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Offline Macfire  
#51 Posted : 22 May 2008 01:12:49(UTC)
Macfire


Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,652
Location: New Zealand
My Two Bob’s worth:

Originally posted by Dr. Dirt:
I's (sic) rather send out my thoughts and prayers to the thousands of people killed then worry about the Maklin (sic) factory being damaged.

I’m sure we all feel for the earthquake victims, that is what makes us humankind after all. I am sure that the agencies involved are capable even if they are overwhelmed by the magnitude of the disaster.
This site gives an indication of additional hazards following such a disastrous earthquake:
http://earthobservatory....images.php3?img_id=18034


Originally posted by Lutz:
Surely means shipped from there; if it's that what the U.S. govmt (sic) is eager to know.

I am amazed by this statement. Shipped from there after assembly in an EU factory?
Yeah right!

I could as well not care less.

Well I do!
In the old days it was simple. “Made in Western Germany”!
Period.

Originally posted by Lutz:
Nope! Take another close look - otherwise I'll have to open a new thread in the quiz section

Lutz pleased do – to my untrained and uninformed eye I am beggared if I can see any clue.
Unless you mean the serial numbering system / sequence. If so the above statement applies even more so.
(But if you ask me any question on NZ military aircraft in the 2nd Big One, I would be able to quote not only the serial number and history but also its wife’s mother’s maiden name) biggrin

Currently still nearly 90% of all Märklin products are manufactured and delivered from their own factories in Germany/the EU.

Yeah right. I’m with Nev & John on this one. If less than 60% of M*’s rolling stock is being made in China I’ll be surprised.


Originally posted by John Black:
Why can't they be <u>honest to us</u> and tell us clearly where it's made? The only cause we must suspect why M tries to keep its customers in the dark when <u>deleting the country of origin on the loco</u> is they wanna pretend it were still German quality ...

Some people need to face facts – German quality is RAPIDLY becoming a myth.
Just as the sun DID set on the British Empire so too will it set on famed German quality. In both cases it was a pity but inevitable!

Originally posted (earlier) by Nev:
Ray,
I totally agree with you . But I hate it when People say it is made in Germany when it is not the truth .
If it looks good , is strong and runs well It is OK


So where do I stand on this issue?
Simple really - but then this is from a simple colonial from the Antipodes.

In my mind if a product is made in a certain country then bloody well say so.
Same should also apply for assemblies.
Companies need to face facts that consumers are not idiots.
Failure to do so may (will) result in their reputation being permanently damaged.
M* has had a big enough hiding lately maybe if they stood tall and TOLD the WHOLE truth then their respect could start to regain lost ground.

China and Chinese made? Well the ONE issue I have is the blatant coping of brands. It really annoys the hell out of me.
Neither is not a new phenomenon in Asia nor restricted to the Orientals but the flood of imitation goods is reaching plague proportions.
For example, back in the ‘70’s I well remember the copied 'genuine' cassette tapes being rammed under our noses in SE Asia - all Dua Ringgit of course.

I was told a story (unverified) about Hornby setting up a production facility in China. UK management reportedly arrived to check the first production batch and ordered its complete destruction due to shoddy workmanship. The staff were appraised of the way things WOULD be done and the quality that WOULD be maintained and since then the quality has apparently remained first class.
Like I say this story is unverified but if the same standards are maintained by M* then the only problem is the Country of Origin issue – and that cannot be blamed on the Chinese, just the Germans.

To paraphrase Bonaparte – China is a sleeping giant. Beware when she wakes up…
Lord Macca
New Zealand branch of Clan Donald.
Offline spitzenklasse  
#52 Posted : 22 May 2008 01:59:01(UTC)
spitzenklasse


Joined: 06/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,573
Location: ,
It is still Marklin, with a slant. &lt;0&gt;
Hyundai introduced their big Luxury car in Korea as being "German Engineered". "ACHTUNG!"
Offline kbvrod  
#53 Posted : 22 May 2008 03:25:59(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,596
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi all,
Macfire,excellent post and wonderful in it's honesty,I won't respond point for point but thank you for it.Juhan, can I repost on the M B&G? We had a small talk about ICE's in other countries and well, I opened my big mouth[B)]

Dr Dirt
Offline nevw  
#54 Posted : 22 May 2008 03:49:43(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,632
Location: Strathpine QLD
Slightly off topic but following on from Macfires comment about Hornby and Chinese manufacture

Regarding Chinese Quality. A business associate of ours has a Steel mill in China.

The sell and Advertise Chinese Made Steel here in OZ land.

A year ago over a few months there was an increase in the volume and tonnage of reject products. Steel Spec not right , measurement not within Specifications and a few other things.

SO No production bonus was paid in one month. Managers complained about no bonus. Told why. Now no more quality problems and quality has improved.
Moral is Chinese Quality can be good. But DO Not hide the fact that it is made in China.

It is not only the US Government who want to know country of manufacture it is the Consumer

PS: Mercedes originating in Thailand and South Africa have a better build quality than the German Built ones
wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now have a new shiny tin Hip that is badly in Need of Repair
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline Macfire  
#55 Posted : 22 May 2008 07:18:51(UTC)
Macfire


Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,652
Location: New Zealand
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by kbvrod
<br />Hi all,
Macfire,excellent post and wonderful in it's honesty,I won't respond point for point but thank you for it.

[:I] [:I]
Lord Macca
New Zealand branch of Clan Donald.
Offline Hemmerich  
#56 Posted : 22 May 2008 22:35:50(UTC)
Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by nevw
Lutz,
Thanks for that information.

Welcome.
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Have you actually fitted any into the Dining/restaurant cars?

The set which I pictured is dedicated for architect purposes, but the figures are mostly the same which can be found in the standard Preiser offering.

Yes, not only those fit into Märklin dining cars, even the 1:87 ones as shown on the next pictures with the #4153 dining car of one of my sons (of which he is still proud owner today; especially after this and his other older IC coaches are now equipped with short coupling).

If one of my kids could manage this already many years ago without problems or help and any modification to the figures, it should be even less of a problem for much more skillful model railroaders like those here on this forum. There are enough pictures by others who proved it being possible too. wink

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:The Seated Figures that you show do not fit into M Dining Car Seats.

Interesting claim as you don't even have those; it's therefor sufficient to tell you that they fit (rather easy) - actually all six contained in that mold. The reason why I chose those over 1:87 is sole the better match to the coach scale, as can for example be seen by the 1:87 size conductor on the above picture, and that they were much cheaper than small quantities of painted and even unpainted ones.
Offline mmervine  
#57 Posted : 23 May 2008 04:04:52(UTC)
mmervine

United States   
Joined: 30/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,593
Location: Spofford, NH
Lutz:

The 1:100 figures are great! Does anyone know where to get these in the US?

r/mark
Märklin C-track, Digital, ECoS, multi-era French & Swiss
http://www.ete-ene.org/MMLayout.htm
Offline nevw  
#58 Posted : 23 May 2008 05:06:11(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,632
Location: Strathpine QLD

Unfortunately Like Economy Class in Aircraft so has Marklin done the same in the new Dining Cars. NO Leg room.

in the newer Marklin and the new Rheingold Dining Cars there is 1.4mm Height Difference between Seat and Table top.
.5mm between table edge and seat edge
5mm between table edge and seat back .
.5MM between bottom of Table Top and top of Seat.

Not enough leg room room to fit a passenger.. I have added some photos of the newer Dining Cars and you can see the difference between Lutz's and the new Marklin Cars.
I doubt that you would get a 1:100 Figure into those tables.
I did very drastic amputation of a 1:87 figure and would not fit.
Older cars may be OK.
the 2nd Photo is from Lutz to show the difference between new and Old Leg room

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage


UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage
wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now have a new shiny tin Hip that is badly in Need of Repair
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline Larry  
#59 Posted : 23 May 2008 08:09:30(UTC)
Larry

United States   
Joined: 14/11/2003(UTC)
Posts: 1,678
Location: Northeast Ohio
Ah, yes, but you have tablelaps on the new coaches!
Offline nevw  
#60 Posted : 23 May 2008 10:01:03(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,632
Location: Strathpine QLD
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Larry
<br />Ah, yes, but you have tablelaps on the new coaches!

No working ones though. [xx(][:(!] Dummys. biggrin
wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now have a new shiny tin Hip that is badly in Need of Repair
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline David Dewar  
#61 Posted : 23 May 2008 11:29:13(UTC)
David Dewar


Joined: 31/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,029
Location: Scotland
I still just cut off the legs. I think you can buy Preisers or another make without legs... even the manufacturers know coaches are poorly designed. I have some of the newer M Swiss coaches which I like but open them up and the interior is held in place with a piece of tape as the plastic insert does not clip in properly.
We pay plenty for a plastic coach so why not give us a decent interior .. and a metal chassis.

David
Offline nevw  
#62 Posted : 23 May 2008 11:48:30(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,632
Location: Strathpine QLD
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by David Dewar
<br />I still just cut off the legs. I think you can buy Preisers or another make without legs... even the manufacturers know coaches are poorly designed. I have some of the newer M Swiss coaches which I like but open them up and the interior is held in place with a piece of tape as the plastic insert does not clip in properly.
We pay plenty for a plastic coach so why not give us a decent interior .. and a metal chassis.

David


David, despite what Lutz Claims.
In the new M* dining cars YOU CANNOT FIT A persom in the seat even by doing terrible amputations and mutalations.

I have had a set of Dining persons without legs but they cannot be fitted to the new M* dining cars.

Hate to try sit and eat there.
wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now have a new shiny tin Hip that is badly in Need of Repair
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline WelshMatt  
#63 Posted : 23 May 2008 12:01:31(UTC)
WelshMatt


Joined: 06/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by john black
<br />
Forget boxes. The only cause we must suspect why M tries to keep its customers in the dark [xx(]
when <u>deleting the country of origin on the loco</u> is they wanna pretend it were still German quality ...




Ah, but if we all knew for certain it was made in China then we might just object to paying "Made in Germany" prices...biggrin

The problem of figures not fitting into coaches is an old one, and frankly I'm amazed that they still design coaches without any space for passengers. It comes to something when models made twenty years ago are better than brand new ones in that respect! I realise that the essential problem is that HO scale walls need to be thicker than scale to avoid the model collapsing like paper when you handle it, but that's no excuse for the lack of legroom.

Matt from Wales.

When you pay Range Rover prices, don't accept Lada quality
Offline nevw  
#64 Posted : 23 May 2008 12:14:24(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,632
Location: Strathpine QLD
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by David Dewar
<br />I still just cut off the legs. I think you can buy Preisers or another make without legs... even the manufacturers know coaches are poorly designed. I have some of the newer M Swiss coaches which I like but open them up and the interior is held in place with a piece of tape as the plastic insert does not clip in properly.
We pay plenty for a plastic coach so why not give us a decent interior .. and a metal chassis.

David

David,
I have sets of those Passengers from Prieser without legs. they fit wonderfully in the Hag and Flieschmann Carriages BUT NOT M*. Like Cattle Classs on International flights Not enough space. biggrin
wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now have a new shiny tin Hip that is badly in Need of Repair
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline nevw  
#65 Posted : 23 May 2008 12:25:11(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,632
Location: Strathpine QLD
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by WelshMatt
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by john black
<br />
Forget boxes. The only cause we must suspect why M tries to keep its customers in the dark [xx(]
when <u>deleting the country of origin on the loco</u> is they wanna pretend it were still German quality ...




Ah, but if we all knew for certain it was made in China then we might just object to paying "Made in Germany" prices...biggrin

The problem of figures not fitting into coaches is an old one, and frankly I'm amazed that they still design coaches without any space for passengers. It comes to something when models made twenty years ago are better than brand new ones in that respect! I realise that the essential problem is that HO scale walls need to be thicker than scale to avoid the model collapsing like paper when you handle it, but that's no excuse for the lack of legroom.




Matt, Do NOT tell Lutz That he will have a Heart attack. wink m* can do no wrong. [xx(]Coolwink
wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now have a new shiny tin Hip that is badly in Need of Repair
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline RayF  
#66 Posted : 23 May 2008 12:41:45(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,858
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Nev,

Could you explain which is the "problem" dimension which prevents you getting a legless passenger in the seat?

I don't understand what stops you just glueing the passenger's bottom onto the seat after cutting the legs back to the edge of the table.

Ray
Ray

Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline David Dewar  
#67 Posted : 23 May 2008 17:01:26(UTC)
David Dewar


Joined: 31/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,029
Location: Scotland
Ray Thats what I do but some have to be cut back considerably to fit in certain coaches. M made passengers a while back which although not up to the Preiser standard did fit quite well however they have changed their passengers which although they look better now have to have the legs operation.
With certain coaches and lighting units the feet of standing people have to be cut.
As I said I like these newer Swiss coaches they look good but spoiled by the way the interior is fitted and designed. Painting the interior and doing some modifcations can be good fun (on a rainy day) and is worthwhile.

David
Offline WelshMatt  
#68 Posted : 23 May 2008 19:07:27(UTC)
WelshMatt


Joined: 06/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: ,
Regarding painting the interiors, I bought a new Liliput model of the German Chancellor's coach (red/beige as running in the early '70s). Originally this would have cost as much as a Marklin model, and it has a fully painted interior (even down to chequered "tiles" on the floor in the toilets). If Liliput can do this then why can't Marklin match them at the same price? My only complaint with the model is that it seems to be glued together, so getting inside to add lights and passengers will be tricky. Given I picked it up for 50% off RRP I'm willing to put up with that!
Matt from Wales.

When you pay Range Rover prices, don't accept Lada quality
Offline john black  
#69 Posted : 23 May 2008 23:29:54(UTC)
john black

United States   
Joined: 21/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by john black
<br />The only cause we must suspect why M tries to keep its customers in the dark [xx(]
when <u>deleting the country of origin on the loco</u> is they wanna pretend it were still German quality ...

And as long as they try to hide the truth from us they'll only feed suspicion [}:)]
I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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Offline nevw  
#70 Posted : 24 May 2008 01:16:53(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,632
Location: Strathpine QLD
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by RayPayas
<br />Nev,

Could you explain which is the "problem" dimension which prevents you getting a legless passenger in the seat?

I don't understand what stops you just glueing the passenger's bottom onto the seat after cutting the legs back to the edge of the table.

Ray


Ray,
Using the 87 scale passenger you have to amputate the figure above leg level. a bit higher that the waist, and then they are a very tight fit. Look terrible actually as there is not enough height difference between seat and table top.
If I can find a pack of 100 scale or even N scale things may be better.
Will cost a lot to get some mailed from Europe unless they are with another shipment.
I do have some Z scale but I think they will be too small
N
wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now have a new shiny tin Hip that is badly in Need of Repair
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline kbvrod  
#71 Posted : 24 May 2008 04:43:36(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,596
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi all,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:


Ray,
Using the 87 scale passenger you have to amputate the figure above leg level. a bit higher that the waist, and then they are a very tight fit. Look terrible actually as there is not enough height difference between seat and table top.
If I can find a pack of 100 scale or even N scale things may be better.
Will cost a lot to get some mailed from Europe unless they are with another shipment.
I do have some Z scale but I think they will be too small
N

It's gruesome,sawing off legs.Yet you can use those legs under an auto!Cool
One can always get the saw,and prop up a figure,remember:
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Some men are longer than others.
Your mother has been telling stories about me.


Smile

I would still like an answer about,what I asked for in this thread,the re-post and now about zinc-pest and the piracy problem,since we -know- that never happens anywhere.

Dr Dirt[V]
Offline WelshMatt  
#72 Posted : 24 May 2008 10:29:34(UTC)
WelshMatt


Joined: 06/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: ,
I'd have thought piracy (or rather infringement of intellectual property, to whit, pinching designs) would be a non-starter with Marklin. The potential market isn't really big enough to justify setting up a "shadow" factory, as attempting to sell the stuff in the West wouldn't work.

I could accept that a few reject/"seconds" models might find their way onto ebay. I know Mainline (who used to make British OO back in the '70s/80s) did sell their rejects through a factory shop in the UK at a heavily discounted price, but they were all clearly marked as such so people knew what they were getting. I think they put some sort of indelible mark on the underside so they couldn't be passed off as standard models.
Matt from Wales.

When you pay Range Rover prices, don't accept Lada quality
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