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Offline applor  
#1 Posted : 20 July 2016 06:57:49(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Hey all,

I've been determining how many S88 detectors and solenoid switching decoders (K83) I need and what brands I want to go with.

I have found it curious that there is such a big price difference in kit prices for the S88 detection options but no real difference for switching.

For example with S88 detectors:

TAMS S-88-3 ~23 euro as a kit (and its N standard)
Viessmann 5217 ~60 euro
Marklin 60883 ~75 euro

As you can see, huge savings to be had for the TAMS kit if you can be bothered.

On the other hand, lets take a look at solenoid switching decoders (K83 or equivalent)

TAMS WD-34 ~23 euro as a kit
Viessmann 5211 (MM) ~28 euro
Viessmann 5212 (DCC) ~43 euro
Lenz LS150 (6 outputs) ~43 euro
Marklin 60831 ~43 euro

As you can see here, you pay only a tiny bit more to have a pre-built Viessmann 5211 or a Lenz LS150 (controls 6 turnouts rather than the standard 4).
You pay a fair bit more for the Viessmann 5212 for DCC support though (which seems ridiculous)

I don't know if anyone can answer why but it seems that for S88 detection then the TAMS kit is the best choice, while for controlling turnouts/signals then either the Viessmann 5211 or Lenz LS150 are great choices.
I do know there are a number of other manufacturers but I don't believe they bring any real difference in data to this observation.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline river6109  
#2 Posted : 20 July 2016 07:11:44(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,635
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Eric, one of our members has produced an S88 with all its parts and instructions for a fraction of the money., he also got his own website, own computer program, operational arrival and departure sign. just can't think of his name, I think his first name was: got it: Dale Schultz

John

Edited by user 20 July 2016 17:45:26(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline peterna  
#3 Posted : 20 July 2016 07:41:56(UTC)
peterna

Australia   
Joined: 21/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 16
Location: Sydney
I now use LDT components and have found them to be cheap and reliable.

You can purchase them as kits, Finished module without case or complete with case.

They are prompt to deal with.

Example prices are S88 as finished unit 36.50 Euro
Decoder as finished unit 29.50 Euro

These include German VAT which they remove
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by peterna
Offline xxup  
#4 Posted : 20 July 2016 07:49:53(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
I highly recommend LDT.. If you are seriously considering computer control then get the HSI-88 as well.. This connects your s-88s directly to the computer driving the layout and can scan them far quicker than the eCOS or CS2.. It also keeps you immune from the s88 "bugs" that surface on both controllers from time to time..
Adrian
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Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 20 July 2016 07:58:03(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

For turnouts you can get Viessmann 52111 for €19 incl. VAT. Cheaper than Tams and already assembled.
Or Viessmann 52121 for €29 with DCC. So DCC still more expensive.

Tams WD-34 has DCC - kit for €23, assembled for €33 if you don't want to DIY.


For CS2, you only need one 60883. For more inputs, add 60881 (€55) or 60882 (€70).
Viessmann 5233 can also be used.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline applor  
#6 Posted : 21 July 2016 01:25:02(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Thanks for the responses guys and sharing other manufacturers.

There is also the RMD S88 decoder which comes already with the diode trick. That really got me interested but its not N standard so... ugh.

In any case I have already ordered the TAMS-3 for S88 detection, still yet to decide on solenoid decoder.

With all the various comparable options I am considered using 2 brands, one for points and one for signals to allow for easy identification in the case of fault finding.

I'll have to take another look at Dales layout too.

Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
I highly recommend LDT.. If you are seriously considering computer control then get the HSI-88 as well


The HSI does sound pretty good but its also 120 euro that could go towards a CS2/3 which I need regardless
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline clapcott  
#7 Posted : 21 July 2016 03:41:20(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
The Adler and the Crocodile are both locomotives ....... however they also have a few differences.

Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
....
For example with S88 detectors:

TAMS S-88-3 ~23 euro as a kit (and its N standard)
Viessmann 5217 ~60 euro
Marklin 60883 ~75 euro


If items are to be be compared ONLY on their price, may I suggest only grouping those with the same feature set.

e.g.
- 5V v 12V
- Current detection v ground (switch) detection v IR .....
- single v matrix capability of port
- controller connectivity (System Bus v 6 pin flat cable v Loconet v .....)
- power required
- expandability (number of busses/ports)
- ROI per port.
- poll v interupt
- interoperability - e.g. true state on startup
- plug v screw terminals
- size
- configuration of terminals
- power boundary/isolation considerations
- smart configuration - i.e. device initiates commands itself (e.g. sensor port X going active = signal Y to red)
- standalone capability
- ports with fixed/configurable addresses
- ports configurable with delays for indicating active/inactive
- ease if setup (screws provided, cost of wiring)
....


FWIW Uhlenbrock 63330 can be sourced for 40€ but you may need a loconet controller of some sort
Peter
Offline Drongo  
#8 Posted : 21 July 2016 14:00:12(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,221
Location: Sydney, NSW
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
I highly recommend LDT.. If you are seriously considering computer control then get the HSI-88 as well.. This connects your s-88s directly to the computer driving the layout and can scan them far quicker than the eCOS or CS2.. It also keeps you immune from the s88 "bugs" that surface on both controllers from time to time..


Hi Adrian,

I've been having some problems with my s88 communications, and I noticed you mentioned the HSI-88 unit, which I have interpreted as being a device which speeds up the communications of the s88 to the PC. Firstly, is this correct?

If so, here's my problem. I'm using TrainController and I have setup the program for trains to stop at certain locations. Most of the time they do this, but occasionally, they over run the stop mark. I'm using occupancy sensors in each block and I feel that when the train overruns, it's because the s88 sensor hasn't sent the information fast enough to the program for the train to slow down. Therefore, if I use an HSI-88, it might resolve my problem.

What do you think?

Regards
Greg
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Offline Minok  
#9 Posted : 21 July 2016 22:08:47(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
I highly recommend LDT.. If you are seriously considering computer control then get the HSI-88 as well.. This connects your s-88s directly to the computer driving the layout and can scan them far quicker than the eCOS or CS2.. It also keeps you immune from the s88 "bugs" that surface on both controllers from time to time..


Hi Adrian,

I've been having some problems with my s88 communications, and I noticed you mentioned the HSI-88 unit, which I have interpreted as being a device which speeds up the communications of the s88 to the PC. Firstly, is this correct?


I'm not Adrian so I'll defer to what he has to say, but here's my take (given I don't actually own the device and am relying on what I can read about it).
The way the Märklin S88 and others work is they plug into the Central Station, and then the Central Station into your PC with its automation and control software (Train Controller).
With the HSI-88, you can directly connect to the PC and control software, without the Central Station getting in the way.

The way I understand it is the S88 device reads the status of all of its inputs and then hands them off. If that read data payload has to go through the Central Station first, the Central Station can know about the status (useful if the CS is doing things based on occupancy, lets say) BUT it also means it takes one additional hand-off form the Central Station to the PC to get the data to your controlling software. So it does take longer to get the S88 sensor data to Train Controller. Additionally, if the Central Station has some sort of issue or mucks with the S88 data payload, what gets sent to the software may never get sent or might get mangled. So from a reliability standpoint for PC control, the direct to the PC approach is lower risk; and the various bits about the sensing status get to the PC software (eg Train Controller) faster.

I don't have any idea how long it takes, of additional time, for the S88 data to pass through the Central Station to know if it is that an occasional delay in the CS handing the data on is long enough for the train to then travel additional distance and thus stop later than it should.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
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My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline xxup  
#10 Posted : 21 July 2016 23:26:51(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
Thomas has it mostly correct.

When I had an Intellibox (pre 2007) I started to experience problems when 7 or 8 trains were running. The upshot, after many hours of diagnosis was that some of the s88s were not seen as triggered by the intellibox.. Part of the problem was that this was a small layout with short distances between the s88 segments = high frequency of s88 traffic to the Intellibox.. At the time, I tried all the suggested settings with only a slight improvement..

Then I bought the HSI-88.. The effect was immediate (actually it took ages to work out how to correctly configure this into WinDigiPet) and there were no more problems..

Aside from taking the processor load away from the controller (Intellibox at the time) the HSI-8 breaks up your long string of S88 modules (serial interface) into three parallel strings of s88s (see this for serial vs parallel http://www.bb-elec.com/Images/Whitepapers/comfig12.aspx ). This means that the computer is effectively able to poll three signals at once - add this to a fast PC (intel i5+) and your s88 problems are gone..

The other benefit is that you are immune to the s88 bugs that seem to come and ago with each new software upgrade on both the eCOS and the CS2. I don't know why this is happening, but I would not be surprised if the CPU in both the eCOS and CS2 is getting so busy doing the pretty things that it is starting to have trouble leaving enough processor cycles to poll each of the s88s - it could be why Marklin brought out the L88..

The HSI-88 is 9 years old. It is the original serial version now running through a serial to USB interface.. I assume that LDT have improved on the design over the years..

My view is that the s88 technology is past its use by date and needs to be replaced with a more efficient solution. Of course, the cost of migrating to a new solution will probably be a nighmare!
Adrian
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Offline applor  
#11 Posted : 22 July 2016 00:36:46(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
OK Adrian I think you've sold me on the LDT HSI. LDT website says Rocrail is not supported but Rocrail website says it has been tested.

The only question though, is with the new CS3 and its improved hardware perhaps it has sufficient processing power to eliminate those delays with the S88 bus?
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline xxup  
#12 Posted : 22 July 2016 00:55:35(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
..is with the new CS3 and its improved hardware perhaps it has sufficient processing power to eliminate those delays with the S88 bus?


A reasonable assumption, but the other question is: what additional functionality is incorporated into the CS3 that might consume that additional processing power? Unfortunately, we won't know the answer until the CS3 is more widely available..

My understanding of Rcorail support for HSI-88 is that the serial version is fully supported in all client/server versions, but the HSI-88 USB is only supported in the Windows version.. See http://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php?id=hsi88:hsi88usb-en

Perhaps someone from the Rocrail group can provide more information here??

Adrian
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Offline Ross  
#13 Posted : 22 July 2016 02:54:14(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 868
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hi All,

Some more food for thought.

I have used the µCon-s88-Master with standard s88 modules as well as the DR4088GND and DR4088CSand modules from digikeijs see article below.

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~...w/rms/pdf/s88_master.pdf

The Diode Trick is also very useful see below

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~.../pdf/the_diode_trick.pdf

I have converted all my standard s88 modules to the s88-n standard a must to help reject electrical interference.

In my opinion the Marklin L88 is limited because one channel is for the old s88 with all its limitations and the system isn't standalone as the s88-master and the LDT HSI-88.

Ross
Offline applor  
#14 Posted : 22 July 2016 06:11:02(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Yes one of my criteria was S88-N standard. I plan to do the diode upgrade to my Tams-S88-3.
I will then connect them direct to the LDT HSI using the RJ45 (N standard) adaptor.

The limitation with the old style bus connector is simply the amount of interference over longer distance.
Having the first cable to the L-88 from CS2 as the old cable is not that big of deal, since all the other S88's would then use the cat5 RJ45 shielded cables.
There is definitely a benefit to using a standalone S88 controller though.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by applor
Offline Minok  
#15 Posted : 23 July 2016 00:14:37(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post

My view is that the s88 technology is past its use by date and needs to be replaced with a more efficient solution. Of course, the cost of migrating to a new solution will probably be a nighmare!


It would be interesting to see what one can come up with.
Ideally, the S88 detection sections (assuming for the moment that that way of detecting doesn't change) would still close a circuit and then the box that wiring plugs into generates an interrupt signal, which then gets a message sent back to the controller/computer about what just opened/closed.

That way the only data needing to be handles is which sections became occupied or open, without having to poll and shift-register the entire set of S88 sections.

Of course the ideal would be for trains to report back their position over the electrical network somehow.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline xxup  
#16 Posted : 23 July 2016 02:46:15(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
That's true, but I am more thinking about the long term problems that include cross-talk and the opportunities of better train identification.. While train identification is not strictly needed on a computerised layout there are benefits.. One example is where turnouts fail to operate and a train finds itself on the wrong line - train identification would help to detect the event and allow the computer to take corrective action..
Adrian
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Offline TEEWolf  
#17 Posted : 24 July 2016 03:20:21(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Quote:

Hi Adrian,

I've been having some problems with my s88 communications, and I noticed you mentioned the HSI-88 unit, which I have interpreted as being a device which speeds up the communications of the s88 to the PC. Firstly, is this correct?

If so, here's my problem. I'm using TrainController and I have setup the program for trains to stop at certain locations. Most of the time they do this, but occasionally, they over run the stop mark. I'm using occupancy sensors in each block and I feel that when the train overruns, it's because the s88 sensor hasn't sent the information fast enough to the program for the train to slow down. Therefore, if I use an HSI-88, it might resolve my problem.

What do you think?

Regards
Greg


Hi Gregg,

which type of occupancy sensor are you using?
Maerklin offers 3 types of possibilities:
- contact track
- switch in the track (Maerklin speeks from a "circuit track" e.g. art# 24994)
- dry reed contact.

How did you get the idea, that it is the communication speed, that sometimes your sensors do not work correctly?

Regards

Wolfgang

Offline DaleSchultz  
#18 Posted : 21 September 2016 14:28:47(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Eric, one of our members has produced an S88 with all its parts and instructions for a fraction of the money., he also got his own website, own computer program, operational arrival and departure sign. just can't think of his name, I think his first name was: got it: Dale Schultz

John


All correct, except for the s88 part! I have mostly used the the Viessmann s88 modules.

The modules I built are the Viessman signal control modules bought as unassembled kits from Viessmann.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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