Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline thomas buckley  
#1 Posted : 09 May 2016 18:24:20(UTC)
thomas buckley

United States   
Joined: 04/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 114
Location: California, warner Springs
do digital and catenary mix? can digital layout have the two run independent?
Offline PMPeter  
#2 Posted : 09 May 2016 19:41:44(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,274
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: thomas buckley Go to Quoted Post
do digital and catenary mix? can digital layout have the two run independent?


It depends on what you mean by mix.

In my case I am currently running main track as digital and catenary as analog with loco sliders removed for the electric locs.

In the future I am contemplating feeding the catenary through a booster and have it as digital. Not sure how feasible that is and I'm sure someone will comment as to the pitfalls of trying to do that.

Peter
Offline nitramretep  
#3 Posted : 09 May 2016 20:33:29(UTC)
nitramretep

United States   
Joined: 22/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: lower hudson valley, ny
I believe catenary is not the ideal digital pathway. A friend of mine uses catenary with out power and relies on the rails for digital transmissions. In effect the catenary becomes a prop, a much better purpose! I am sure many might disagree but even larger scale systems have had issue with overhead power let alone digital signal communications.
Offline witzlerh  
#4 Posted : 09 May 2016 20:53:18(UTC)
witzlerh

Canada   
Joined: 25/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 417
Location: Sherwood Park, AB, Canada
Yes you can run digital on overhead....within reason.

At SUPTERTRAIN in Calgary in April we had the 3 rail layout with catenary (post 2000 catenary) and several of our overhead only loks ran fine. It was a 9 m long dog-bone layout and we used C-clips to connect the masts to the track.

I say within reason for the following reasons.

It took about 10 trips to rub away excess varnish to maintain connectivity. on a 18 m loop there were 5 spots that had issues at first but slowly disappeared.

The catenary MUST be within the stagger tolerance of the pantographs. On Marklin pantographs, there is a painted section at the outer limits and once we adjusted the masts and/or wire, connections were good. We also spiked the track to keep it from moving when we had parallel masts.
This also means that the pantographs have to be in good condition.

The mast cross arms must be parallel to the track to avoid having the pantographs hitting them. We had 5 snag areas when we first ran the loks (very slowly of course!) and eventually got them straight. This also means that the pantographs also must be parallel to the cross arms.

There must be adequate power drops for the layout. We had 4 powered masts. I would have more on a permanent layout. I would also use the Marklin all metal masts rather than the Viessmann masts that have the insulated cross arms. Yes you could get clips that will carry the current but that is more opportunity for a loose contact.

Older decoders (fx or very early mfx) may not handle the more frequent power interruptions ( you can only have one pantograph up per lok or you push the wire out of the way) compared to many more powered wheels or sliders. They get confused and have to be reset or replaced.

Marklin has been quietly reintroducing the ability to ether pull power from above or below.

As I just moved, my next layout will have catenary as I enjoy it. However I will not go crazy with it and have it over all track as a lot of catenary makes it hard to work on the layout (clean track, disconnecting and connecting trains.)
Harald
CS2 DB & Canadian Era 3-6
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by witzlerh
Offline nitramretep  
#5 Posted : 09 May 2016 21:54:35(UTC)
nitramretep

United States   
Joined: 22/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: lower hudson valley, ny
I stand corrected!
Offline witzlerh  
#6 Posted : 09 May 2016 22:42:46(UTC)
witzlerh

Canada   
Joined: 25/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 417
Location: Sherwood Park, AB, Canada
It is possible...but a little more complex and with complexity, more things to go wrong..

Another bonus with live catenary is that we can run analogue through the catenary and keep the track digital and get the best of both worlds. They share the same ground. I did that 2 years ago at GETS (Edmonton train show).

That way some AC members could run their loks on the same show layout....provided that they were electric loks.

I have not tried digital catenary with analogue track....yet
Harald
CS2 DB & Canadian Era 3-6
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by witzlerh
Offline GLI  
#7 Posted : 10 May 2016 06:21:23(UTC)
GLI


Joined: 28/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 82
Location: Lithgow NSW Australia
I have a layout which is 3 ail using the catenary only as the third rail. There are no studs for steam of diesel locos. I use Sommerfeldt for the catenary which is soldered at the joints, and Peco flexible track and points. The operating system is DCC. For the smoothest operation of the locos, I have found it better them with both pantographs up (if they have more than one). The only problem I have encountered is that the copper coating on the contact surface of tne wires is rubbed off after usage for some time, and wet weather can cause the exposed steel to rust a little. This can be avoided by applying a light oil to the contact surface of the wire.

Apart from this slight avoidable problem, I have had no problems using digital power through the catenary.

Geoff
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by GLI
Offline thomas buckley  
#8 Posted : 13 May 2016 20:42:33(UTC)
thomas buckley

United States   
Joined: 04/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 114
Location: California, warner Springs
So an analog catenary system can be run together with a digital c track oval?
Offline witzlerh  
#9 Posted : 13 May 2016 22:01:32(UTC)
witzlerh

Canada   
Joined: 25/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 417
Location: Sherwood Park, AB, Canada
Yes. As long as you have the common ground connected (brown wire or "0") on both the booster (or CS2) and trafo.

I would be careful and first try it on a non favored lok to make sure that there are no issues. ( Dirty power, using trafo to also power lights, shorts...etc.)

I heard that old fx or delta decoders would get confused in this arrangement....but I know the newer decoders had no problem.

The older decoders may not have strong enough noise filters in the circuits compared to the new decoders....heck, the new decoders have no problem running on pure analog!

UPDATE:
One thing I should add. It is recommended to only use the modern Grey plastic cased analogue trafo. I think the plastic blue case is OK as well. They have circuitry to clean up the raw power before it hits the rails.

The metal cased trafos can sent out damaging voltage spikes....particularly when you reverse.

The situation that is the most worrisome is this. A older digital decoder sharing track with an analog lok that is used as a switcher. The analogue switching pulses are high voltage pulses compared to regular track voltage.
Harald
CS2 DB & Canadian Era 3-6
Users browsing this topic
Guest
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.383 seconds.