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Offline Oliver nagel  
#1 Posted : 14 May 2016 14:05:31(UTC)
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Oliver nagel

United States   
Joined: 30/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 121
Location: Allegany
I have a Ontario Northlander 37500 that has a dead decoder. What do you think is a good decoder replacement ?
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Offline Dave Banks  
#2 Posted : 15 May 2016 11:50:31(UTC)
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Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,026
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
Can you attach picture of dead decoder in place in loco body. This loco does not have an exploded view in the data base. What happened to it to make you believe decoder is destroyed?



D.A.Banks
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Offline Oliver nagel  
#3 Posted : 15 May 2016 14:33:06(UTC)
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Oliver nagel

United States   
Joined: 30/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 121
Location: Allegany
I hooked the lok up to regular blue box transformer measured voltage going into the decoder and found no power going to the motor. I did some looking on the internet the decoder is $240.00 and I don't Know if the sound card is good also ( that's another $200). So I guess I am going to put in a Loksound Decoder.
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Offline jvuye  
#4 Posted : 15 May 2016 16:24:42(UTC)
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jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Oliver nagel Go to Quoted Post
I hooked the lok up to regular blue box transformer measured voltage going into the decoder and found no power going to the motor. I did some looking on the internet the decoder is $240.00 and I don't Know if the sound card is good also ( that's another $200). So I guess I am going to put in a Loksound Decoder.


I suppose you have assumed the decoder is "dead" because it doesn't react to the commands of a Central Station or Mobile Station, correct?
And if yes, you have verified the address set in the loco. (If it is second hand, the previous owner may have changed the factory settings)
One (big!) word of caution also when hooking it up to a blue box transformer: the reverse (over-voltage) pulse of these can easily destroy a decoder, as it exceeds the decoder maximum voltage rating.
Other than that I subscribe to the suggestion of a picture, maybe we can point to a couple of other suggestions before an (expensive) organ transplant.
Cheers
Jacques


Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline river6109  
#5 Posted : 15 May 2016 17:56:40(UTC)
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river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,715
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Oliver, it is always a good idea to ask questions before hand and not after the fact and I hope other forum members can learn from this. of course in hindsight it is easy to say what you or everyone else (including myself) should have done. the only problem with this is however there is a cost involved in it and especially with sound decoders it isn't cheap, You've received sound advice and before jumping the gun, yes it would be an idea if possible to try the decoder on another locos if you can. as Jacques indicated the blue transformer is a killer for modern decoders not while your loco goes in one direction but the moment you change the direction, you can say good buy to it (and I have done it as well before realizing the mistake I've made.
there are certain benefits to buy an ESU lokpilot or sound decoder, 1.) you don't have to send the whole loco in for repair if anything goes wrong with the decoder, 2.) there is a 3 year guarantee with all ESU decoders (send them back to Germany) 3.) programming decoders either from Märklin or ESU is now possible with Märklin being late off the mark providing a lokprogrammer and 3.) there may be an advantage to extra sound functions or sound accessories with ESU sound decoders.

ESU sound decoder: 54343 or 54843 (M4)

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline biedmatt  
#6 Posted : 15 May 2016 19:04:17(UTC)
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biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Isn't this the version with an F unit instead of the original motive power? If so, finding an F unit sound file would be easy, but what about the horn's? Were those changed when the units arrived from Europe? Changed when it switched from the original power to the F unit? Or were they always a Swiss horn? Nothing insurmountable or even difficult with an ESU decoder and a LokProgrammer, but something to keep in mind.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline biedmatt  
#7 Posted : 15 May 2016 19:28:36(UTC)
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biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline Dave Banks  
#8 Posted : 15 May 2016 23:58:11(UTC)
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Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,026
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.

Oliver please take note of what Jacques, Matt & John have had to say. Are any of your other trains digital or do you have only analog locos? You are going to need a digital controller to control this loco. Use the blue transformer maybe to power accessories like lights ETC on a completely separate circuit. Do you have a friend with a Marklin digital layout that you can put that loco on his layout & see if that system will recognize your loco. I say this assuming you do not have a Central or mobile station. Pictures of the inside of your loco would be helpful. Lastly, at any time that you were trying to operate your loco with said blue transformer, was there any loud pop & or bad smell of electrically burnt circuitry. Hopefully none of this happened.


D.A.Banks
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Offline Oliver nagel  
#9 Posted : 16 May 2016 00:27:40(UTC)
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Oliver nagel

United States   
Joined: 30/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 121
Location: Allegany
To begin I put the Lok on the programing track and ecos2 said "no engine on track" during a address search. The lok address according to the switches on the decoder is 19 so I put address 19 into the ecos with Motorola 28 steps, nothing happened.Then I hooked it up to the blue M transformer and applied only 12VAC, nothing bad decoder. The decoder is almost 20 years old it died of old age.

If you want a lot of information on the decoder check this web site https://www.bogobit.de/sound/29848-f7/
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Offline Oliver nagel  
#10 Posted : 16 May 2016 01:08:50(UTC)
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Oliver nagel

United States   
Joined: 30/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 121
Location: Allegany
Thanks biedmatt I am going to bread board the circuit and test it.
BigGrin
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Offline Dave Banks  
#11 Posted : 16 May 2016 01:41:17(UTC)
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Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,026
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
Hi Oliver, so you have an Ecos 50200. Great piece of equipment. I have same. Your decoder is most probably of Motorola origin. Go through the motion please of going from address 1 to 80. Set to "Motorola 14" & go through each address. Take you a little while. I had this happen to me once & I was delighted when loco suddenly took off & all was good. Have only that loco on the track. I also just noticed that if you have the same decoder as the one illustrated in "saebonet" website then you can set address to what you want. Set all the switches to off gently & set 1, 4, 5. & 7 up / on for address "three" & give that a try. Good luck. Dave...
D.A.Banks
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Offline Oliver nagel  
#12 Posted : 16 May 2016 01:51:29(UTC)
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Oliver nagel

United States   
Joined: 30/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 121
Location: Allegany
Will try that thanksLaugh
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Offline river6109  
#13 Posted : 16 May 2016 06:57:44(UTC)
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river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,715
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Oliver, we are getting more information and this is good, the more information the more we can help you in the right direction. with an old decoder you will find the ECoS is not the tool to find the decoder address and as previous mentioned go through each number from 1-80 if your decoder has a an 8 digit keyboard you can read the decoder number by comparing each number from a table coding template and this will tell you what number the decoder is. if it is a delta decoder with 4 keyboard numbers (1-4) you also can source the number your loco decoder is set. (delta-digital decoder numbers)

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline jvuye  
#14 Posted : 16 May 2016 10:06:14(UTC)
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jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Oliver nagel Go to Quoted Post
To begin I put the Lok on the programing track and ecos2 said "no engine on track" during a address search. The lok address according to the switches on the decoder is 19 so I put address 19 into the ecos with Motorola 28 steps, nothing happened.Then I hooked it up to the blue M transformer and applied only 12VAC, nothing bad decoder. The decoder is almost 20 years old it died of old age.

If you want a lot of information on the decoder check this web site https://www.bogobit.de/sound/29848-f7/


Good info. It helps **tremendously** when you describe what you've done.

May I submit that you may have something really simple happening here?
The indication "no engine on track" may indicate that the power doesn't even get to the decoder!
Most likely, you need to first and foremost connect the lok with the pilot car (yes, this model has pick up inversion, so pilot car is indispensable for any test)Wink Wink
(No need of the two other coaches for this test, keep it easy to handle)

If that doesn't solve it, on both ends (with the now connected pilot car) do the following:

Check the pick up shoe and the (soldered) wire connection at the front bogie.
One ordinary culprit is slight oxidation of the contact on the back of the insulating plate of the pick up shoe.
Take it off, clean it and do the same on the contact plate that's on the bogie's frame.
Bend the contact fingers a bit before re-attaching, and you should be all right.
I have also seen the asymmetrical type of pick up installed backward...with contacts touching nothing.
When done, check continuity (with an ohmeter) between pick up shoe and the red wire solder point on the decoder.

But I bet, it's the pilot car you need!!

So what's happening now?

Cheers

Edited by user 16 May 2016 18:39:32(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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H0
Offline Oliver nagel  
#15 Posted : 16 May 2016 20:20:42(UTC)
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Oliver nagel

United States   
Joined: 30/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 121
Location: Allegany
Never thought putting the second lok on the track I just put the F7 on the programming track thanks !
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Offline jvuye  
#16 Posted : 16 May 2016 20:22:38(UTC)
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jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Oliver nagel Go to Quoted Post
Never thought putting the second lok on the track I just put the F7 on the programming track thanks !

Don't forget to **connect** them too!!BigGrin
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline H0  
#17 Posted : 16 May 2016 20:25:31(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,263
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Oliver nagel Go to Quoted Post
[...] so I put address 19 into the ecos with Motorola 28 steps
There will be malfunctions with Motorola 28. You should use Motorola 27 with this train.

Good luck when trying with the control car connected.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline mike c  
#18 Posted : 16 May 2016 21:36:17(UTC)
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mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,892
Location: Montreal, QC
I am not sure how the 37500 was wired up, but if it was like the older models of the RAm Edelweiss TEE, the model had a relay which selected the front or rear slider.
If you are testing only the F7 unit and the train was last recorded in pilot coach first mode, you will need to couple the pilot coach and connect the wires in order to activate the relay to switch the power selection back to the F7.
Please try this and let us know what happens before you make any further modifications.

(Message to myself… Always read Jacques Vuyes answers before posting the same thing yourself)

Regards

Mike C
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Offline Dave Banks  
#19 Posted : 16 May 2016 22:38:17(UTC)
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Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,026
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
Oliver you may want to look at this Table of Marklin loco decoder addresses to determine the correct address of your loco:

UserPostedImage
D.A.Banks
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Offline Oliver nagel  
#20 Posted : 17 May 2016 03:36:19(UTC)
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Oliver nagel

United States   
Joined: 30/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 121
Location: Allegany
Thank you gentlemen the Northlander lives I put the second lok on the end and it started working. But I noticed the relay which switches the pick up shoe was sticking so I had to tap the the top of the F7 lok until the relay loosen up and worked properly. I oiled the cars and loks and ran it for about a hour. No more problems. Thanks again guys.LOL

P.S. The whistle and bell sounds work also just a little loud.
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Offline mike c  
#21 Posted : 17 May 2016 04:47:43(UTC)
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mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,892
Location: Montreal, QC
For the record, The Northlander and the TEE RAm that it was born at have one locomotive and three cars, including a pilot coach, which is not a "second" locomotive.
I'm glad that everything is working once again.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline Dave Banks  
#22 Posted : 17 May 2016 09:40:46(UTC)
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Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,026
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
Oliver, I am pleased that your Northlander is up & running & it just goes to show that the quality of the product shines through after all these years. I am glade this forum could be of assistance to you. Amen ThumpUp
D.A.Banks
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