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Offline Karl Audenaerde  
#1 Posted : 05 April 2016 15:30:56(UTC)
Karl Audenaerde

United States   
Joined: 17/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: MASSACHUSETTS, FALMOUTH
I can't be the only one who is expanding a layout and installing the new 764xx signals. Somewhere old and new meet and a new home signal will have an old distant signal, and vice versa. If the home signal is preceded by a braking module (72441), then the braking module's signal output can be used to control the distant signal. If there is no braking module, I have no solution.
The problem is more complex in the opposite case: a distant signal on the same mast as a new home signal (actually, two of them, but let's keep it simple for starters) that has to reflect the aspect of the next older-type home signal. I have no clue...
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Offline Goofy  
#2 Posted : 06 April 2016 19:17:33(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Distance signal don´t have stop control.
It only simulate switching lighting by off main signal.
To use brake modul,just simple follow manual which do follow with the main signal.
The PCB which are an decoder too,do have connection by use both distance signal and the brake modul.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Karl Audenaerde  
#3 Posted : 06 April 2016 19:27:26(UTC)
Karl Audenaerde

United States   
Joined: 17/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: MASSACHUSETTS, FALMOUTH
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Distance signal don´t have stop control.
It only simulate switching lighting by off main signal.
To use brake module,just simple follow manual which do follow with the main signal.
The PCB which are an decoder too,do have connection by use both distance signal and the brake module.


I'm afraid I wasn't clear enough - the functioning of the brake module has nothing to do with the problem. It offers a crutch when you want an old distant signal to follow a new main signal.
To boil it down to the basic problem: how to have a new distant signal (mounted on the same mast as a new main signal) follow the aspect of an old main signal. No brake module in this scenario.
Offline DaleSchultz  
#4 Posted : 07 April 2016 02:31:03(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
it is not a simple matter at all.

German signalling rules state that the distance signal on the same mast as another main signal have to be OFF if the main signal is on Hp0 (red). So only when the main signal on the same mast is on Hp1 or Hp2 should the distance signal indicate Vr0/1/2 of the next signal.

Then there is the issue of there being more than one possible main signal that the distance signal is reporting if there is a turnout between the distant signal and its main signal.
Then again there is also an additional issue if there is more than one possible distant signal for any given main signal.

Signals do not control trains. They also do not signal that a train should go. i.e. exit signals are often green when a train enters a station, and it then stops at the platform, and departs when the schedule says it should depart.

In order to simulate prototypical operations, signals should be cosmetic. i.e. dont get them mixed up in braking modules and analog control systems if you are trying to run a digital system.

But back to your question, why not simply wire your distant signal to the main signal it is serving? (And switch it off if the signal on the same mast is red.)

I am about 3.5 hours drive north of you in Maine, perhaps you should come and visit...
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline clapcott  
#5 Posted : 07 April 2016 08:39:55(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Karl Audenaerde Go to Quoted Post
If the home signal is preceded by a braking module (72441), then the braking module's signal output can be used to control the distant signal. If there is no braking module, I have no solution.

You do not say what "old" means, I will start by presuming it is the 763xx units.

New 7649x Home preceded by Old 76383 Distance
This would only occur if you were actually replacing an old home signal with a new one.
In this case you might as well replace the distance signal.

If the reason for the Home signal replacement is physical damage , then the decoder can still remain in use for the 76383 by itself

New 7649x Home preceded by Old 76395//7 mast with a Distance
The distance signal address on the 76395/7 can be set to the same address as the Home signal

Old 7639x Home preceded by New 76480/1
You would need a new decoder for the 76480/1
Note: there is no reason the decoder that comes with a 7649x signal could not be available separately - there is just no product number for it.

Old 7639x Home preceded by New 76495/6/7
The Distance Mast Head may have an address assigned to match the Home signal address - see CVs 55/56

In all cases if you have a divergent line and you wish the distance signal to reflect the state of more than one Home signal (dependent on the route in operation) then you would assign a unique address to the Distance signal and use the route sequence to ensure it match the attendant home signal



Peter
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#6 Posted : 07 April 2016 10:21:50(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
In order to simulate prototypical operations, signals should be cosmetic. i.e. dont get them mixed up in braking modules and analog control systems if you are trying to run a digital system.


Why not??

Yes, I know that you use software control to stop your trains at a signal but I can't see how different that is to using a dead section or braking module to stop a train - your computer control is simply replacing the dead section or braking module, but in effect they achieve the same thing.

In real life, the locomotive engineer is the person responsible for stopping the train but in a model railway there needs to be some other mechanism to do this - whether that is software or a dead section or braking module is a moot point. All are valid methods and are up to the personal preference of the model railroader.

At the end of the day, everything about a model railroad is a compromise, otherwise we would have 10 or 20 metres between our home and distant signals, something impractical even on the largest model railroads.
Offline xxup  
#7 Posted : 07 April 2016 10:39:38(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
The difference with computer control is that you can stop a train at a station with a green signal (i.e. there are no trains on the next block).. This is not possible by just using braking sections and signals. This is one of the reasons why correctly configured computer control delivers much more realistic railway operation. In a computer controlled layout the computer sets the signal status based on rules (i.e. the next block is occupied etc).. The signal does not control the layout.

As you say, model railway operation is a compromise. The more thought, effort and technology that you throw at it the more realistic it becomes..
Adrian
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Australia flag by abFlags.com
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#8 Posted : 07 April 2016 11:18:23(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
I realise Dale was talking about trains stopping on a green signal at a station.

Personally, I would rather have the safety factor of knowing that a train is going to stop on a red signal in a dead spot rather than worrying about whether the signal is red or green when the train stops and getting things to work as in real life (I have observed trains stopping at a station on a green signal at the station close by my work when I was sitting waiting for a train) - I'm operating Bigdaddy's Bahn, not the Union Pacific Railroad!

That's my personal preference for my model railway and I realise Dale's is different and I have no problem with that. Each to their own.
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Offline clapcott  
#9 Posted : 08 April 2016 01:48:42(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
I do not think that this thread was started with any reference to Dead sections, and the Braking module reference was purely as a tool , using the signal output as a suggested workaround.

If anything the issue revolves around Distance signals and their "inter-generational" association, so there is no need to bring up the stopping configuration at all.

The comment about divergent lines is valid in context, however Marklin have never offered a turnkey solution for this and you have always needed a separate bespoke control lead for that (BlueBox or Decoder).
Peter
Offline Karl Audenaerde  
#10 Posted : 08 April 2016 12:29:14(UTC)
Karl Audenaerde

United States   
Joined: 17/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: MASSACHUSETTS, FALMOUTH
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
it is not a simple matter at all.

German signalling rules state that the distance signal on the same mast as another main signal have to be OFF if the main signal is on Hp0 (red). So only when the main signal on the same mast is on Hp1 or Hp2 should the distance signal indicate Vr0/1/2 of the next signal.

Then there is the issue of there being more than one possible main signal that the distance signal is reporting if there is a turnout between the distant signal and its main signal.
Then again there is also an additional issue if there is more than one possible distant signal for any given main signal.

Signals do not control trains. They also do not signal that a train should go. i.e. exit signals are often green when a train enters a station, and it then stops at the platform, and departs when the schedule says it should depart.

In order to simulate prototypical operations, signals should be cosmetic. i.e. dont get them mixed up in braking modules and analog control systems if you are trying to run a digital system.

But back to your question, why not simply wire your distant signal to the main signal it is serving? (And switch it off if the signal on the same mast is red.)

I am about 3.5 hours drive north of you in Maine, perhaps you should come and visit...


I may take you up on your invitation, and make the trek up north in May/June.
Your suggestion to simply wire them together sounds intriguing enough. But how do you wire the distant signal of a 76796 to a 7239? And to make things worse, there actually are 2 76496's used as exit signals in a 4-track station...
Offline Karl Audenaerde  
#11 Posted : 08 April 2016 12:36:09(UTC)
Karl Audenaerde

United States   
Joined: 17/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 30
Location: MASSACHUSETTS, FALMOUTH
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Karl Audenaerde Go to Quoted Post
If the home signal is preceded by a braking module (72441), then the braking module's signal output can be used to control the distant signal. If there is no braking module, I have no solution.

You do not say what "old" means, I will start by presuming it is the 763xx units.

New 7649x Home preceded by Old 76383 Distance
This would only occur if you were actually replacing an old home signal with a new one.
In this case you might as well replace the distance signal.

If the reason for the Home signal replacement is physical damage , then the decoder can still remain in use for the 76383 by itself

New 7649x Home preceded by Old 76395//7 mast with a Distance
The distance signal address on the 76395/7 can be set to the same address as the Home signal

Old 7639x Home preceded by New 76480/1
You would need a new decoder for the 76480/1
Note: there is no reason the decoder that comes with a 7649x signal could not be available separately - there is just no product number for it.

Old 7639x Home preceded by New 76495/6/7
The Distance Mast Head may have an address assigned to match the Home signal address - see CVs 55/56

In all cases if you have a divergent line and you wish the distance signal to reflect the state of more than one Home signal (dependent on the route in operation) then you would assign a unique address to the Distance signal and use the route sequence to ensure it match the attendant home signal




This is definitely going to help in a later stage when I get the never-used 763xx's out of their box. But here we're talking REALLY OLD: we're dealing with a 7239! There are 2 76496's serving as exit-signals in a 4-track station, so their distant signals BOTH should reflect the aspect of the first old signal (the 7239) in the old part of the layout.
Offline DaleSchultz  
#12 Posted : 08 April 2016 17:59:09(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I think I would start with drawing up a table of all the possible combinations you need.

Eg

Main signal A______Main Signal B___Distant signal C___Distant Signal D__Turnout E____Turnout F

_____Hp1_______________Hp0_____________Vr1_______________Vr0____________Green_________Red
_____Hp0_______________Hp1_____________Vr0_______________Vr1____________Green_________Green

(Underscores are an attempt at making the columns line up)

Not sure if you are using a digital system to set the turnout and signals, and if you are, what the capabilities of that system is.
You could perhaps create a 'setting' for each unique row in your table.

If one is trying to do this with analog control I bet it could get very complicated (with perhaps multiple relays in action), but I have never sat down to work out how to do it. It must be possible because they did it in real life before digital computers.



Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline grnwtrs  
#13 Posted : 08 April 2016 19:26:41(UTC)
grnwtrs

United States   
Joined: 18/06/2005(UTC)
Posts: 669
Location: El Sobrante, California
Great discussion all!

Keep it up.

best regards,
gene
Offline DaleSchultz  
#14 Posted : 27 April 2016 03:12:21(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
In order to simulate prototypical operations, signals should be cosmetic. i.e. dont get them mixed up in braking modules and analog control systems if you are trying to run a digital system.


Why not??

Yes, I know that you use software control to stop your trains at a signal but I can't see how different that is to using a dead section or braking module to stop a train - your computer control is simply replacing the dead section or braking module, but in effect they achieve the same thing.


No they don't achieve the same thing. I can think of numerous differences:
  • Braking modules will stop the train only if the signal is red.
    Braking module will stop a train running in the other direction.
    Braking module is an analog control, so trying to mix digital AND analog control leads to additional complexity.
    Braking module prevents things like smoke units being operated
    Braking module assumes the tractive power pickup is at the leading edge of the train, so pull-pull operations would fail.
    Braking module costs you more money that is simply not needed.
    Braking modules do not work with older decoders.


The only time they are the 'same' is when the software stops a train in front of a red signal for a train with a loco (with new decoder) at the head and no functions are desired.

If you watch German train cab videos you will see that very often the exit signal in a station is already green when the train comes in and stops. Because the the signal only indicates that the track ahead may be entered. It does not mean the train must go. The train driver is governed by his 'Buchfahrplan' not the signals (unless they are red).

Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post

In real life, the locomotive engineer is the person responsible for stopping the train but in a model railway there needs to be some other mechanism to do this - whether that is software or a dead section or braking module is a moot point.


Not by a long chalk. See above.

Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post

All are valid methods and are up to the personal preference of the model railroader.


Well sure, but when someone is looking for advice, I like to prevent them from falling in an expensive trap that results in diminished functionality at additional cost.

Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post

At the end of the day, everything about a model railroad is a compromise, otherwise we would have 10 or 20 metres between our home and distant signals, something impractical even on the largest model railroads.


No, not everything has to be a compromise, especially when simpler and cheaper solutions are present. Just because we have to compromise on space does not mean we have to buy braking modules.



Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 27 April 2016 08:20:45(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
Braking module will stop a train running in the other direction.
Not with two-rail track and ABC braking. (Sorry for this heresy on a Märklin forum).
With some restrictions this would also work for three-rail layouts.

I think I had to replace 90+% of my decoders to take advantage of ABC braking, but for a layout with limited rolling stock it could be an alternative.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Jay  
#16 Posted : 27 April 2016 17:33:03(UTC)
Jay

South Africa   
Joined: 01/05/2010(UTC)
Posts: 303
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
But Tom why even bother with braking modules if as Dale says we do not need them for computer control.
I am following this topic with intense interest and would like to learn from it but I am such a greenhorn that I don't even follow
Dale's signalling drawing above. Please forgive me if I've hijacked the thread but what is hp1 and hp0. Also vr1 and vr0.
This topic is sure to generate a lot of interest with many forum members. Thanks to all for their input.
Jay
Offline H0  
#17 Posted : 27 April 2016 18:27:03(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Jay Go to Quoted Post
But Tom why even bother with braking modules if as Dale says we do not need them for computer control.
Not everybody wants computer control.
Braking modules also work when you switch signals manually.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Jay
Offline kiwiAlan  
#18 Posted : 27 April 2016 18:52:48(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Jay Go to Quoted Post
Please forgive me if I've hijacked the thread but what is hp1 and hp0. Also vr1 and vr0.
This topic is sure to generate a lot of interest with many forum members. Thanks to all for their input.
Jay


They are all signal aspects. IIRC HP0 is red, HP1 is green, and the VR are the corresponding distant signal aspects.

For full information get the signalling information documents from the German Railway Society (site seems to be down when I tried to reach it just now). They will give you a very full description in English of the way German signalling systems are set up including signal and point numbering in diagram boards and at the signals themselves. The booklets are a little expensive, but they are a great resource.

There are other websites around that give basic information, and I am sure someone will point you at one of those as well.
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Jay
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