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Offline applor  
#1 Posted : 20 April 2016 01:27:54(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Hey guys,

Struggling to find kits for ash pits - the only one I have found is Faller 120221 though this design requires a parallel track that I will need to squeeze in to my layout:/

Edited by moderator 20 April 2016 13:28:16(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline applor  
#2 Posted : 20 April 2016 02:36:58(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Well I found another one:

faller 120149

Though larger and still requires 2 tracks.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline hgk  
#3 Posted : 20 April 2016 04:15:06(UTC)
hgk


Joined: 10/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 455
Location: Pacific Ocean
Perhaps the pit section can be separated & located to suit your layout. Huh Hmmm, that's not how it works is it?
http://alkemscalemodels.biz/hostructures-1/
-George
Offline BrandonVA  
#4 Posted : 20 April 2016 05:11:08(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Have you seen Vollmer 45741?

Walthers Cornerstone also makes one (3181); but I think you're looking for a German prototype.

https://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-3181

-Brandon

Offline Shamu  
#5 Posted : 20 April 2016 05:34:46(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
Auhagen make a cheep 2 inspection pit kit that I intending using for a cinder pit, just add a small gantry crane.

Faller also make one already with the parts to use with Marklin track whereas the Auhagen you need to add the 3rd rail yourself..... of course its twice or 3 times the price.
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
Offline applor  
#6 Posted : 20 April 2016 06:13:06(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Thanks for the replies guys. I had not seen the Vollmer 45741 though it does not look like it has a pit track?

I had planned to do what this guy did with the thin wire but a smaller ash pit - only one track:

https://www.marklin-user...ts-and-ash-release-rails

It is hard to find details on the included track etc. to fit it in with my layout.
I have been playing with my Bahnbetriebswerke layout and think the Faller 120221 should work:

A) Coaling station - dual track chute 76511 and a crane on the far left line with coal bunker adjacent
B) Ash pit with hoist facing onto the siding where a gondola car can be loaded
C) Locomotive repair shed with inspection pit out the front of the long siding
D) Sanding tower and water spouts alongside the curve

Bahnbetriebswerke.jpg

I think that works pretty well and should be fun.
I think the pit track in the 120221 kit is 172mm which is a bit random in length given it is designed for K track (why not 156/168.9/180mm ?) but I should be able to make it work.
The 120149 kit is some 344mm which is just far too long.

modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline Tom Jessop  
#7 Posted : 20 April 2016 06:50:10(UTC)
Tom Jessop

Australia   
Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 800
Location: Newcastle NSW Australia


Eric ,

From what I have seen & worked on as a loco driver down here in Newcastle ,all ash pits are on a thru road & never on a siding . If on a siding it means a double movement in & out .Usually the ash pit is placed before the coal stage along with the water crane , then the coal stage then on to the turntable for turning into the shed or placed on a ready road for early departure , sometimes a water crane may be also placed on the departure roads for that last top up .


Cheers Tom in Oz
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Offline applor  
#8 Posted : 20 April 2016 06:56:10(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Thanks for your input Tom. I did believe that was most likely and thanks for confirming but with my space available I am not sure I can fit all that in before the turntable.
I will have a play and see if I can make something work.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline PJMärklin  
#9 Posted : 20 April 2016 12:52:31(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Hey guys,

Struggling to find kits for ash pits - the only one I have found is Faller 120221 though this design requires a parallel track that I will need to squeeze in to my layout:/




Hello Eric,

I used the Faller unit on my layout and have been happy with it.


Regards,

PJ


UserPostedImage


UserPostedImage


UserPostedImage


UserPostedImage


UserPostedImage


UserPostedImage


UserPostedImage
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Offline BrandonVA  
#10 Posted : 20 April 2016 15:21:03(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Eric,

This is a little off topic, but I see you're using the slim turnouts. I don't think there will be enough space between parallel tracks if a 2203 piece is not used between the 2272 turnout (curve side) and 2274 curve piece. Technically the geometry is allowed, but if you can mock it up to check it would probably be a good idea.

Bahnbetriebswerke.jpg
wideKturnouts.JPG

-Brandon
Offline BrandonVA  
#11 Posted : 20 April 2016 15:27:56(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for the replies guys. I had not seen the Vollmer 45741 though it does not look like it has a pit track?


Sorry, I thought you were looking for the conveyor.

-Brandon
Offline applor  
#12 Posted : 20 April 2016 23:03:48(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
Eric,

This is a little off topic, but I see you're using the slim turnouts. I don't think there will be enough space between parallel tracks if a 2203 piece is not used between the 2272 turnout (curve side) and 2274 curve piece. Technically the geometry is allowed, but if you can mock it up to check it would probably be a good idea.

-Brandon


Enough space for what Brandon? Those locations circled with the wide radius turnouts are freight sidings so the 57mm spacing is of no concern.
There is nothing wrong with 57mm spacing except that a lot of model kits come designed for 64.6mm spacing.
The areas requiring the 64.6mm spacing for the coaling station and ash pits are standard turnouts so that is all correct.

I tried changed things around so that the turntable entry has no interruptions, though it did mean extending the layout to the wall which means another access hole above.
While it could work it does not look as fun/exciting as the old setup though. What do you think?

Bahnbetriebswerke2.jpg
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline applor  
#13 Posted : 20 April 2016 23:07:37(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
PJ - thanks for sharing the photos, excellent detail!

I wonder though why you used sand instead of ash? Is that intentional?
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline PJMärklin  
#14 Posted : 21 April 2016 04:37:33(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
PJ - thanks for sharing the photos, excellent detail!

I wonder though why you used sand instead of ash? Is that intentional?




Hello again Eric,


The material in the ash pit is certified ash that came in a small bag with the Faller kit. Not being aware of any NEM standard for ash Wink I used it.



UserPostedImage



a bit further down the steam service yard tracks :



UserPostedImage



Sand (and real sand at that) does make an appearance. BigGrin



UserPostedImage



UserPostedImage



UserPostedImage





Regards,

PJ
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Offline applor  
#15 Posted : 21 April 2016 04:58:55(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
PJ that is interesting I have never seen real ash look like that before.

Regardless your detail is great and everything else looks realistic and is great to see the Faller 120149 kit in use.

modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline BrandonVA  
#16 Posted : 21 April 2016 20:07:24(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post


Enough space for what Brandon? Those locations circled with the wide radius turnouts are freight sidings so the 57mm spacing is of no concern.
There is nothing wrong with 57mm spacing except that a lot of model kits come designed for 64.6mm spacing.
The areas requiring the 64.6mm spacing for the coaling station and ash pits are standard turnouts so that is all correct.

I tried changed things around so that the turntable entry has no interruptions, though it did mean extending the layout to the wall which means another access hole above.
While it could work it does not look as fun/exciting as the old setup though. What do you think?



If you don't intend to put anything between those tracks you should be fine. I wasn't sure if you planned water filling, etc. Are the stubs at the end of the passing area long enough for bigger locomotives?

I would always go for fun/exciting :)

-Brandon
Offline applor  
#17 Posted : 22 April 2016 06:21:05(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I had another go with a straight through entry to the turntable and I am much happier with this design.

A shunting lok stand-by siding
B freight shunting bays
C freight loading bays
D dual ash pit bays with gantry crane and water spouts (faller 120149)
E coaling station will sit over the upper 2 tracks and the lower track (siding) will have the crane and coal bunker below it
F siding for delivery of coal and for collection of ash/slag.
G 3 bay lok service shed with an inspection pit

Thoughts?

Bahnbetriebswerke3.jpg
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline Tom Jessop  
#18 Posted : 22 April 2016 12:25:48(UTC)
Tom Jessop

Australia   
Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 800
Location: Newcastle NSW Australia


Could track F be also connected to the TT in line with the single dead road opposite . I am thinking if you have a breakdown crane /train it could be placed on the single road for storage . I like the idea of F roads but going on Ozzy practice which followed UK practice most repairs would be carried out in the roundhouse where drop pits for wheel changes were fitted along with other major repairs from the smallest to the semi large . The only major stuff not done in roundhouses would be things like boiler changes which would be sent to a central workshop . Is F road going to be at a higher level than the 2 roads into the TT for easy coal delivery or ash removal , if so disregard the previous

I'm not sure why you need a double slip on the 2 B roads, this could be handled by using a single point with only 1 dead end there .

I am not fully conversant with German loco service layouts so please take these ideas from a ozzies thought of what I know about down here being converted to the European idea .

Cheers Tom in Oz
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Offline BrandonVA  
#19 Posted : 22 April 2016 15:07:45(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Eric,

A couple of items from an old track planning book for inspiration. I think things are looking very good.

Will you have a diesel fueling area? I see you're modeling 1954, so there wouldn't be too many diesels, but some like V36, V80 and V188 would have been around if you're interested.

dampfbetriebswerk2.JPG
dampfbetriebswerk1.JPG

-Brandon
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Offline applor  
#20 Posted : 25 April 2016 07:22:53(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Hi guys, sorry for the late replay - I have been away for the long weekend.

Tom,

I definitely prefer to keep track F as a siding only. You are correct about the B roads, I will remove the double slip.
From what I have read, locomotives were taken to a separate repair shed rather than being repaired in the roundhouse - the roundhouse was used for stabling rather than repairs.

I don't know if this is correct just for Germany or whether I have miss-understood...


Brandon,

Excellent find for those track plans! They have been valuable and hopefully I can incorporate some of those elements into my design.

As for the diesel fuelling area - I had thought maybe only some tanks. My only diesels are the VT8.5 (39080) and the pre-production V200 002 (Roco 69931).
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline applor  
#21 Posted : 26 April 2016 03:27:09(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
A few more tweaks.

I have added an extra bi-directional road that would mainly be used for loks exiting the roundhouse though will also have a diesel refuelling system as well.

I wonder, with the Faller 120149 kit that has 2x172mm plates whether they could be used separately for the two tracks, rather than end to end to make the long 344mm?

I feel the 344mm ash pit is too long and takes too much room, especially if I am having a dual pit and having 2x 172mm would work better.

Looking at pictures of the kit, I would think this is possible - perhaps you can confirm for me PJ?

Otherwise the plan still does work with the 344mm length, though the coaling and sanding towers are a bit of a squeeze...


edit: I also believe I have them around the wrong way - normally coal first, then ash/water and finally sand, so I will swap over my ash pits and coaling area.


Bahnbetriebswerke4.jpg
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline BrandonVA  
#22 Posted : 26 April 2016 17:37:07(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post

I wonder, with the Faller 120149 kit that has 2x172mm plates whether they could be used separately for the two tracks, rather than end to end to make the long 344mm?

I feel the 344mm ash pit is too long and takes too much room, especially if I am having a dual pit and having 2x 172mm would work better.


I think this looks like a lot of fun.

Regarding the Faller ash pit; maybe the directions can you decide if you can separate it the way you want to?

A PDF of the directions can be downloaded:

http://www.faller.de/App/WebObjects/XSeMIPS.woa/cms/page/pid.14.17.89/agid.1127.1200.1228/atid.45/lg.en/ecm.at/Ausschlackanlage-mit-Bockkran.html

-Brandon
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Offline Tom Jessop  
#23 Posted : 26 April 2016 23:36:07(UTC)
Tom Jessop

Australia   
Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 800
Location: Newcastle NSW Australia


Yes I like it , the extra road to the TT is essential & well placed . The design now covers all the requirements . Well done .


Cheers Tom in Oz
Offline applor  
#24 Posted : 26 April 2016 23:48:24(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Reading through the instructions I do not think there should be any problems.
The only possible difference is that the pits will have stairs only at one end but I am fine with that.

Excellent.

edit: thanks Tom! Looks like I am pretty close to locking the design in.

Final draft:

A shunting lok stand-by siding
B freight shunting bays
C freight loading bays
D dual ash pit bays with gantry crane and water spouts (faller 120149)
E coaling station (marklin 76511) the lower siding will have the crane and coal bunker below it
F siding for delivery of coal and for collection of ash/slag.
G 3 bay lok service shed with an inspection pit
H compressor house with pipe blast siding (FALLER 120139)
K return track and diesel refuelling
L emergency siding

edit: I forgot to label the sanding tower but that will be just past the ash pits near the turntable there.

There will of course be a number of other buildings in the railyard, such as freight sheds next to C as well as a water tower, pumping house, crew quarters and such.

Bahnbetriebswerke5.jpg
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline Thewolf  
#25 Posted : 27 April 2016 00:36:30(UTC)
Thewolf

Canada   
Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 2,035
Location: Saint Mathias dur Richelieu-Canada
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Reading through the instructions I do not think there should be any problems.
The only possible difference is that the pits will have stairs only at one end but I am fine with that.

Excellent.

edit: thanks Tom! Looks like I am pretty close to locking the design in.

Final draft:

A shunting lok stand-by siding
B freight shunting bays
C freight loading bays
D dual ash pit bays with gantry crane and water spouts (faller 120149)
E coaling station (marklin 76511) the lower siding will have the crane and coal bunker below it
F siding for delivery of coal and for collection of ash/slag.
G 3 bay lok service shed with an inspection pit
H compressor house with pipe blast siding (FALLER 120139)
K return track and diesel refuelling
L emergency siding

edit: I forgot to label the sanding tower but that will be just past the ash pits near the turntable there.

There will of course be a number of other buildings in the railyard, such as freight sheds next to C as well as a water tower, pumping house, crew quarters and such.

Bahnbetriebswerke5.jpg


Hi Eric

Very impressive.... as the whole layoutThumpUp ThumpUp

Thewolf

Project The Richelieu Valley Railway-CS2-Track C- Itrain-Digital
Offline applor  
#26 Posted : 27 April 2016 01:05:33(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I decided to draw in structures to give a clearer idea:

Bahnbetriebswerke5a.jpg
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#27 Posted : 27 April 2016 02:10:36(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post


Bahnbetriebswerke.jpg



I see no reason to place turnouts on a single track coming off a turntable (as you have going to the triple loco shed).

Why not just run each track to the turntable? (Not only would it be more prototypical but also much cheaper than buying two turnouts and switching motors and k83 posrt to drive them...
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline applor  
#28 Posted : 27 April 2016 05:55:02(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Dale,

You accidentally posted in reply to my original track plan and not the latest but I think you realise this - since you have also replied in 'My Layout' thread.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline Brakeman  
#29 Posted : 05 May 2016 07:13:39(UTC)
Brakeman

United States   
Joined: 14/04/2006(UTC)
Posts: 298
Location: Southern California
Great we have here someone who has done this is full scale!

How do you return loco to the roundhouse after dumping the ashes and slag from the firebox? Is there still enough pressure in the boiler to go?
I used also Vollmer 5741 lift and Faller B-136 pit for my depot. Didn't realize I could also have a water crane in the other side of the pit.

Thanks,
Juha


Slag pit - Copy.jpgvollmer 5741 faller B-136 - Copy.jpg

Originally Posted by: Tom Jessop Go to Quoted Post


Eric ,

From what I have seen & worked on as a loco driver down here in Newcastle ,all ash pits are on a thru road & never on a siding . If on a siding it means a double movement in & out .Usually the ash pit is placed before the coal stage along with the water crane , then the coal stage then on to the turntable for turning into the shed or placed on a ready road for early departure , sometimes a water crane may be also placed on the departure roads for that last top up .


Cheers Tom in Oz

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Offline applor  
#30 Posted : 05 May 2016 07:23:48(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Thanks for sharing your depot! I like the ash pit with hoist.

I have placed the order for my ash pit, as discussed I will be using the Faller 120149 but half length dual track.

I also ordered my coaling bunker, 3 inspection pits, sanding tower with bunker and a new lok:)

My current debate is whether I want to install pits inside the roundhouse or not...
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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