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Offline river6109  
#1 Posted : 14 August 2016 04:35:42(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I wonder whether or not ESU is losing the wholesale market, Roco and Brawa used to have ESU decoders and I hear now Brawa is using Zimo decoders, whereas Roco has made the change a few years back.

it has been established Zimo decoders are the top of the range decoders but I've stayed away from them because of the complicated programming, just a personal issue. (CV's programming is not my thing), someone tried to explain it to me but unfortunately my brain didn't want to go along with it.

since than Märklin has updated their sound decoders to a professional standard, Zimo sound decoders seem to be good and in most cases they are not generic sounds.

I've noticed it has taken ESU seven years to update their Aux functions from 4 to 6 which has been recently introduced in May 2016, whereas Zimo had a decoder without a adapterplate with 6 Aux functions.

it may be it is a price issue and maybe other digital compatible issues.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline franciscohg  
#2 Posted : 14 August 2016 05:24:47(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,265
Location: Patagonia
Hi, got some 2016 Brawa new items, so far all with ESU decoders....
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline river6109  
#3 Posted : 14 August 2016 05:44:07(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
Hi, got some 2016 Brawa new items, so far all with ESU decoders....


unless who ever bought a Brawa loco exchanged it for a Zimo decoder ????

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline river6109  
#4 Posted : 14 August 2016 05:47:07(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
marklinfan wrote: Hi John, I'm not sure for how long, but the Brawa loco I had, definitely had a Zimodecoder complete with a card to load it onto your MS2?

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 14 August 2016 08:25:57(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Roco and Brawa used to have ESU decoders and I hear now Brawa is using Zimo decoders, whereas Roco has made the change a few years back.
Is Roco completely away from ESU or are they still using a mix of UB, Zimo, and ESU? I don't know.
It seems Brawa are still equipping some models with ESU decoders.

Piko are now using ESU sound decoders and sell ESU digital controllers.
So ESU lost some big customers, but found at least one new customer.


Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
since than Märklin has updated their sound decoders to a professional standard
They updated their sound decoders to a new hardware platform. The hardware may be more powerful, but I don't see big improvements yet.
AFAIK they still buy the decoders with DCC and SX from D&H.


Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
I've noticed it has taken ESU seven years to update their Aux functions from 4 to 6 which has been recently introduced in May 2016, whereas Zimo had a decoder without a adapterplate with 6 Aux functions.
The original specification for 21MTC only had six function outputs and was later changed to have eight function outputs.

Yes, it took ESU some time to bring 21MTC sound decoders with eight outputs. From the manuals I assume the soundless decoders still only have six outputs. The adaptor board was changed some time later.

The specification for PluX22 had nine function outputs right from the start - and I think ESU decoders had those nine functions at an early stage.


21MTC had a bad start, reserving six pins for the motor (to allow support for C Sine motors) and with NMRA specifying AUX3/4 (no AUX5/6) to be amplified and NEM specifying AUX3/4/5/6 to be logic-level.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Goofy  
#6 Posted : 14 August 2016 10:25:19(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Brawas new 2016 are equipped now with D&H decoder.
About the ESU...they have some trouble with theirs digital locomotives.
V 60 did stop.
E 94 with two motors are very late.
Br 94 do have some defaults and needs to change details and are also late.

An rumor says ESU sound decoder shall upgrade.
Not sure why somebody says so,but i suspect it´s about US diesel sounds they mean it?
My ESU V 200 do have default at the master volume,so i returned locomotive back to fix the trouble.
There is warranty!
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline kiwiAlan  
#7 Posted : 14 August 2016 14:11:16(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post

An rumor says ESU sound decoder shall upgrade.
Not sure why somebody says so,but i suspect it´s about US diesel sounds they mean it?


I think you are talking about the feature that ESU calls 'Full Throttle'. This has been available for about three months now (I posted some links a while back to Youtube videos on the ESU channel at the time it was released). The number of sound files using this feature is growing every month.

It is true that (at this stage anyway) it is aimed at the US market, and is only available as a feature on diesel projects, because it is related to the way that US prototypes operate their locos. There are plans by ESU to also use the feature on steam loco projects, but when that will be available I don't know.

Personally I will be surprised if Zimo are pushing ESU off the top spot. Companies like Brawa may be multiple sourcing decoders to get price points that suit the individual locos they are producing, or features they desire to have on individual locos.

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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#8 Posted : 15 August 2016 08:49:32(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
I wonder whether or not ESU is losing the wholesale market, Roco and Brawa used to have ESU decoders and I hear now Brawa is using Zimo decoders, ...


Hello John,
Brawa is using Doehler&Haass Decoders! http://doehler-haass.de/cms/

Brawa sells them also under there own brand:

https://www.brawa.de/pro...eugsounddecoder-sd22a-4/

https://www.brawa.de/pro...behoer-fuer-lokomotiven/

All these decoders are original Doehler&Haass products:

Fahrzeugsounddecoder SD18A
Fahrzeugsounddecoder SD21A
Fahrzeugsounddecoder SD22A-4
Fahrzeugdecoder DH10C-1
Fahrzeugdecoder DH10C-3
Fahrzeugdecoder DH16A-2
Fahrzeugdecoder DH18A
Fahrzeugdecoder DH21A-4
Fahrzeugdecoder DH22A-4
Programmer

Regards,
Moritz
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Offline mmervine  
#9 Posted : 15 August 2016 14:22:31(UTC)
mmervine

United States   
Joined: 30/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,883
Location: Keene, NH
Here in the US, they have gained some share. They are now supplying sound decoders to Atlas, Bowser, Fox Valley, & Intermountain.
Märklin C-track, Marklin Digital & ECoS, multi-era French & Swiss
http://www.ete-ene.org/m...mervines-layout-gallery/
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Offline mike c  
#10 Posted : 16 August 2016 05:55:38(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Roco switched it's OEM supplier to Zimo. LSM is using ESU OEM at present, as are ACME. I believe Hornby is also using ESU OEM, as is Liliput.
I don't have any Brawa, so I cannot comment on that brand.
The sound is impressive on the Zimo equipped Roco SBB Loks that I have, especially the ICN and the Re 4/4IIs and ES64 Taurus.
The ESU equipped LSM TEE Gottardo is nice too.

Regards

Mike C
Offline GLI  
#11 Posted : 16 August 2016 08:46:02(UTC)
GLI


Joined: 28/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 82
Location: Lithgow NSW Australia
The sound is impressive on the Zimo equipped Roco SBB Loks that I have, especially the ICN and the Re 4/4IIs and ES64 Taurus.
The ESU equipped LSM TEE Gottardo is nice too.

Regards

Mike C


HI Mike

A little off topic, but I only wish I could report the same.

I purchased 2 Roco DB 50 class locos Cat. Nos 72171 and 72173 earlier this year. I knew that Roco were using Zimo decoders and decided to purchase both locos with sound, as I don't have many sound equipped locos and Zimo appeared to have a good reputation. Unfortunately, that was a BIG mistake.

At slow speed, the sound is fine, but when speed is increased to a normal operating speed, the sound degenerates into drumming sound that has little resemblance to a steam locomotive. Both locos are the same. Then there is the problem of synchronizing the steam chuffs to the rotation of the wheels. For a start, I don't know which Zimo decoder is fitted to the locos, and even if I did, there is the problem of programming them mentioned by John earlier. If you have a Zimo controller, this would not be a problem, and I believe an Ecos could also handle programming, but it is still quite a complex task. Unfortunately, my Ecos is currently u/s with a defective screen, so I am stuck for the time being.

On the other hand, I have a Fleischmann model of a DB S3/6 with factory fitted sound that I acquired at a very good price from a fellow member of the local model train club. It is fitted with a LokSound v3.5 decoder, and the sound is excellent, the best I have heard yet in an HO steam locomotive.

As a reault of this experience, I have decided to only purchase non sound equiped locos unless they are fitted with ESU LokSound decoders.
Offline Rinus  
#12 Posted : 16 August 2016 13:39:08(UTC)
Rinus


Joined: 20/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Wageningen, The Netherlands
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post


Piko are now using ESU sound decoders and sell ESU digital controllers.
So ESU lost some big customers, but found at least one new customer.



Piko is using Uhlenbrock decoders. At least in their expert line br103, br150, br143 and V200. There is also an Uhlenbrock in my clasic line br104.

Prefer ESU though. I have been a bit unfortunate with my last purchases of Brawa and Piko which both had decoder issues, so I'm a bit biased.

Rinus
Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 16 August 2016 23:26:43(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Rinus Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Piko are now using ESU sound decoders and sell ESU digital controllers.
Piko is using Uhlenbrock decoders.
Many Piko locos with factory-installed sound and many Piko sound decoders are ESU.
The silent decoders are Uhlenbrock and the add-on sound modules are Uhlenbrock.
But Piko locos that register automatically on the CS using M4/mfx definitely have ESU decoders.
http://www.piko-shop.de/...d=281&vw_name=detail
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline nmbssncb  
#14 Posted : 30 August 2016 18:40:06(UTC)
nmbssncb


Joined: 07/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 27
Location: ,
My latest purchase, Piko 96546 (NMBS - SNCB E-loc series 120) came with an ESU Loksound and outstanding sound and driving charatheristics programming.

Willy
Offline Hackcell  
#15 Posted : 31 August 2016 05:09:52(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
I've just got rid of 2 märklin OEM decoders to install loksound decoders.
The fact that M OEM decoders are blocked to the point where I can't find the protocol pisses me off.
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#16 Posted : 31 August 2016 08:40:14(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
I've just got rid of 2 märklin OEM decoders to install loksound decoders.
The fact that M OEM decoders are blocked to the point where I can't find the protocol pisses me off.

Many new mfx+ decoder work with DCC protocol, too. You can switch off other protocols with CV50=0.
Offline Hackcell  
#17 Posted : 31 August 2016 17:42:53(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
I've just got rid of 2 märklin OEM decoders to install loksound decoders.
The fact that M OEM decoders are blocked to the point where I can't find the protocol pisses me off.

Many new mfx+ decoder work with DCC protocol, too. You can switch off other protocols with CV50=0.



OEM or aftermarket M/S/L/D3 decoders? I'd love to be able to deactivate mfx on OEM decoders.
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#18 Posted : 01 September 2016 08:01:40(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
OEM or aftermarket M/S/L/D3 decoders? I'd love to be able to deactivate mfx on OEM decoders.

OEM decoders, most of the new mfx+ locos with mSD/3 based OEM decoder support DCC.

Older mSD based OEM decoders will not support DCC.


List of DCC capable Märklin locos:

  • BR 95 (39095)
  • BR 144 (37443)
  • Goliath (49954)


(only those, which are confirmed to support DCC)
Offline biedmatt  
#19 Posted : 01 September 2016 12:31:12(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
OEM or aftermarket M/S/L/D3 decoders? I'd love to be able to deactivate mfx on OEM decoders.

OEM decoders, most of the new mfx+ locos with mSD/3 based OEM decoder support DCC.

Older mSD based OEM decoders will not support DCC.


List of DCC capable Märklin locos:

  • BR 95 (39095)
  • BR 144 (37443)
  • Goliath (49954)


(only those, which are confirmed to support DCC)


Danilo wants to know if he can turn off MFX in those decoders supplied with Marklin lokos which support DCC. The answer is no. A second part of his question, the decoders M sells to upgrade old lokos, can you turn off MFX in those or are they too stuck with MFX constantly active? This I cannot answer since I do not buy M's replacement decoders. Until recently you could only program them with your controller. Now they offer a "LokProgrammer", but to use it you must remove the decoder from the loko. Very inconvienent.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#20 Posted : 01 September 2016 22:44:17(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Danilo wants to know if he can turn off MFX in those decoders supplied with Marklin lokos which support DCC. The answer is no.

Sorry, but the answer is YES! mfx+ decoders which support DCC do support CV50=0. When You program this decoder with DCC, You can set CV50=0 and then, DCC is the only active protocol!

Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post

A second part of his question, the decoders M sells to upgrade old lokos, can you turn off MFX in those or are they too stuck with MFX constantly active?


The repalcement decoders mLD, mSD, mLD/3 and mSD/3 support DCC and there You can permanently switch off mfx protocol in the same way:

Turn off all protocols on Your digital control (like MS2).
Configure the loco as DCC loco.
Set CV50=0

Now, this decoder will only listen to DCC protocol. mfx is permanently switched off!

You can switch on all protocols on Your digital control (like MS2, CS2), the decoder will only listen on DCC!

What do You mean with "Very inconvenient!"?

Reagards,
Moritz
Offline biedmatt  
#21 Posted : 01 September 2016 22:54:25(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
I followed the instructions that explain how to disable MFX in the OEM decoders and found it still wanted to talk on MFX.

Very inconvienent: With the 3rd gen M decoders, once you get the decoder configured as you want, if you want to archive the program: you must disassemble the Loko, remove the decoder, place the decoder in the Marklin USB adapter and upload to your computer. With LokProgrammer you just connect a section of track to the LokProgrammer, place the loko on that section of track and upload. No need to remove the decoder.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#22 Posted : 01 September 2016 23:07:02(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

Germany   
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 682
You can disable mfx only,when You are in DCC mode. It isn't possible to disable mfx while You are in mfx mode.

You don't need to disassemble the decoder! When You have a CS2 or CS3 you can do all on the programming track.

It is a different way of philosophy: with a CS2 you can do everything, update the sound project, the firmware, ...You don't need a separate programmer.

With Esu ECoS you can't update the sound project or firmware, You need the locprogrammer for this.

Both philosophies have advantages and disadvantages. You believe in Esu, so for You the Märklin philosophy is the bad one. I understand both, it is silly to say, this one is the good one, that one is the bad one!
Offline dominator  
#23 Posted : 02 September 2016 12:39:18(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
GLI mentioned [ At slow speed, the sound is fine, but when speed is increased to a normal operating speed, the sound degenerates into drumming sound that has little resemblance to a steam locomotive. Both locos are the same. Then there is the problem of synchronizing the steam chuffs to the rotation of the wheels. ]

I HAVNT SEEN ONE LOCO ON THIS SITE SO FAR THAT HAS SYNCHRONIZED SOUNDS TO THE WHEEL ROTATION. [ BUGGER CAPS LOCS AGAIN]

DERECK
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline H0  
#24 Posted : 02 September 2016 12:54:17(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
I HAVNT SEEN ONE LOCO ON THIS SITE SO FAR THAT HAS SYNCHRONIZED SOUNDS TO THE WHEEL ROTATION.
Märklin made a few such locos - in H0 gauge BR 45 and BR 10.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline river6109  
#25 Posted : 02 September 2016 16:32:48(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
members I think we are getting a bit away from the original topic ? I think it has been covered.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Hackcell  
#26 Posted : 02 September 2016 21:15:56(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
GLI mentioned [ At slow speed, the sound is fine, but when speed is increased to a normal operating speed, the sound degenerates into drumming sound that has little resemblance to a steam locomotive. Both locos are the same. Then there is the problem of synchronizing the steam chuffs to the rotation of the wheels. ]

I HAVNT SEEN ONE LOCO ON THIS SITE SO FAR THAT HAS SYNCHRONIZED SOUNDS TO THE WHEEL ROTATION. [ BUGGER CAPS LOCS AGAIN]

DERECK


MTH synchs sounds, wheel rotation and smoke. ESU is on its way to achieve this, too.
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
Offline Webmaster  
#27 Posted : 02 September 2016 21:35:31(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
With ESU LokSound, you have always been able to sync the sound with a magnet on a wheel & a reed element as sync input to the decoder as far as I remember...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline Goofy  
#28 Posted : 16 September 2016 18:12:56(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
I did visit ESU homepage,by check status of ESU locomotives delivery.
Steam locomotive BR 94 delivery Q1-2/2017!! Scared
I suppose they have some problem with this model?
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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