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Offline xxup  
#1 Posted : 17 August 2016 04:49:20(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
A friend of my has a 10 year old Br 50 from the mega start set that came with the MS1. The Ms 1 died so he acquired a new MS3 with the 60116 (I think) box to connect it to his C-track. The problem is that this loco will not register as mfx with the MS3 - other locos do, but not the Br 50. The Br 50 registers mFx with my eCOs and a CS2 we managed to borrow. So mFx does work on the loco.. Using my track box and my MS1 the loco also registers.

I tried to swap out the black connector box by using the track box that came with the MS1 - no power to the MS3.. When I plug my MS1 into the Black box that comes with the MS3 it powers up, but states "No Master".. Clearly something has changed so that the track box does not work with the MS2..

I remember H0 telling something about FCC dongles that interfere with Mfx registration, but no one explained how to by-pass the box/dongle.. This black box has a FCC statement written on it..

Any suggestions?
Adrian
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Offline clapcott  
#2 Posted : 17 August 2016 06:44:52(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
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Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
Any suggestions?


Assuming the loK didn't sneak into your MS roster while you were not looking and is sitting in the background,
you might try changing the wires (polarity) in case the decode is a bit less tolerant.

Peter
Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 17 August 2016 08:54:39(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
In the CS3 thread I was told that I could not seriously expect the CS3 to be compatible with a booster that was sold 6 years ago.
How can you expect the "MS3" to be compatible with a loco that was sold more than 10 years ago? Flapper


MS1 and MS2 are completely incompatible and each needs its own trackbox. Mixing won't work.


I haven't seen the FCC dongle myself as European starter sets don't have it.
I think in the case of the 60113 it is an external black box that is routed between trackbox and track. It is easy to leave it away.
If the new dark grey trackbox has the FCC filter (that filters mfx signals) built in then there won't be a simple solution to bypass that.

Swapping red and brown shouldn't make a difference for mfx - otherwise mfx wouldn't work for gauge I, IIm, or Trix H0.
It makes a difference for MM, so red should go to B and brown to 0.

That old loco has the first generation of ESU mfx decoders. Maybe later decoders have a stronger mfx feedback.
The trackbox might still work with later mfx decoders (ESU and Märklin). If it does this still won't help your friend.


Can we expect Märklin to test new controllers with locos that are 12 years old?
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Rwill  
#4 Posted : 17 August 2016 10:18:47(UTC)
Rwill

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Thought I had missed something important here.

When did they release the MS3?
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Offline RayF  
#5 Posted : 17 August 2016 10:42:17(UTC)
RayF

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Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Rwill Go to Quoted Post
Thought I had missed something important here.

When did they release the MS3?


It's not really an MS3. The 60657 released this year is just a 60653 MS2 with a black case to match the CS3.

http://www.maerklin.de/e...pdb_pi1%5Bsearchres%5D=1
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Rwill  
#6 Posted : 17 August 2016 10:58:23(UTC)
Rwill

United Kingdom   
Joined: 04/05/2015(UTC)
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Location: England, London
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Rwill Go to Quoted Post
Thought I had missed something important here.

When did they release the MS3?


It's not really an MS3. The 60657 released this year is just a 60653 MS2 with a black case to match the CS3.

http://www.maerklin.de/e...pdb_pi1%5Bsearchres%5D=1


I know - I've got a 60657 - purchased about three months ago. But I dithered for six months prior to that because I thought that with the announcement of the CS3 they might well introduce a MS3 rather than a black plastic case. And furthermore with our super support UK dealer I was scared stiff that Version 2.5 would become version 2.6 and your solution of simply buying another one was the only option.

Offline xxup  
#7 Posted : 17 August 2016 12:34:15(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
...I think in the case of the 60113 it is an external black box that is routed between trackbox and track..


Thank you for your wisdom Tom. Do you know if the 60113 has any FCC built-in?

Also, do you know if the old ESU Marklin decoders can be firmware upgraded with a Lokprogrammer like the newer decoders?

Adrian
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Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 17 August 2016 20:11:31(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
Also, do you know if the old ESU Marklin decoders can be firmware upgraded with a Lokprogrammer like the newer decoders?
With those old decoders you can upgrade the firmware and upload new sound projects, assuming the loco is from the 29820 set or other sets of that time.
Later on Märklin used locked ESU mfx decoders before they started using locked home-brew decoders.

I don't think that a firmware update will help with the issue discussed in this thread, but most likely it will be possible.
You may have to use the 2.7.9 ESU software.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline clapcott  
#9 Posted : 17 August 2016 22:24:39(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
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Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
Any suggestions?


1)
Update the firmware of the decoder.

2)
On your MS1 environment, ensure the locomotive has all its functions off and is definitely at speed zero. Then retry on the MS2

3) Purely as a diagnostic indicator... (inconclusive of itself)
On your MS1 environment, ensure the locomotive has all its functions off EXCEPT THE LIGHT and is definitely at speed zero.

Then retry on the MS2 BUT WATCH THE LOCO AS YOU TURN POWER ON TO THE TRACK.

If the lights come on for a brief moment and then go off, this is an indication that the decoder has at least detected a different controller.
If the lights come on (remembering its last state) but do not turn off (detection of a different controller) then it may be either the decoder or controller not dancing the registration tango correctly .Given you mention a 60657 , which should be @ V2.5 , then it is more likely to be the decoder (firmware).
Peter
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Offline xxup  
#10 Posted : 18 August 2016 01:26:09(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
The other thing I forgot to mention is that the other loco in the mega set registers mFx with the MS2/3 perfectly.. Its a diesel loco of some sort..
Adrian
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Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 18 August 2016 08:10:30(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
The other thing I forgot to mention is that the other loco in the mega set registers mFx with the MS2/3 perfectly.
Both locos should have identical decoders (hardware and firmware).

Maybe with that loco and that MS2/trackbox we have have extreme tolerances coming together - maybe a loco with a slightly softer mfx feedback and an MS2 trackbox that is slightly insensitive.

A loco card could help if you find another trackbox or a CS2 where the loco registers successfully.

You can try the decoder from the BR 50 in the frame of the BR V 160 to rule out differences inside the loco. There could be a different choke in the steamer than in the diesel or such.
Don't try the decoder in newer locos unless you are sure speaker impedance and AUX3/4 are compatible.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline xxup  
#12 Posted : 23 August 2016 02:36:43(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
Just a quick update on progress..

He forgot to bring over the diesel so, I did not get a chance to compare firmware etc.

You can't use Lokprogrammer v2.7.9 to upgrade decoder firmware - there is no option.

So I used Lokprogrammer v4.4.20 to change the decoder firmware from:
0.0.6284 (22/12/2004)

to:

0.0.6354 (19/8/2010)

Both versions of the software reported it as a ESU Loksound v3.0 M4 8 bit..

Back onto the track with the MS2/3 and it still would not find the loco as mFx.. Cursing

Looks like we are stuck with the FCC problem.. At this stage I am not even certain that changing the decoder to a new one would work for this loco..
Adrian
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#13 Posted : 23 August 2016 03:47:24(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Rwill Go to Quoted Post
Thought I had missed something important here.

When did they release the MS3?


It's an Aussie thing, they think they're ahead of everyone else.........Flapper

In reality..........it's all in their minds you know......Flapper......(to borrow an expression from the Goon Show)
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Offline biedmatt  
#14 Posted : 23 August 2016 04:05:38(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Curious, can the loko be run in MM or does it prioritize to MFX and prevent MM as an option? If it won't run on MM due to MFX priority, can you turn off MFX in this decoder?
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#15 Posted : 23 August 2016 04:45:04(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
2) On your MS1 environment.....

3) On your MS1 environment........


Not sure if xxup can do this as the MS1 is kaput!
Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 23 August 2016 08:33:29(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
If it won't run on MM due to MFX priority, can you turn off MFX in this decoder?
When the decoder was made they thought that mfx was the bestest protocol in the world and they couldn't think of any reason to disable it.

So MM is only an option if mfx is disabled in the controller.


Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
At this stage I am not even certain that changing the decoder to a new one would work for this loco.
It should work.
A modern sound decoder will need a new speaker. Nothing will get damaged, but the volume will be very low with the old speaker.
Worth a try. Can also be a decoder without sound.
I'm not sure, but AUX3/4 should not be an issue with that loco.

Since the old decoder is not locked, it may get some money on fleaBay.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline xxup  
#17 Posted : 23 August 2016 08:45:48(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
So to recap.

mFx registration works for the BR50 when using an Ecos, CS2, MS1, but not the MS2/3 with the grey or black track box. The diesel that came in the same set works perfectly.

The decoder has been reset using the eCOS and CS2 and the lokprogrammer. The decoder has been upgraded to the latest available firmware.

The MS2/3 DOES recognise the loco as MM with address 50, but does not automatically assign the functions to the MS2/3. So the owner has to manually add them to the MS2/3 every time the loco is lost from the unit's database. This is why he is keen on mFx.

For some reason, he is not keen to replace the decoder - I guess because, like me, he can't understand why two locos from the same set behave so differently.

The local dealer is exploring the option of creating a loco card for the BR50 that works with the MS2/3.

For the East Islanders: The reason that we have the MS3 is that it is probably illegal in Australia to call something a black MS2 - deemed to be a racist statement. Wink
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#18 Posted : 23 August 2016 23:43:35(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
The reason that we have the MS3 is that it is probably illegal in Australia to call something a black MS2 - deemed to be a racist statement. Wink


We are talking about Märklin model railways here........no need to try and second guess yourself to remain PC.
Offline xxup  
#19 Posted : 24 August 2016 00:16:44(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
True, but the PC police (they are everywhere) don't know what a MS2 is and always assume the worst.. Scared
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Offline RayF  
#20 Posted : 24 August 2016 11:00:16(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
This seems to be quite a special case as far as MFX problems go. If the loco is recognised by one controller and not another then there is something marginal going on here, especially as the other loco from the set behaves correctly . I suspect something like a capacitor beginning to degrade on the loco decoder, distorting the digital waveforms.

I would definitely replace that decoder for peace of mind!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline dominator  
#21 Posted : 25 August 2016 11:23:00(UTC)
dominator

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Location: Kerikeri
Isn't Black better then green/yellow at the moment Adrian?
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
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Offline Angus  
#22 Posted : 25 August 2016 12:10:06(UTC)
Angus

South Africa   
Joined: 27/01/2012(UTC)
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Location: Johannesburg
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
Isn't Black better then green/yellow at the moment Adrian?


A bit off topic but OOOOO some fighting talk there... OhMyGod

And in other news, even blue is better than green/yellow at the moment RollEyes
Offline xxup  
#23 Posted : 25 August 2016 12:49:56(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
Isn't Black better then green/yellow at the moment Adrian?


The boys certainly coped a walloping last weekend.. LOL I guess that All Black captain plays better without his hearing aid... Laugh
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Offline xxup  
#24 Posted : 31 August 2016 06:04:54(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
Close out on the Br 50.

In the end, we found another mate with a CS2. Let the Br 50 register on that device and saved it to a loco card. Then we loaded the loco card into the MS2/3 and hey presto a Br50 with working functions..

Problem solved!
Adrian
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Offline TEEWolf  
#25 Posted : 05 September 2016 17:50:44(UTC)
TEEWolf


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Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
Close out on the Br 50.

In the end, we found another mate with a CS2. Let the Br 50 register on that device and saved it to a loco card. Then we loaded the loco card into the MS2/3 and hey presto a Br50 with working functions..

Problem solved!



Hi Adrian,

good, the problem is solved and be happyLove - for this time.

But for me, the story is a very valuable information from you. This is a piece of a puzzle in the game "Märklin's engineers knows their techniques, but Märklin's marketing keeps them secret and the customers stupid"Cursing (or is uninformed more polite in English?Confused ).

Your observations cherish my suspicions. I guess it is a mixture of dirty tracks, power problems, cabling and electricity feed-in, which influences the bidirectional digital signals flushing over the tracks. But probably also the software programs seems to me having a significant influence.

Perhaps we can write here more about our observations and experiences. So we achieve more puzzle pieces, which will finally lead us to a conclusion and a proofed explanation, why some locos behave like “DDs” (= dumb donkeys).Laugh

Regards

Wolfgang
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