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Offline Sparrow  
#1 Posted : 20 May 2016 10:05:58(UTC)
Sparrow

Spain   
Joined: 05/09/2011(UTC)
Posts: 219
This week I received my brand new 29000 set with the black MS2.
It carries SW version 2.5.

When I plugged it alongside one of my two old grey MS2´s (SW 1.8) the latter asked me permission to refresh software version. I said "yeah" and it started to update. When finished, it still showed SW 1.8.
Well, I selected "update MS" in the menu and got a message like "SW is 2.5. Update to 2.5?" I said no, but the MS info stubbornly showed SW 1.8.

Still scratching my head, I unplugged the black MS2 and plugged another grey MS2 (SW 2.3) and again it showed the message asking permission to update. The process took place smoothly but the second grey MS2 insisted in showing SW 2.3.

And now comes the funny thing:

Decided to explore all ways, I selected "update MS" in the first of the grey MS´s (the one I had updated in the first place, which showed SW 1.8) and got a message like "SW 2.3, update to 2.5?" Said yes and the second grey MS updated, rebooted, and now showed SW 2.5.
Of course next step was to select "update" in the second MS, and, yes, the first MS was succesfully updated to SW 2.5.

Now I have 3 MS´s all happily updated to 2.5, but can´t really tell how the whole process works! LOL

Maybe some of you can explain the "rationale" behind all this.

Best regards.
Luis.
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Offline RayF  
#2 Posted : 20 May 2016 10:48:20(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I went throuh the process last month when I brought back home the new MS2 I had bought with a start set on my business trip. Something similar happened but I got there in the end. Did you plug the MS2 in with the track box already powered up or did you power it up with both MS2 already connected? I've found strange things happen when you try to plug MS2 into the track box with the power on.

Another unexpected outcome of the process for me was that the new MS2 will now always be slave and the older one master. I really wanted my brand new controller to be the master, but that's not how it works, apparently...
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 20 May 2016 11:01:27(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Sparrow Go to Quoted Post
Maybe some of you can explain the "rationale" behind all this.
The process is like all Märklin software: user-friendly, intuitive, transparent.

Each MS2 needs the update twice.
Once it pulls it automatically after a prompt - these are the files that will be used to transfer the upgrade to other MS2.

The other transfer will be pushed from the MS2 where you invoke "Update MS2". You should have invoked this on your black MS2 to upgrade the grey MS2.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Sparrow  
#4 Posted : 20 May 2016 11:19:46(UTC)
Sparrow

Spain   
Joined: 05/09/2011(UTC)
Posts: 219
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
The process is like all Märklin software: user-friendly, intuitive, transparent.

Each MS2 needs the update twice.
Once it pulls it automatically after a prompt - these are the files that will be used to transfer the upgrade to other MS2.

The other transfer will be pushed from the MS2 where you invoke "Update MS2". You should have invoked this on your black MS2 to upgrade the grey MS2.



LOL Yes, I think I should have done that in the first place, but feared the new MS could be "backdated" to 1.8!

Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I went throuh the process last month when I brought back home the new MS2 I had bought with a start set on my business trip. Something similar happened but I got there in the end. Did you plug the MS2 in with the track box already powered up or did you power it up with both MS2 already connected? I've found strange things happen when you try to plug MS2 into the track box with the power on.

Another unexpected outcome of the process for me was that the new MS2 will now always be slave and the older one master. I really wanted my brand new controller to be the master, but that's not how it works, apparently...


I plugged both MS to de trackbox before turning power on. I concur on the fact that MS,s don´t like to be plugged to a powered trackbox BigGrin
Regarding the Master-slave relationship, I think it depends on the serial number of the MS, so the oldest is always the master.
Best regards.
Luis.
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Offline Unholz  
#5 Posted : 20 May 2016 11:29:46(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: Sparrow Go to Quoted Post
Yes, I think I should have done that in the first place, but feared the new MS could be "backdated" to 1.8!


Oh, makes me happy - so I am not alone. Wink ThumpUp

After some trial and error, I now also seem to have two MS 2's happily updated to 2.5, but please don't ask me how it finally worked. Yes indeed - "user-friendly, intuitive, transparent". LOL Blink
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Offline xxup  
#6 Posted : 20 May 2016 12:58:09(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
...The process is like all Märklin software: user-friendly, intuitive, transparent...


Bug free?? That spectacular implementation of the CS2 port to Windows comes to mind.. LOL

Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
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Offline Minok  
#7 Posted : 06 June 2016 23:07:20(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
This sort of update process for firmware isn't unusual when the the software isn't entirely composed of only one file.
In the case I suspect that to 2.5 you had to be at 2.3 first, so when you connected up the 1.8 system, it first had to get to a 2.x system, which it got it from 1.8 to 2.3 first, then a second update got it from 2.3 to 2.5.
Another possibility is the internal code that displays the version number wasn't pulling the right version data initially.

Think of it like an MS Windows update - you often need to install updates, reboot, which then lets you install more updates and reboot which then makes even more updates available.. . Its a pain in backside for sure.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline baggio  
#8 Posted : 07 June 2016 03:07:26(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
The process is like all Märklin software: user-friendly, intuitive, transparent.


Is this a joke, or did you get a job at M's? LOL

Nice explanation, however. Thanks.
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Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 07 June 2016 07:57:57(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
In the case I suspect that to 2.5 you had to be at 2.3 first, so when you connected up the 1.8 system, it first had to get to a 2.x system, which it got it from 1.8 to 2.3 first, then a second update got it from 2.3 to 2.5.
Nope.

Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Another possibility is the internal code that displays the version number wasn't pulling the right version data initially.
Nope.

There are several files, several transfers are needed - some transfers get pulled (the MS2 with the old version prompts to start the transfer), some transfers get pushed (the user has to start them on the MS2 with the new version).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 07 June 2016 08:00:05(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Is this a joke, or did you get a job at M's? LOL
Joking? Never! Didn't get a job offer either.

"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1)

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline RayF  
#11 Posted : 07 June 2016 20:19:05(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I think we all agree that documentation is not Marklin's strong point.

Unfortunately this seems to be a common problem with many manufacturers in today's world.

I just bought a new compact camera (Sony) which came with a very promising looking instruction manual which is about 3 cm thick! I was very disappointed to find that only 4 pages are in English and the rest of the book is the same information repeated in about 30 languages! As suggested in the manual I went to the on-line manual, hoping for more information, but it only repeats what is printed in the booklet. I am left wondering how to use many of the functions that I can select on my new camera.

I had a similar problem with my car. When I bought it I couldn't figure out how to set the clock. The instructions that came with the car were for a completely different model. I had to go to my local dealer and beg them to explain it to me. The workshop manager couldn't figure it out either and had to phone another dealer to find out.

I think young people are born knowing all this stuff and have no need of instructions any more, so they don't give any importance to printing adequate manuals...BigGrin
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline baggio  
#12 Posted : 07 June 2016 20:23:38(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Ray, you are assuming young people today can read!!LOL
Offline RayF  
#13 Posted : 08 June 2016 00:07:31(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Ray, you are assuming young people today can read!!LOL


I'd be careful what I say about young people. They'll probably be caring for us in the not too distant future! BigGrin

Seriously though, young people today, at least those I come into contact with, are intelligent, motivated and ambitious. They are better educated and better informed about the world than my generation ever was. I think our future is in good hands if we don't mess it up too much ourselves!

By the way, Silvano, according to your profile you were born in 1903, which makes you about 113 years old. Very impressive!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Minok  
#14 Posted : 08 June 2016 00:59:10(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
In the case I suspect that to 2.5 you had to be at 2.3 first, so when you connected up the 1.8 system, it first had to get to a 2.x system, which it got it from 1.8 to 2.3 first, then a second update got it from 2.3 to 2.5.
Nope.

Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Another possibility is the internal code that displays the version number wasn't pulling the right version data initially.
Nope.

There are several files, several transfers are needed - some transfers get pulled (the MS2 with the old version prompts to start the transfer), some transfers get pushed (the user has to start them on the MS2 with the new version).


Ah, ok. I should have included another option then: Märklin's firmware update process is badly designed.

Could it be that when the system sees another controller on the bus it ensures that the communications protocol and some other key software is brought up to the same level/files but not necessarily the full software.. .hence no version change...

and as you said, only an explicitly launched request from the user pulls all of the remaining software up to the same level.


or, back to option 3 - badly designed firmware update process.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline baggio  
#15 Posted : 08 June 2016 01:29:41(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Option 4: Come to Toronto and have Mike here upgrade it for you for a fee. BigGrin
Offline baggio  
#16 Posted : 08 June 2016 01:31:22(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I'd be careful what I say about young people.They'll probably be caring for us in the not too distant future!


In that case, you can be sure we will die FAST while they play with their Iphones! Scared
Offline baggio  
#17 Posted : 08 June 2016 01:48:27(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I think our future is in good hands


You are an optimist, Ray. Young people (nurses and doctors in hospitals included) would rather see us quietly die than care for any of us.

Whatever you do, NEVER go to a nursing home and make sure you PAY people to look after you so you can fire them if they don't. This is not a joke. I really feel this way. Cursing

No, I was not born in 1903; I told the webmaster time and again that I was born in 1893, but he does not believe me. LOL

Seriously, I am 61 years old, being born on Friday, Jan 17, 1955 in Rome, Italy. By the way, in Italy, the 17th is the unlucky number. There was even a movie made with this date as the title with Fernandel (a wonderful French actor of yesteryear): it was Friday the 17th. How young are you, Ray? Wink

Now, what about these Jays... we say in Toronto to change topic.

A bientot, mes amis.

Offline H0  
#18 Posted : 08 June 2016 07:20:51(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
and as you said, only an explicitly launched request from the user pulls all of the remaining software up to the same level.
Think of the MS2 as a memory stick with installed firmware.

When two MS2s come together and one MS2 finds newer "baggage files" on the other MS2 it will prompt for permission to pull the files.
These "baggage files" will be used to push firmware to other MS2s and to the track box. Besides the firmware there also are files with the product database and the language files.

These baggage files can be deleted from an MS2. If an MS2 takes a very long time to boot, then maybe the baggage files are damaged. Delete those files and they will be pulled from the other MS2 the next time you power up the system.
I had a situation where my Master MS2 booted very slowly. The quick Slave MS2 thus became master for a few seconds until the real master said "Hello" and took over the leading role.

Take an MS2 with version 1.8 and one with version 2.5 and connect them. Say Yes to any prompt - and both will have the same "baggage files".
But to bring the "1.8" MS2 to version 2.5 you have to invoke "Update MS2" from the "2.5" MS2.
If you don't do that, then you have an MS2 with firmware 1.8 installed that can install firmware 2.5 to other MS2, but cannot update itself.
Confusing?

Invoking "Update MS2" or "Update Trackbox" on the MS2 will lead to a prompt showing the current version and the version that will be installed - read this message carefully to avoid downgrading a firmware accidentally.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Minok  
#19 Posted : 09 June 2016 23:10:29(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

Confusing?


Nope, learned something new.
I'd not thought about the fact the MS's carry firmware payload not used by them but to update trackboxes and other potential stuff, plus generic data files that are not actual firmware (versioned).
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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