
Allies were afraid Russia would try to control west europe.
This Cold War started in 1945 and ended somewhere in the late fifties.
The real end came in 1989,when the separation wall in Berlin was broken down.
The term Cold War means that no actual fighting took place,it was war written on paper,a race of building up (atomic) weapon stocks with the only purpose to have more weapons than the other party.

Paul.

Edited by user 24 March 2012 07:41:05(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Maerklin:the dream will live on!
Offline NS1200  
#17 Posted : 24 March 2012 08:08:06(UTC)
NS1200


Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,931
And another HD clip of the beautiful Swedish steamloco.
Note it was built in Trollhattan in 1916.
Trollhattan later became hometown for SAAB (planes and later cars).

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqhYOQ_pQ-E

Enjoy!
Paul.
Maerklin:the dream will live on!
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Offline Western Pacific  
#18 Posted : 24 March 2012 11:27:10(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 770
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
And another HD clip of the beautiful Swedish steamloco.
Note it was built in Trollhattan in 1916.
Trollhattan later became hometown for SAAB (planes and later cars).

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqhYOQ_pQ-E

Enjoy!
Paul.


One could add that Nydqvist & Holm AB, which built the class B steam locos is the same company that built the Nohab diesels. Well known in this forum and as Märklin models.

The hometown for planes is Linköping since 1939. SAAB AB is a Swedish defense and security company that after WWII saw a need to also move into civilian production. The first SAAB cars were developed in Linköping and the first car was presented in 1947. Production started in 1949 in Trollhättan. The car company, SAAB Automobile was 50% owned by GM from 1990 and 100% from 2000 to 2010, when it was bought by the Dutch company Spyker cars. It is the SAAB Automobile company that is in bankruptcy, not the defense company, and only future can tell if SAAB Automobile can emerge again or if the lasts SAABs have been built.
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