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Offline river6109  
#1 Posted : 24 March 2016 11:59:29(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Hi, I've just made a quick calculation what you would need for a single track with a braking section and the cost ionvolved,

this includes: 2 x switching tracks = @ Euro 14.00 = Euro 28.00, 1 x main /signal = Euro 80.00, 1 x braking module = Euro 80.00, 2 x solenoid motors @ Euro 23.00 = Euro 46.00

this is a total amount of Euro 224.00, in my case (my layout) this would amount to Euro 5376.00 minimum it is calculated by 3 x 8 tracks (this covers just the station area)

including a block system you can add another Euro 2600.00 which amount to approx. Euro 8000.00

my home made system on a single track is approx. A$ 80.00 (approx. Euro 51.00) including the same parts needed, a saving of Euro 173.00 per track.

now you can see why I build my own braking modules, reflective optocouplers, signal fader modules, cheaper signals, reliable solenoids (servo motors)

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline Danlake  
#2 Posted : 24 March 2016 19:39:25(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,571
That's was actually one reason why I quickly resorted to full digitale with PC control, when I figured out the cost involved in making prototypical braking section...

Electronically speaking I never understood why a K84 decoder is so much more expensive than a K83 decoder.

But sounds like you found a good alternative John, considering your tracks are already laid and ballasted.

Brgds Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
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Offline Thewolf  
#3 Posted : 25 March 2016 13:04:05(UTC)
Thewolf

Canada   
Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 2,035
Location: Saint Mathias dur Richelieu-Canada
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Hi, I've just made a quick calculation what you would need for a single track with a braking section and the cost ionvolved,

this includes: 2 x switching tracks = @ Euro 14.00 = Euro 28.00, 1 x main /signal = Euro 80.00, 1 x braking module = Euro 80.00, 2 x solenoid motors @ Euro 23.00 = Euro 46.00

this is a total amount of Euro 224.00, in my case (my layout) this would amount to Euro 5376.00 minimum it is calculated by 3 x 8 tracks (this covers just the station area)

including a block system you can add another Euro 2600.00 which amount to approx. Euro 8000.00

my home made system on a single track is approx. A$ 80.00 (approx. Euro 51.00) including the same parts needed, a saving of Euro 173.00 per track.

now you can see why I build my own braking modules, reflective optocouplers, signal fader modules, cheaper signals, reliable solenoids (servo motors)

John


Hi John and everybody.

Interesting what you say John but personally I solved all this by the use of Itrain which makes absolutely everything.

For example the signals are only of the representation and have no incidence on the progress of the layout.

Other example: I absolutely need nothing for the slowing down, the braking, the stop and the departure in hidden station. Itrain controls the whole

All which I need: a system of rétrosignalisation (in french) (reed contacts or contacts rails or cut rails, S88) ...and kms of wires BigGrin

Cost: 139 Euros ( standard version)

Thewolf

Project The Richelieu Valley Railway-CS2-Track C- Itrain-Digital
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Offline river6109  
#4 Posted : 27 March 2016 03:10:46(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Serge, this sounds exiting and good on you, looks like you have the experience and knowledge to run your trains via computer and one day I may follow your footsteps.
my journey to solve the unreliable switching tracks and turnout solenoids have been achieved without using any computer knowledge and I'm sure what you describe can't be so difficult to do. I'm a novice when it comes to computers, most the things in life I have taught myself to understand various applications, some I have copied because of the lack of knowledge, the best way to explain would be, I was able to fix or repair cars but now everything is computerized this has become more or less impossible and in my age there is no need for it anymore.

I've got basic computer skills and I'm sure if I would put my mind to it I could conquer your ability to run trains via computer, I've noticed it before the money one could save without having to buy all these , gadgets/electronic modules etc etc. and in the end getting a much better result and I'm sure there are more options available to you, having said this my layout was never set up for computer control and not having gone deeper into the application I really don't know what needs to be done to go this step further as all my tracks are solidly bedded in , this does not mean I can't access the middle rail if needed where ever needed to be connected.
there are other obstacles as well, although I have a telephone line connection in the garage, I haven't connected it to anything and suppose you don't need a telephone connection to utilize a computer program.
when the garage is extended and we are able to extend the current missing modules we can finally run trains again for the first time in 20 years, so this will be a milestone in itself, we will have more room to have monitors installed or indeed when the time is right try to eventually run the trains via computer control, in meantime when all trains are successfully operate without a hitch (can't see this going to happen = WISHFUL THINKING), all the modules are updated e.g. overhead system, scenery, the existing automatic train control system with reflective optocouplers and if I'm not loosing my memory by than I may consider it.

You or I may start a topic: who runs trains via computer and who is contemplating to do so in the future

John

P.S. a friend of mine in Berlin has just completed an electronic circuit board to operate a railway crossing prototypical or as close as possible.

railway crossing.gif
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline Thewolf  
#5 Posted : 28 March 2016 15:03:06(UTC)
Thewolf

Canada   
Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 2,035
Location: Saint Mathias dur Richelieu-Canada
Hello John Cool

I read with a lot of attention your comment. When I see on your videos the traffic of your trains, I say myself: this guy is strong, very strong.

The result which you obtain with your method is identical to the one that we obtain with a software and congratulations for your work.

I can tell you that the use of the PC with Itrain is simple, very simple.

Itrain does not ask for a new pc. I know a guy who uses Itrain with a pc dating 2000 without internet. He downloads on his computer of office and transfers the files Itrain on his pc of train

I made the same thing. I configured Itrain on my desktop pc, I transferred all the files on my laptop with an USB key. My laptop have no internet. No nee, only 2 cables : a RJ45 and a hdmi for the 48 '' TV.

Once again, ThumpUp ThumpUp for your work

Have a nice day

Thewolf
Project The Richelieu Valley Railway-CS2-Track C- Itrain-Digital
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#6 Posted : 27 April 2016 03:20:11(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
if you are running your layout digitally then all you need is sensor points (s88) and you do not need any braking modules. Its is even cheaper to not have home made ones.

My advice to anyone using digital is:

Digital control is much more powerful and capable of doing much more than what can be done with analog control. If you are to use digital layout control you should dispense with analog control elements.

So called braking modules are analog devices and are redundant in a digital system. Don't waste money and effort installing them. Put the effort and money into s88 detection points rather. Any two s88 detection points can be made to perform the function of a braking module by using software.

Keep all track powered. Avoid mechanisms to remove track power from stretches of track. Do not use signals to isolate sections of track - that is analog control.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline river6109  
#7 Posted : 27 April 2016 03:53:53(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Dale and others, I appreciate your logic behind operating your system via computer and one day I will go down this path as it looks like a much cheaper and effortless exercise compared with the modules I'm using.

the one part I would however keep is my reflective opto coupler which I think will deliver a better and more reliable function than other sensors. All I need is a program which I can integrate and program and this means learning a few steps how to do it. it appears it easy to do but until I get my hands onto it and try it out I'll never find out., it would be nice to hear from anyone who uses computer control to add his or her experience and to explain how easy it all works.

it may also be of some interest if we can open up a new topic under computer control

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#8 Posted : 29 April 2016 04:36:32(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I find that small isolated lengths of running rail connected to an s88 is extremely reliable. Much simpler than adding additional electronics and points of failure.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline applor  
#9 Posted : 07 June 2016 06:46:11(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Dale,

How many S88 detection points are recommended for a block section of track for stopping at a signal?

From my count you need two - one for when entering the section and for the PC to begin braking of the lok, then a second one right near the signal for the PC to detect how close it is to the signal to ensure it stops prior.

Is this correct? This assumes your train is shorter than the section of block so that it does not stick out behind onto a point.

I would like to think that the PC software such as Rocrail has the ability to define consist lengths and block lengths so when doing automatic running on random routes that it does not try and stop a long train in a short block and is instead forced to choose the longer block or chooses the short block only if the long train is through running.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline Roland  
#10 Posted : 24 December 2016 16:13:59(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 332
Location: Toronto, Canada
I'm wondering if it's possible and makes sense to have a loko slow down to speed X when it enters a station siding and continue to travel at that speed until it reaches the signal at the end of the platform. This might make it possible for trains of any length and likely any entrance speed to stop at the same spot (if it's not a really short siding). I assume you would need an entrance sensor and a sensor just before the signal. When the sensor just before the signal is reached, the loko would be instructed to gracefully reduce speed from X to 0 (assuming all lokos have the same rate of deceleration configured). Anyone know if this can be done (using some sort of train control software)
My Layout Build | Märklin CS3+ | K-track | Merkur | Viessmann | LDT | iTrain | Modeling DB + SBB
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