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Offline morsing  
#1 Posted : 31 March 2016 23:29:50(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 586
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Hi,

I'm struggling to find the difference between the 42814 and 42815, only thing I have found is that one is from the '70s possibly and the other is from 1990. There may also be a colour difference?

So would a 42815 not match a 42814 or 42816 set?

Thanks
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline Markus Schild  
#2 Posted : 01 April 2016 10:38:05(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Wurttemberg
Hi,

42814 are brown, while 42815 and 42816 have a red livery. 42816 is just 42815 with new numbers.

The real DSB never had this type of UIC-cars. All three sets are an invention of Märklin.

Regards

Markus
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Offline RayF  
#3 Posted : 01 April 2016 11:07:59(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
They're not quite right, but I think they are a reasonable representation of the coaches in this picture:

UserPostedImage
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Markus Schild  
#4 Posted : 01 April 2016 11:18:23(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Wurttemberg
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
They're not quite right, but I think they are a reasonable representation of the coaches in this picture:



Hi Ray,

We can discuss what's reasonable. The Märklin - cars have just the wrong length ( the DSB-cars were just ~24m due to the needs of the railway-ferrys), wrong doors, the wrong roof and a wrong size of the windows (toilet). But the right number of axles. In the 1960/70s Märklin made a real model of the Danish type: 4045. For me the 42814ff are just a caricature of the DSB-cars.

Regards

Markus
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Offline RayF  
#5 Posted : 01 April 2016 11:20:54(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Markus Schild Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
They're not quite right, but I think they are a reasonable representation of the coaches in this picture:



Hi Ray,

We can discuss what's reasonable. The Märklin - cars have just the wrong length ( the DSB-cars were just ~24m due to the needs of the railway-ferrys), wrong doors, the wrong roof and a wrong size of the windows (toilet). But the right number of axles. In the 1960/70s Märklin made a real model of the Danish type: 4045.

Regards

Markus



So no different then to the similarity with UIC coaches! BigGrin
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline morsing  
#6 Posted : 01 April 2016 23:06:01(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 586
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
So if I bought a 42816 set, the colour wouldn't match my 42814, is that right?

I'm sorry but I am not into counting windows and things sticking out of roofs. Everytime people start discussing this, I lose a little bit more interest in my hobby :-( I've given up on a Danish forum already because it always ends up in arguments over the size of window frame, and no matter what you wan't to buy it "wrong".

I just want to have fun :-)
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by morsing
Offline Markus Schild  
#7 Posted : 02 April 2016 06:19:56(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Wurttemberg
Hi,

I'm sorry, I didn't want to displease anybody. But in this special case I miss respect by Märklin. When the customer was worth enough to get a right model in 1966, why not ~50 years later? Creating European models with the spray-gun was a policy of LIMA and PIKO from the 1960s. But not by MÄRKLIN.

Also the DSB was not able to respray all their cars in one day. So you find pictures of the old (brown) and new (red) livery in one train in the early 1970s.

Regards

Markus
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Offline RayF  
#8 Posted : 02 April 2016 08:55:35(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Markus Schild Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

I'm sorry, I didn't want to displease anybody. But in this special case I miss respect by Märklin. When the customer was worth enough to get a right model in 1966, why not ~50 years later? Creating European models with the spray-gun was a policy of LIMA and PIKO from the 1960s. But not by MÄRKLIN.

Also the DSB was not able to respray all their cars in one day. So you find pictures of the old (brown) and new (red) livery in one train in the early 1970s.

Regards

Markus


Hi Markus,

No need to apologise. Everyone has their special interests and also areas where they are not so interested and don't mind compromises.

There are several members of this forum who insist on absolute accuracy on their coaches, and there are also others, like me, for whom the model just needs to look about right and give the right general impression.

For me, coaches traditionally have been compromised because their extreme length has made them difficult to model over the years, especially for those who only have a small layout. The compromises have usually been in length and number of windows, but there are also differences in widths and heights. Because of this latitude manufacturers have tended to extend the compromise as a cheap way of offering coaches in different liveries using types that never carried them in reality. I find this is a convenient way of modelling different trains without going to the expense of custom made models from specialist manufacturers.

Why did Marklin offer a more accurate model in the 1960s? This is a difficult question, because the models of the time were far from accurate on the whole. Maybe there was someone on the Marklin design team at that time who had a special interest in DSB trains?

Perhaps there will be a more accurate model of these coaches from Marklin in the future, but I'm sure they'll have their marketing department looking at the demand for such models before committing to a new tooling.

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by RayF
Offline Markus Schild  
#9 Posted : 02 April 2016 09:18:22(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Wurttemberg
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post


There are several members of this forum who insist on absolute accuracy on their coaches, and there are also others, like me, for whom the model just needs to look about right and give the right general impression.




Hi Ray,

The impression, that's the point. And that's what I'm missing. I visited Denmark very frequent from the 1970s and also used the DSB often in holidays. Remembering the prototype I'm lost as a customer for these cars.
Usually I'm not the one that always asks for more details, longer cars or the exactness of every millimetre. I like the impressive style of model-railways Märklin made in the 1960s. I'm still satisfied with models from the 1970s. But in this case I really miss the impression. I just can see resprayed German cars. But that's my problem.

Regards

Markus
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Offline morsing  
#10 Posted : 05 April 2016 09:31:24(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 586
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Originally Posted by: Markus Schild Go to Quoted Post


Hi Ray,

The impression, that's the point. And that's what I'm missing. I visited Denmark very frequent from the 1970s and also used the DSB often in holidays. Remembering the prototype I'm lost as a customer for these cars.
Usually I'm not the one that always asks for more details, longer cars or the exactness of every millimetre. I like the impressive style of model-railways Märklin made in the 1960s. I'm still satisfied with models from the 1970s. But in this case I really miss the impression. I just can see resprayed German cars. But that's my problem.

Regards

Markus


Hi,

I used the DSB coaches from the mid-70s till the mid-90s, and I wouldn't have a clue how many windows they have and what's on the roof...

And I still can't tell the difference in colour between the 814 and 815 set, at least not in photos. My 814 set looks red to me, not brown.

-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by morsing
Offline Markus Schild  
#11 Posted : 05 April 2016 10:09:07(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Wurttemberg
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post
. My 814 set looks red to me, not brown.



Hi,

Yes, and that's right. I mismatched the numbers above.

Maybe these pictures help to compare the colors:

http://maerklin.scanditr...814_2Schnellzugwagen.jpg

http://maerklin.scanditr...815_2Schnellzugwagen.jpg

Regards

Markus

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Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#12 Posted : 05 April 2016 10:53:08(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
I am not surprised you are having this problem. I had a look and it can be quite daunting. Marklin.com seems to describe the three sets as basic red. 15 and 16 are Era IV while 14 is Era V. I like DSB but I don't follow their colour schemes. After looking at several pictures I would say yes they are all red but the 14 is almost pure red while 15 and 16 are more of a wine red or red-brownish if you like. I don't think they'll match your 14. As Markus indicated during transition times is not unusual to see colour schemes mixed in many railways but depends on what you like.
Offline MaerklinLife  
#13 Posted : 05 April 2016 14:08:03(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
There are several correct versions of these coaches available from Heljan. The market is flooded with them and they are cheap. There is no real need for Märklin to build yet another version. Truly, there should be need to build incorrect versions either, but they obviously sell out each time, so I can't really blame Märklin for doing it the way they do.

Denmark is a small market compared to others, so too many versions of the same coach would not be profitable.
Offline Mark_1602  
#14 Posted : 05 April 2016 23:07:55(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post


Why did Marklin offer a more accurate model in the 1960s? This is a difficult question, because the models of the time were far from accurate on the whole. Maybe there was someone on the Marklin design team at that time who had a special interest in DSB trains?

Perhaps there will be a more accurate model of these coaches from Marklin in the future, but I'm sure they'll have their marketing department looking at the demand for such models before committing to a new tooling.



Hi all,

That's an intriguing question. The 4045 is not the only model from the 1960s which is more accurate than its present-day version. For example, the new CFL 39673 doesn't really look like the era III class 1600 diesel that it is meant to represent according to Märklin; I've seen colour pictures from the late 1950s that prove it. The old 3063, however, almost looks as the late era III prototype did after the third headlight had been added in the late 1960s, except that it is a little too short and that the buffers should be rectangular, not round.

From the late 1950s until about 1970, Märklin made an attempt to conquer export markets and designed some pretty good models, but in the 1970s, they simplified things to cut costs and lower prices; quality control tags disappeared after 1972, on some new steam locomotives only one axle was powered, and many models from the 1960s were simply reissued with new liveries. As a result, they sold more models trains than ever before throughout the seventies and early eighties.

What can we realistically expect now? Not too much, I would say, because a whole decade of mismanagement before the insolvency followed by five years of costly but badly needed investment into Märklin's factories have resulted in high debts that still need to be paid off. Those DSB coach sets are not accurate, but plausible enough for most Märklin customers and rather inexpensive as compared to the authentic scale models produced by specialist manufacturers. New tooling DSB cars wouldn't be profitable for Märklin, so they might simply resell other manufacturer's cars instead, as the example of the Hobbytrade beer cars sold by Märklin shows. Demand for Märklin export models (except for Swiss ones) is really low right now, so additional investment wouldn't pay off.

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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