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Offline acwertheim  
#1 Posted : 22 January 2008 23:33:33(UTC)
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acwertheim

United States   
Joined: 05/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 77
Location: Hermon, Maine
Hi,
Does anybody know if I can use a 4 degree incline with HO?
or do I need a 2 or 3 degree incline.
Thanks,
Abe

acwertheim
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Offline dntower85  
#2 Posted : 22 January 2008 23:41:02(UTC)
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dntower85

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Joined: 08/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,218
Location: Shady Shores, TX - USA
yes and no, with a good heavy loc and a few lite cars you can pull a steeper grade, but pull a a few lit coaches and it might struggle with 4%.
DT
Now powered by ECoS II unit#2, RocRail
era - some time in the future when the space time continuum is disrupted and ICE 3 Trains run on the same rails as the Adler and BR18's.
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Offline Frostie  
#3 Posted : 23 January 2008 00:14:16(UTC)
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Frostie

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Joined: 08/08/2003(UTC)
Posts: 1,614
Location: Birmingham,Alabama
I am using 4% inclines with woodland scenics styrofoam inclines and it works ok.


But most importantly you have to have a smooth even incline. If you have a long locomotive and there are dips in the incline the wheels will just spin.

I am really having some fun on free form inclines without styrofoam to control the rise.
Train Collection Insured by "Croc's" with "Big Boys" as Backup"
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Love those Era 1 Tank Locomotives - the more the merrier.

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Offline drstapes  
#4 Posted : 23 January 2008 00:26:16(UTC)
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drstapes

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/08/2004(UTC)
Posts: 764
Location: Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk
To get the best results for all locos on inclines I recommend a 1mm rise for every standard M track rail.
regards
Regards

Geoff (UK)

marklin HO from the 50's and 60's
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Offline perz  
#5 Posted : 23 January 2008 01:18:11(UTC)
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perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Do you meen 4 % or 4 degrees?
A 4 degree incline corresponds to 7 %, and 7 % is definitely over the recommended, even though many heavy locos will manage it. 4 % is usually not a problem, according to my experience.
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Offline kbvrod  
#6 Posted : 23 January 2008 03:04:57(UTC)
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kbvrod

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Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi all,
5% max!And make it smooth,like your approach to women,....
If it gives you a problem,double-head the train,...heck the real railroads do!

Dr Dirt(graded)
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#7 Posted : 23 January 2008 03:24:37(UTC)
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Bigdaddynz

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Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
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Location: New Zealand
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by drstapes
<br />To get the best results for all locos on inclines I recommend a 1mm rise for every standard M track rail.
regards



That's a bit over the top, don't you mean 10mm per track. If I used 1mm per M track piece, it would take 100 track pieces on my layout for my inclines to reach bridges 100mm in height, then another 100 pieces to get back down to baseboard level. I don't think I've got 200 consecutive track pieces on my layout.

The Marklin catalogues usually give some details on incline measurements for a bridge at 104.5mm, most of the height changes are around 9mm per track piece, with around 3mm per piece at the start and end of the incline.
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Offline TTRExpress  
#8 Posted : 23 January 2008 03:29:37(UTC)
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TTRExpress

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Joined: 06/04/2006(UTC)
Posts: 655
Abe,

We assume you meant a 4% incline rather than a 4 degree one. I would not go beyond a 4%. If you do not feel comfortable making your own incline risers, Woodland Scenics makes a nice set of styrofoam inclines up to 4%. They are relatively inexpensive compared to the rest of the items we buy for our beloved hobby.

Have fun!!

Regards (a Scottish Highlander in Wisconsin)
Regards (a Scot in Wisconsin),

Maurice [ETE, TTRCA, IG-TRIX Express, Maerklin-Insider & TRIX Profi-Club]
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Offline sudibarba  
#9 Posted : 23 January 2008 05:02:13(UTC)
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sudibarba

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Joined: 28/07/2006(UTC)
Posts: 880
Location: Augusta, GA USA
I have to admit I have been to ashamed to ask the question but now will. Does 4 degrees mean like 4 degrees on a 90 degree protractor and does 4 % mean like 4 % of 90 degrees or 3.6 degrees? I thought I was pretty well educated but I guess not. Please define the issue clearly.
Thanks,
Eric
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#10 Posted : 23 January 2008 05:17:59(UTC)
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DaleSchultz

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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
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4 degrees means 4/360th of a circle. (so yes 4° as on a protractor)It is not usual to talk of a rail incline in terms of degrees but rather in % (or per thousand in the prototype)
4% means for every 100m of horizontal travel the height will change by 4m

so a 45° slope, would be 100% - for every foot you move you also change height by one foot.

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
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Offline sudibarba  
#11 Posted : 23 January 2008 06:09:55(UTC)
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sudibarba

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Location: Augusta, GA USA
Thanks as usual.
Interesting, roofing in the USA is on the rise in 12ft. A 4 foot rise in 12 feet is called a 4 pitch roof. Why I brought that I up I don't know.
Eric
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Offline sudibarba  
#12 Posted : 23 January 2008 06:25:22(UTC)
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sudibarba

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Joined: 28/07/2006(UTC)
Posts: 880
Location: Augusta, GA USA
Not meaning to insult the rest of the world on metric, that means a 4% rise would need 8 feet of run to get a 3.84 inch rise. Clearly, it appears to me that many layouts I see must exceed 4%.

OK
8 feet = 2.44 meter
3.84 inch = 9.75 centimeters
(see how global I am)(humor?)

What do you think - or have I messed this up?
Eric
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Offline Purellum  
#13 Posted : 23 January 2008 07:41:38(UTC)
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Purellum

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Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
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Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Acwertheim: Sure you can use a 4 degree incline.

The picture I show below is from a time when trains could climb mountains Cool

Many of my trains can climb up to 8-10%, it does however look a bit strange.

UserPostedImage

Per.
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline al_pignolo  
#14 Posted : 23 January 2008 09:32:07(UTC)
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al_pignolo


Joined: 30/09/2005(UTC)
Posts: 904
Location: bologna, BO
You must also consider if they run straight or you have curves. In my layout I have a long 4.5% sloping, that is straight in the first part, with an R3 curve in the last one. Almost all my locos can run without difficulties on the first (with a reasonably heavy train) but a little more of them begin to skid when reaching the curve, with a passenger train with 5-6 cars.
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Offline hxmiesa  
#15 Posted : 23 January 2008 13:29:01(UTC)
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hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,520
Location: Spain
Yes, the curves stress the locos a lot.
One can use up to 10% with no big problems on straights, but this should be halved on curves.

4% on a STRAIGHT will be no problem with most M. lok, even with longer trains.

Own actual layout; pulling 4m long and HEAVY trains up a 2.8% incline on 4-rounds R5 curve: No problem!
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline acwertheim  
#16 Posted : 23 January 2008 15:22:56(UTC)
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acwertheim

United States   
Joined: 05/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 77
Location: Hermon, Maine
Hi,
Yes I meant 4% and not degrees. Sorry about that.
I was planning to by the foam incliners from Woodland and I was not sure if my train (like the Marklin 3 car ICE set 29785)could make a 4% incline.
Woodland says to make a 4% incline you need about 8 feet of space to get to a 4 inch height. A 2% incline needs 16 feet and I don't have that.
Thanks,
Abe
acwertheim
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Offline nfotis  
#17 Posted : 23 January 2008 18:44:20(UTC)
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nfotis


Joined: 13/12/2006(UTC)
Posts: 125
Location: ,
You can combine an incline with a curve/helix, so the ruling grade will be kept low.
This is the reason for loops like Tehachapi, e.g.

Regards,
Nick the Greek
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Offline drstapes  
#18 Posted : 23 January 2008 21:56:59(UTC)
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drstapes

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/08/2004(UTC)
Posts: 764
Location: Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk
Bigdaddynz,

"That's a bit over the top, don't you mean 10mm per track. If I used 1mm per M track piece, it would take 100 track pieces on my layout for my inclines to reach bridges 100mm in height, then another 100 pieces to get back down to baseboard level. I don't think I've got 200 consecutive track pieces on my layout."

1 stand corrected &lt;g&gt;I did in fact mean 10mm or the thickness of one of the slim M track bridge supports, I have forgotten the part number.
The point I was trying to make is that a too steep an incline leads to hours of frustrating running. Whilst some of the bigger locos will pull 3 or 4 carriages over a steeper incline there are plenty that will stall. I had to rebuild a previous layout when I made a similar mistake. From memory only I think it took 10 M track tracks to get a suitable incline to go over a normal track with no catenary, however I may be a bit pessimistic. Anyhow the point is,the gentler the incline is the better the running.
regards


Regards

Geoff (UK)

marklin HO from the 50's and 60's
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Offline Hemmerich  
#19 Posted : 23 January 2008 22:39:51(UTC)
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Hemmerich


Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by drstapes
<br />Bigdaddynz,

"That's a bit over the top, don't you mean 10mm per track. If I used 1mm per M track piece, it would take 100 track pieces on my layout for my inclines to reach bridges 100mm in height, then another 100 pieces to get back down to baseboard level. I don't think I've got 200 consecutive track pieces on my layout."

1 stand corrected &lt;g&gt;I did in fact mean 10mm or the thickness of one of the slim M track bridge supports, I have forgotten the part number.
The point I was trying to make is that a too steep an incline leads to hours of frustrating running. Whilst some of the bigger locos will pull 3 or 4 carriages over a steeper incline there are plenty that will stall. I had to rebuild a previous layout when I made a similar mistake. From memory only I think it took 10 M track tracks to get a suitable incline to go over a normal track with no catenary, however I may be a bit pessimistic. Anyhow the point is,the gentler the incline is the better the running.
regards

Hi Geoff,

the bridge pieces you're likely talking about are #7066 (green base plate, 3mm), #7065 (brick pylon, 6mm) and #7064 (brick pylon, 30mm).

So, these Märklin pieces are suitable 6 or 12mm steps on a 180mm track lenght (18mm would already be rather "extreme"), but Märklin too just recommend to use only 6mm.

BTW: Today's C-Track bridge pieces still have those specs (3,6,30mm). wink
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Offline drstapes  
#20 Posted : 24 January 2008 03:13:42(UTC)
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drstapes

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/08/2004(UTC)
Posts: 764
Location: Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk
Lutz,
Thanks for the info, I was looking in an old catologue which shows the track schematic for bridge building. This recommends a gradient of 5% with less at the end of the approach ramp. Interestingly it advises 3mm,6mm and 9mm increments.This gives a 10 M track rail approach for track without catenary and 14 if you have to clear catenary
regards

Regards

Geoff (UK)

marklin HO from the 50's and 60's
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#21 Posted : 24 January 2008 03:28:06(UTC)
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Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,665
Location: New Zealand
Point taken Geoff. I'm using 15 1/2 M track pieces for my ramps to clear catenary at 104mm, so that pretty much lines up with what you say. Cheers.
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Offline sudibarba  
#22 Posted : 24 January 2008 03:36:50(UTC)
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sudibarba

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Joined: 28/07/2006(UTC)
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Location: Augusta, GA USA
This has been a usefull topic for me.
Thanks,
Eric
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Offline Tex  
#23 Posted : 24 January 2008 21:54:38(UTC)
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Tex

United States   
Joined: 30/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 276
Location: Houston, Texas
I used 4.25 % grades more or less on my previous layout and had no problem with heavier engines like the metal V200 and Class 41 engine but it greatly limited my train length with older and lighter engines especially around curves. My new layout will use a helix with 5200 M track. Limiting the rise per level to 3.5" ,89mm ,which will produce a grade of about 3.25%. the approach section will be about half that amount. This is as tight as I dare make it with 1/4 inch plywood. Does anyone have this close a spacing ?
Tex
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Offline Tivvy  
#24 Posted : 03 February 2008 08:02:49(UTC)
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Tivvy


Joined: 01/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 414
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Hi,

How long are the trains that you would assume might start causing locos trouble above 4% grades?

I have quite steep grades but at most I will have 5 coach + loco OR 6 car railcars. Is this likely to be problematic? Should I try and re-engineer the grade before I get too far into the construction of the layout?
Ep IV / V Marklin Layout
6 track dead end station, twin track loop, 4 track through station.
Under construction.
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Offline steventrain  
#25 Posted : 03 February 2008 10:05:56(UTC)
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steventrain

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Location: United Kingdom
Welcome to the forum, Tivvy.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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