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Offline baggio  
#1 Posted : 03 July 2016 17:07:49(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
I have been noticing that electric wires that are covered seem nonetheless prone to transmitting current to other covered wires. This happens if two wires touch each other, even at the places where each wire is covered by the plastic.

What I am getting at is that the plastic that covers these wires does not seem thick enough to insulate the wires. This result is either a short circuit or current flow when you do not want it to flow when the wires touch each other.

That seems strange since I would have thought that the plastic would in fact insulate the wire inside it from interfering with another plastic-covered wire.

I wonder if this has to to with the thickness of the plastic that covers the wire.

I have noticed this problem with the very thin wires that are used in putting together those current-cutting switches in analogue operation or in the Marklin feeder wires that are used in the amplifier boxes to give power to the tracks. These wires are thinner than the standard wires used in Marklin analogue operation that go from the analogue transformer to the track.

Has anyone else noticed this problem?
Offline PMPeter  
#2 Posted : 03 July 2016 17:13:41(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,274
Location: Port Moody, BC
That is very unlikely at the low voltages we are dealing with unless there is a defect in the insulation. What does get transmitted through the insulation is the electromagnetic waves which could cause interference to adjacent wires, but a dead short is highly unlikely.

If you are experiencing a dead short between 2 insulated wires touching each other at a nominal 20V, there has to be metal to metal contact somewhere.

Peter
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Offline analogmike  
#3 Posted : 04 July 2016 03:27:54(UTC)
analogmike

United States   
Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 739
Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
I agree with Peter. Something strange is going on. Where did you get this wire? Mikey
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
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Offline cookee_nz  
#4 Posted : 04 July 2016 04:21:11(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,953
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
That is very unlikely at the low voltages we are dealing with unless there is a defect in the insulation. What does get transmitted through the insulation is the electromagnetic waves which could cause interference to adjacent wires, but a dead short is highly unlikely.

If you are experiencing a dead short between 2 insulated wires touching each other at a nominal 20V, there has to be metal to metal contact somewhere.

Peter


The effect here is 'induction' and when it is intended is very useful - Transformers being the example we are most commonly exposed to in our Hobby but I agree with Peter that at the low voltages we are talking about here, any detectable short-circuit would be unlikely.

On the other hand, those of us that deal in the IT world are well aware of the problems that can arise from incorrect shielding and a good example is twisted-pair Network cabling. Interference or 'cross-talk' from one pair to another can be quite a problem which is why Ethernet cable is twisted within the sheathing in a very specific manner and even bending the wire incorrectly can lead to degradation of the signal.

Without seeing your setup Silvano it's hard to imagine what may be the issue but don't overlook things such as any staples used to secure cabling, or a single stray strand of twisted-flexible wire that might be making contact with an adjacent terminal, or two adjacent plugs with exposed screws making contact.

These shorts can be hard to track down and it can be helpful to 'divide and conquor' your wiring to find the culprit. Isolate the circuit that is giving problems, and make sure it's disconnected at both ends, then start your troubleshooting wire by wire, preferably using a multi-meter set at the lowest resistance setting and then the highest just to be sure.

Hope this helps

Steve
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline baggio  
#5 Posted : 04 July 2016 14:27:40(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Thank you all for your helpful feedback. ThumpUp

Presently, the main issue is contact between sheathed wires when I use a switch to give or withhold current. Two trains at one point became engaged Scared but I was able to solve the problem by avoiding contact between some of the sheathed wires.

So, in a way the problem is solved (or so it seems) but I thought it was very strange that there could be interference. From what I read here, it may very well be that I was right. The wires (and covers) are very thin.

Have a good work week everyone.

BigGrin
Offline PMPeter  
#6 Posted : 04 July 2016 16:21:13(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,274
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Thank you all for your helpful feedback. ThumpUp

Presently, the main issue is contact between sheathed wires when I use a switch to give or withhold current. Two trains at one point became engaged Scared but I was able to solve the problem by avoiding contact between some of the sheathed wires.

So, in a way the problem is solved (or so it seems) but I thought it was very strange that there could be interference. From what I read here, it may very well be that I was right. The wires (and covers) are very thin.

Have a good work week everyone.

BigGrin


I'm not sure what you mean by sheathed wires. That in electrical terms normally means it has a metallic covering either as a braid or foil which is used for added protection or shielding as previously mentioned by Steve. Based on your previous description I do not believe you are using sheathed wires. However, if you are and depending on how the sheathing is connected on each wire (normally grounded at one end) you could have a potential of creating a short if the sheathing on one wire is connected to the brown "O" and the sheathing on the other wire is incorrectly connected to "B' for some reason. If that were the case touching the sheathing together from these two wires would create a short.

Marklin wire for whatever reason does not have the voltage rating (or any other information) marked on the insulation. However, other manufacturers' insulation quite often shows that the insulation is good to 300 V for this gauge of wire. Therefore, even though it is very thin, contact between the insulation of two wires at 20 V should not have any possibility of creating a short circuit. You need to look elsewhere as to where you are getting metal to metal contact between the two wires that is causing you the grief. As Steve pointed out it is usually at a termination point where you can have a very fine single strand of wire sticking out and touching the adjacent connection or even the screws from adjacent banana plugs touching each other. Moving the wires to separate the insulation contact may be enough to move the touching strand of wire or screw contact to eliminate the short circuit, but not the overall problem.

Peter
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Offline baggio  
#7 Posted : 05 July 2016 03:41:46(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Blushing I thought a "sheathed" wire was any wire covered in plastic.... Blushing

Thanks, Peter, for the additional information. ThumpUp

I will monitor the problem and if it happens again, I will try to pin point the cause.
Offline PMPeter  
#8 Posted : 05 July 2016 04:31:16(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,274
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Blushing I thought a "sheathed" wire was any wire covered in plastic.... Blushing

Thanks, Peter, for the additional information. ThumpUp

I will monitor the problem and if it happens again, I will try to pin point the cause.


A single wire (solid core or stranded core) covered with PVC, nylon, etc. is referred to as an insulated wire. A group of insulated wires bundled together and covered by another material becomes a cable. That additional covering can be considered the sheathing and can be metal, nylon, PVC, various layers of different material depending on intended use, and so on. In Canada a good example would be our NMD90 house wiring. For a normal 15 A circuit the NMD90 cable consists of a Black insulated wire, a White insulated wire, and a bare copper wire, all covered by a nylon sheath if installed in wood frame walls, or similar CORFLEX type cable with an interlocking aluminum or steel sheath if being installed in metal stud walls.

For us in model railroading we generally use insulated wires for the power, accessory and lighting feeds, possibly twisted pair cables for communication and feedback circuits, and I know some modelers use telephone cable for their signal controls. So what you use depends on what the voltage and current draw is expected to be.

I assumed in your posting that you meant insulation by sheathing, but based on your problem I just wanted to rule out the possibility of you actually using metallic sheathed cables that could have the sheathing connected differently between 2 cables.

Cheers
Peter
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#9 Posted : 05 July 2016 23:13:07(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,101
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Blushing I thought a "sheathed" wire was any wire covered in plastic.... Blushing

Thanks, Peter, for the additional information. ThumpUp

I will monitor the problem and if it happens again, I will try to pin point the cause.


Yes it is, Peter is thinking of shielded wire.

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Offline PMPeter  
#10 Posted : 06 July 2016 01:34:01(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,274
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Blushing I thought a "sheathed" wire was any wire covered in plastic.... Blushing

Thanks, Peter, for the additional information. ThumpUp

I will monitor the problem and if it happens again, I will try to pin point the cause.


Yes it is, Peter is thinking of shielded wire.



No I am not thinking of shielded wire per-se, however, the thought crossed my mind that he may be using shielded wire since he is getting a short circuit by touching the two wires together on their insulated portion.

Perhaps in the UK sheathing and insulation are interchangeable words. However, as per my follow-up post a single wire here is normally referred to as an insulated wire, not a sheathed wire. A cable on the other hand containing several insulated wires has an outer sheathing that can be metallic, nylon, PVC or other material.

It's a matter of terminology as used in the electrical trade that can cause misunderstandings as to what is actually meant if someone refers to sheathing.

Cheers
Peter
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Offline Minok  
#11 Posted : 06 July 2016 01:48:39(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Agree with what others have said about the insulation/shielding of wires.

Two wires (conductors) in close proximity with only the insulation around them, will not transmit electrical energy between them. If the voltages in the two wires are DC then this wold certainly be true.

But if the voltages and thus current in one (or both) wires is alternating, that is, it changes over time, then there can be cross-talk between the wires, even with insulation.
The electrical energy (current) in a wire generates a magnetic field (magnetic energy) that passes thorough the insulation and can be picked up by the other wire nearby. This is how an antenna is designed to work.
That picked up magnetic energy in the next wire is transformed into electrical energy (current) in that next wire.

So if you have two wires running parallel, a common issue, and one wires has an AC signal running through it, then a lower amplitude version of that same signal is detected in the parallel wire runs.

Its a reason for not running signal wires parallel and along power wires in general ... but in Märklin Digital, its all on the same wires.

For your specific problem of the outputs of switches - that could be the control lines of the switch, but also the switch itself being problematic, could it not? Without knowing the circuit as built, its not possible to provide greater advice. With railroad voltages if the insulation is intact there should be no power transferred to other wires via the insulation. It could be shorting somewhere at the ends, or very low signal strength data could be corrupted by higher power signal lines.
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