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Offline otidblom  
#1 Posted : 19 October 2004 19:44:59(UTC)
otidblom


Joined: 17/08/2004(UTC)
Posts: 21
Location: ,
Hi all!

Could you please show me (step by step) how to mount the delta dekoders 6603/6604 in a 3000, and 2 cm 800 locos?

Thank you!

Offline jorge_vilarrubi  
#2 Posted : 19 October 2004 20:20:11(UTC)
jorge_vilarrubi


Joined: 15/12/2003(UTC)
Posts: 644
Location: Buenos Aires,
Hi Oliver,
1 - remove old switch.
2 - clean the Lok, oil it and install new brushes and pickup shoe.
3 - connect the wires: red to pickup, brown to chassis, gray to front light, yellow to rear light (both to front light if no rear light), black to motor, green and blue to field magnet.
4 - check for good running. if the Lok travels in the wrong direction related to the arrows, switch positions for green and blue.
5 - enjoy your digital Lok.
Regards,
Jorge Vilarrubí
Buenos Aires
ARGENTINA
Offline john black  
#3 Posted : 19 October 2004 22:59:59(UTC)
john black

United States   
Joined: 21/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Hi Jorge Smile

Please allow me a simple question - with identical locos why is top speed on digital engines so much slower than on analog ones ?

Many thanks
John

I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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Offline jorge_vilarrubi  
#4 Posted : 19 October 2004 23:30:53(UTC)
jorge_vilarrubi


Joined: 15/12/2003(UTC)
Posts: 644
Location: Buenos Aires,
Hello John, afaik, motors are driven with only the negative half of the digital signal put by the central system onto the track. This means that you have less voltage than that in analog layouts.
The speed difference is more noticeable when a digital loco is running on an analog layout.
Regards,
Jorge Vilarrubí
Buenos Aires
ARGENTINA
Offline john black  
#5 Posted : 19 October 2004 23:33:24(UTC)
john black

United States   
Joined: 21/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Thank you so much !

Best Regards
John

I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
UserPostedImage
Offline perz  
#6 Posted : 19 October 2004 23:45:38(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,470
Location: Sweden
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:if the Lok travels in the wrong direction related to the arrows, switch positions for green and blue.


Forget about the arrows if you have a Delta station, these are indicators on the 6021 Control Station. However, you may have to swap the blue and green wires if the direction of the light does not match the direction of travel.

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:with identical locos why is top speed on digital engines so much slower than on analog ones ?

You mean top speed in AC mode in both cases? For the Delta decoders and the old unregulated decoders I think the main reason is voltage drop in the decoder electronic. The difference isn't that big with these decoders, but it is definitely recognizable.

When it comes to fully regulated decoders (and some "modern" non-regulated ones), the adjustable maximum speed and acceleration delay is applied. Typically a digital loco is adjusted to some medium speed at the factory. The DC motor also has a lower top speed compared to the AC motor, because the back EMF of the motor does not reduce the field strength of the field magnet, as it does in an AC motor. Top speed is proportional to the inverse of the magnet field. There may also be speed differences depending on the number of turns in the rotor coil. Voltage drop in the decoder electronic is also a factor, just as for the Delta decoders.
Offline perz  
#7 Posted : 19 October 2004 23:52:16(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,470
Location: Sweden
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Hello John, afaik, motors are driven with only the negative half of the digital signal put by the central system onto the track. This means that you have less voltage than that in analog layouts.

No, this is definitely not true. All decoders I have seen (I haven't seen all of course) contain a full wave rectifier, and are thus capable of using both the positive and negative pulses. Since the digital signal is (almost) square wave while AC is sine wave, the effective voltage in digital drive is actually higher than in AC drive. Theoretically 1.41 times higher, but some of it is lost as power drop in the control unit.
Offline jorge_vilarrubi  
#8 Posted : 20 October 2004 02:37:31(UTC)
jorge_vilarrubi


Joined: 15/12/2003(UTC)
Posts: 644
Location: Buenos Aires,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by perz
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Hello John, afaik, motors are driven with only the negative half of the digital signal put by the central system onto the track. This means that you have less voltage than that in analog layouts.

No, this is definitely not true. All decoders I have seen (I haven't seen all of course) contain a full wave rectifier, and are thus capable of using both the positive and negative pulses. Since the digital signal is (almost) square wave while AC is sine wave, the effective voltage in digital drive is actually higher than in AC drive. Theoretically 1.41 times higher, but some of it is lost as power drop in the control unit.

You can follow the circuitry and will see what I've said.
Jorge Vilarrubí
Buenos Aires
ARGENTINA
Offline Lars Westerlind  
#9 Posted : 20 October 2004 07:31:02(UTC)
Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
I fully agree with perz.
The possible power received by the decoder is actually more than that from an analog trafo. I'm sorry Jorge, but you must have made a mistake.

But Johns question. Either the locos aren't identical (different magnets, rotor etc), and the deocer is certainly different. And it's the decoder who decides how much current goes to the rotor, so if the locos were identical, the answer is that the decoder is set to limit the speed to the motor. In my eayes a good thing, as model locos normally go to fast. Smile

Regards,
Lars
Offline perz  
#10 Posted : 20 October 2004 17:51:10(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,470
Location: Sweden
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:I'm sorry Jorge, but you must have made a mistake.

... or been looking at a strange breed of decoder. I have examined a 6603 and seen a schematic for a 60902. I have also seen drawings for some DIY decoders. All of these have full wave rectifiers and feed the motor from the rectified voltage. But there are lots of other brands and breeds of decoders out there that may do it differently...
Offline nico van zon  
#11 Posted : 20 October 2004 19:12:05(UTC)
nico van zon


Joined: 25/07/2004(UTC)
Posts: 202
Location: ,
With electric motors the effective voltage is of minor interest. What counts is the average rectified voltage.
On a digital voltage, because it's a square wave, top value, effective value and average value are the same, say 18V.

The analog nominal voltage in a Märklin railway is 16V, that's the effective value. The average value is lower by the so called shapefactor, which is 1.11 for a sine wave. So the average voltage is about 14.5V

Why motors nevertheless run slower in a digital system is probably because the duty cycle of the decoderoutput is not run up to the full 100%.
Offline john black  
#12 Posted : 20 October 2004 20:49:00(UTC)
john black

United States   
Joined: 21/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by nico van zon
<br />Why motors nevertheless run slower in a digital system is probably because the duty cycle of the decoderoutput is not run up to the full 100%


Sounds logically, too - many thanks, Nico Smile

John

I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
UserPostedImage
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