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Offline FMS  
#1 Posted : 04 December 2011 22:19:10(UTC)
FMS


Joined: 01/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 832
Location: PT
Hi there!

To control my trains and layout i used MS1 and nowadays MS2.
The operation is quite simple, as long as i don't leave the MS unattended Smile

I would like to learn and go further and introduce some automatic solutions to make trains slow down, stop and allow other trains to pass and then start to run again.
I know that this block wiring might be the simple solution.

I don't know much about wiring or electricity or electronics Confused
But i would like very much to learn how to, i just need good teachers to be able to do it by myself...i guess this is
the right place.

Could you please teach me about how to?

Thanks in advance
Regards
FMS
Offline Fredrik  
#2 Posted : 05 December 2011 02:17:48(UTC)
Fredrik

Sweden   
Joined: 13/07/2004(UTC)
Posts: 656
I think you should start looking at computer control... I know that's not what you really asked for - but I think that's where you'll end up in the long term... Thus saving you some time (and money) to find the solutions for what you wish to accomplish I suggest the solution whíth which you can make all of it (and more) happen.

Although expensive at the start - over time computer control will be cheaper than all the other equipment you will have to buy to accomplish some of the tasks possible with a computer software.

My 2 cents...
Fredrik.

* ECoS 2 + ECoSDetector + SwitchPilot + ECoSTerminal, *CS2 3.7.0 (0) + CdB

WWW: RailNET
Offline Nielsenr  
#3 Posted : 05 December 2011 03:32:15(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 820
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
FMS,

Doing those things are quite easy when you can do routes like in the CS2 or equivalent. Unfortunately, the MS1/2 can't do routes as far as I know.

If you want to do it without a CS2, I would suggest you try and find the Marklin Electrical Manual (07421 in English, German Dutch and French versions are available) and The Marklin Signal Book (03402 in English, also available in the languages listed above). These two books, although somewhat dated will give you the some of the information to get you started.

Although computer control does open up additional possibilities, I think you still need a CS2 or equivalent for the computer program to "talk" to the locos and accessories.

And that's my two cents worth ... now you have four cents worth of opinions!! LOL!!

Good Luck!!

Robert
Offline Fredrik  
#4 Posted : 05 December 2011 09:38:35(UTC)
Fredrik

Sweden   
Joined: 13/07/2004(UTC)
Posts: 656
No - the MS2 doesn't handle routes (and the way I see it, routes of CS2 could also be better), but there is a possibility to control "it" (actually the trackbox) from a computer! Off-course a CS2 gives more options - but it's still possible.

However - to create such automatic features without using a computer will require quite some different electronic modules such as (IMHO: unneccessary) braking modules, and probably relays as well as a lot of wiring. And this will soon end up in a lot of $$$. And that's where I think going for computer control immidiately saves cash.

Don't know the exact "amount" of tracks being equipped with such electronics to "match up" with a CS2 and computer control, but say 10-15... And you will have the option of a lot more than 15 with a computer software!

But it's still possible without computer! That's just not my field... Wink
Fredrik.

* ECoS 2 + ECoSDetector + SwitchPilot + ECoSTerminal, *CS2 3.7.0 (0) + CdB

WWW: RailNET
Offline jeehring  
#5 Posted : 05 December 2011 12:50:02(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,753
Location: ,
Originally Posted by: Fredrik Go to Quoted Post
I think you should start looking at computer control... I know that's not what you really asked for - but I think that's where you'll end up in the long term... Thus saving you some time (and money) to find the solutions for what you wish to accomplish I suggest the solution whíth which you can make all of it (and more) happen.

Although expensive at the start - over time computer control will be cheaper than all the other equipment you will have to buy to accomplish some of the tasks possible with a computer software.

My 2 cents...

...but you must know that PC option will lead you in a completely different way of playing...For instance the use of signals : signals become an element of scenery only.
With a PC you will spend most of your time in front of a screen. The goal will be to verify that 1/what you have been programming on your computer also works on the layout...2/ what you see on the computer screen is matching what you get on the layout.
Without computer : all solutions comes from the track & you "work" full time on the track + dedicated control items. You play with accessories only. Signals became a real item for control and real way of controlling trafic.....All the time you should spend in front of the screen will be spent exclusively on your layout.
With or without PC = 2 completely different approaches. Not the same fun.
If you really like PC things, train model will become a good pretext to play with your PC
If you like the railways thing, a PC without touch screen can easily become an obstacle between you and your layout excepted if you have a veeeeery big layout. As time goes by there is more and more embedded "intelligence" into miniaturized railway items .

Edited by user 05 December 2011 13:22:43(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Online cookee_nz  
#6 Posted : 06 December 2011 03:01:57(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 2,011
Location: Wellington
Originally Posted by: Nielsenr Go to Quoted Post
FMS,

Doing those things are quite easy when you can do routes like in the CS2 or equivalent. Unfortunately, the MS1/2 can't do routes as far as I know.

If you want to do it without a CS2, I would suggest you try and find the Marklin Electrical Manual (07421 in English, German Dutch and French versions are available) and The Marklin Signal Book (03402 in English, also available in the languages listed above). These two books, although somewhat dated will give you the some of the information to get you started.

Although computer control does open up additional possibilities, I think you still need a CS2 or equivalent for the computer program to "talk" to the locos and accessories.

And that's my two cents worth ... now you have four cents worth of opinions!! LOL!!

Good Luck!!

Robert


I second this, the signal books cover it very well and while I agree about Computer Control, it pays to have a good grasp on analogue automation anyway, especially for block signals.

1: You can still use block signalling with Digital
2: Block signalling will require you to install some form of track detection, and wire the signals for isolation which makes Computer control a lot more versatile.

Back in my very early days of digital & PC control I vowed that I would try wherever possible to prevent any run-past of a red signal by wiring and isolating the adjacent track to that signal. It could be argued that this takes away the 'control' over the layout, but frankly, I'd rather have this somewhat artificial scenario than a collision.

Even in real life we are starting to see more and more railways which employ such a safety device so that if for whatever reason the driver/train does slip through, the train itself is still brought to a halt.

Some years ago now, I held a simple clinic for the MMRC in which I had a long length of straight track, isolated into 4 blocks with light signals. I simply wanted to show one train chasing another to demonstrate the concept. It was simple and very effective.

Good luck with it

Cheers

Cookee
Melbourne
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline FMS  
#7 Posted : 06 December 2011 23:03:24(UTC)
FMS


Joined: 01/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 832
Location: PT
Guys...thank you so much!
If the €uro makes trough all this cents will help a lotSmile

I don't have those M manuals, so is there a place where i can see and study some simple schematics about stop a train at a turnout to let the other pass, or to stop a train at a station and then make him continue, etc?

Once again tks for your patience!
Regards
FMS
Online cookee_nz  
#8 Posted : 07 December 2011 06:49:27(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 2,011
Location: Wellington
Originally Posted by: FMS Go to Quoted Post
Guys...thank you so much!
If the €uro makes trough all this cents will help a lotSmile

I don't have those M manuals, so is there a place where i can see and study some simple schematics about stop a train at a turnout to let the other pass, or to stop a train at a station and then make him continue, etc?

Once again tks for your patience!


The older 446 Signal Manual is available to download from Marklin USA at this link....

ftp://ftp.marklin.com/pub/Old%20Manuals

Look under "Model Signal Booklet", download all the pages and see how you go - it's about 2.5mb in total but will be a good start.

Easier to answer questions based on what you do or don't understand from this starting point.

Don't be scared off by the older signals and track shown, the basic wiring and concepts have not changed.

You need to create an isolated section in your track - usually by interrupting the center rail at two locations (the start and end of the isolated section)

So if you can imagine a length of say 6 straight track lengths, and the middle two have the center conductor cut at the join with the two left track and the two right tracks....

| = track joins
X = isolated center rail

....|------|-----X-----|-----X-----|-----|....


So there is still power at the left and right sections either side of the "X", but nothing to the area between the 2 "X". And when the train gets to this section it will stop.

Now you take a wire attached to the center rail anywhere between the two "X". If you join that to the center rail OUTSIDE either X, you will have power again to the isolated section and the train will start.

You could simply wire a switch into the connection between the isolated and powered sections and have a very basic manually controlled stop point.

But Marklin Signals already contain a set of switches inside which are open or closed depending on whether the signal is Red or Green. The signal may have red wires coming out from the switch or red sockets you can connect to.

The built-in signal switch replaces the manual switch I referred to above so when the signal is red, the switch is open, no power to the isolated section. Change to Green and the circuit is complete, trains will pass through.

So that is basically how to start and start trains with a signal (manually controlled).

The next step is making the operation of the signal automatic with a passing train. This is simpler, you are simply replacing (or duplicating) the old Blue control push buttons
with track contacts - either the 'flipper' type Contact Track (directional) or with a Circuit track using the isolated outer rail.

I have a newer signal manual here with some good diagrams, I'll see if I can find and scan the relevant pages which should help - a picture paints 1000 words as they say

Hope this helps

Cookee
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Online cookee_nz  
#9 Posted : 07 December 2011 06:56:47(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 2,011
Location: Wellington
Here's scans of the relevant sections of the 0316 Signal Manual from 1970.

Although it's written around K-track and accessories, the system is the same.

I have not looked into the newer C-track signals in detail but my understanding is once again, the basic principals still apply.

Good luck, any questions, just ask.

Cheers

Cookee
Melbourne
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Online cookee_nz  
#10 Posted : 07 December 2011 06:58:23(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 2,011
Location: Wellington
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Online cookee_nz  
#11 Posted : 07 December 2011 07:00:14(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 2,011
Location: Wellington
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Offline FMS  
#12 Posted : 08 December 2011 16:35:54(UTC)
FMS


Joined: 01/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 832
Location: PT
Cookee, thank you so much!!!!Smile Smile Smile

If i need help i will keep you posted!

TKS!!!
Regards
FMS
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