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Offline dickinsonj  
#1 Posted : 23 March 2016 15:31:45(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Hi All,

I am considering a Roco 68152 (Roco Royal Bavarian Steam Locomotive S 3/6 'Pfalzbahn' of the KBayStsB). I know very little about Roco models and up until now most of my HO equipment has been Marklin.

Any input about Roco Loks in general would be greatly appreciated, and any insights into this particular model would be even better.

Thanks,

Jim
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline nitramretep  
#2 Posted : 23 March 2016 15:45:29(UTC)
nitramretep

United States   
Joined: 22/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: lower hudson valley, ny
I am no expert but know of several people who own Roco loks. They are all report them as being good units but a common theme or complaint is the lack of pulling power, perhaps due to the plastic being used in place of cast metal or alloys. I like the unusual models Roco offers but am a little hesitant to buy until I get a few more comments from collector and operators I know. All in all I think they are good but the plastic use is a bit of a turn off for me. I would check to see if that particular lok is plastic or metal (alloy). I am sure there are others with far more experience than me on this site.

I have no Roco engines myself so the weight or plastic comments are based on other's comments. I can say the locos look pretty good, I am tempted to get the TEE by Roco myself.

Edited by user 25 March 2016 17:27:05(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline river6109  
#3 Posted : 23 March 2016 15:56:22(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,635
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Jim, although I'm a big fan of Roco locos , steam locos are not my preferred option, the motor is in the tender and this can be a setback when you have longer or heavier trains unless you use 2 of them, having said this they are alright on an even surface, details etc is always excellent and the overall weight isn't bad either but the tender can only produce a certain amount of weight. sometimes the driven axles on a tender can be as little as 2 axles and this restricts the pulling power but let me not put you off as these locos do their job otherwise they wouldn't sell or would be still on the market. I've written a couple times to Roco, as they've added a rod through from the tender motor to the main driving wheels on the loco itself but in fact it doesn't improve the pulling power it only keeps the wheels moving. I've suggested with this innovation why not add a couple of rubber tyres to the main driving wheels but they said it was impossible to do so. their counter part diesel and electric locos are excellent with pulling power and sometimes outdo Märklin locos like the crocodile, SBB Ae 8/14 and others and sometimes carry more weight as well. Roco has always been criticized for its plastic housing and parts falling off (over the years) but now Märklin uses also plastic after add ons, its all gone quite for a sudden.

than you have the critics who say all Roco locos have a plastic housing and this is also unfounded because the Roco SBB crocodile is almost all metal except the middle section of the housing.

I have 2 steam locos, 1.) DR 18201 which is a beauty and the other came in a set 2.) SBB C 5/6 steam loco which is also very nice. and I've never had any problems with them.

I'd say go for it, depends on the price and if there are any comparisons with other similar or same locos come back to us

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 23 March 2016 15:59:58(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: nitramretep Go to Quoted Post
They are all report them as being good units but a common theme or complaint is the lack of pulling power, perhaps due to the plastic being used in place of cast metal or alloys.
I cannot confirm a general problem with pulling power.
I don't have the S 3/6 Jim considers to buy. I have models of BR 01.10 with 5 powered axles and models of BR 50 with 7 powered axles and the pulling power is quite good.

BTW: The Märklin TRAXX loco with the plastic body is heavier than the Märklin TRAXX loco with the metal body.
Don't buy Roco if you prefer metal bodies.
Buy Roco if you prefer scale models.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline river6109  
#5 Posted : 23 March 2016 16:06:02(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,635
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: nitramretep Go to Quoted Post
I am no expert but know of several people who own Roco loks. They are all report them as being good units but a common theme or complaint is the lack of pulling power, perhaps due to the plastic being used in place of cast metal or alloys. I like the unusual models Roco offers but am a little hesitant to buy until I get a few more comments from collector and operators I know. All in all I think they are good but the plastic use is a bit of a turn off for me. I would check to see if that particular lok is plastic or metal (alloy). I am sure there are others with far more experience than me on this site.



I can assure you the tender is not made of plastic which is its main power supply but the weight of a tender is restricted how much weight you can achieve and unfortunately Roco has not improved or altered their motor driving options (as mentioned above, people who buy Roco steam locos must be still satisfied because every year they produce more of them), you will also find the boiler will be either inside of metal with a plastic detailed cover housing on it or metal itself.

sometimes you get steam locos with 5 axle tenders and Roco may power 3 of them or three wheel tender and 2 are powered, you will also find DC locos would have more powered tender axles as AC locos because of the slider has to be added.

I personally have restricted the purchase of Roco Steam locos but this is because of my layout construction (mountainous regions) and I have enough steam locos from Märklin.

here for instance is my DR 18201 with 2 motorized tenders and sound, one could buy the extra tender without a motor and I've added one and as you can see there doesn't seem to be a problem with pulling power and the otehr loco is a Märklin BR 41 (3082) converted into digital with sound)



John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 23 March 2016 18:44:19(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
I am considering a Roco 68152 (Roco Royal Bavarian Steam Locomotive S 3/6 'Pfalzbahn' of the KBayStsB).
A German page with information about Roco 68152 can be found here:
http://www.modellbahn-fo...0-0-0-0-68152/index.html

Page indicates 5 powered axles, so tractive effort should be no issue. Page says 2 traction tyres, but from the explosion diagram I presume there are 4 traction tyres.


What kind of track do you use?
IIRC there were some issues with this class on badly laid track, especially M track. The powered wheels of the loco have low flanges - there shouldn't be issues with well-laid C track or K track.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline dickinsonj  
#7 Posted : 23 March 2016 18:49:08(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Wow - lots of good info - thanks everyone for the replies.

I do not see anything about the materials on any descriptions of the 68152, which leads me believe that it might be largely plastic. From my experience most companies tell you when their loks are mostly made of metal. I might be able to accept that part as it appears to be very nicely detailed, but the driving arrangement of the Roco steam loks seems like a problem to me. All of the descriptions say that it is powered on all 5 axles, which is odd on a "Pacific" which really only has three drive axles. I do like that Roco modeled the inside cylinders and the connection to the cranked second drive axle.

Now that I know that the motor is in the tender I am guessing it might be powered on two axles in the tender and three in the lok, although even Roco's web site does not list specifics. They do show it having just two traction tires, so those are most likely on one of the tender axles. If the main drive wheels in the lok do not have traction tires I don't see how it could have very good pulling power. John's upgrade with two tenders seems to fix the pulling problem - nice looking models and layout you have there BTW John!

My layout is currently all at "sea level" but I am hoping to change that fairly soon. With any mountainous grades I would be concerned about the lok's ability to pull more than a small number of cars unless I modify it. My track (except for some in my yard) is all C track so that part would be fine. The price is $465 (USD) which is certainly not cheap and I would be disappointed to pay that much and not have it pull properly.

I recently refurbished my Marklin Wurttemberg "C" and it is running very nicely now but I could still use another Era I lok or two. Marklin makes some decent looking Era I freight loks but only Roco, Brawa and Fleischmann offer any Era I passenger loks for Marklin's AC system. The Fleischmann loks are only powered on two axles, no doubt in the tender.

But thanks to all of your great replies I now know way more than I did a just few hours ago. I guess I will hold off for now and keep looking for better options.

Jim
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 23 March 2016 19:05:35(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
If the main drive wheels in the lok do not have traction tires I don't see how it could have very good pulling power.
The tender is motor plus ballast weight and has (probably) four traction tyres.
The loco is not heavy, but it's better if the axles of the loco are also powered.

At the last club meeting I was astonished what a long train a Märklin DHG 500 can haul - a loco with plastic body and just one powered axle.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline dickinsonj  
#9 Posted : 23 March 2016 19:14:22(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
The tender is motor plus ballast weight and has (probably) four traction tyres.
The loco is not heavy, but it's better if the axles of the loco are also powered.

At the last club meeting I was astonished what a long train a Märklin DHG 500 can haul - a loco with plastic body and just one powered axle.

That is good to hear but the whole strange drive arrangement makes me concerned. I assume they do this to allow a prototypically correct boiler size, although the proportions on my Marklin steam locomotives look fine to me.

I have not yet written this locomotive off of my list, but I am also not ready to commit to it at this point either. I would prefer the main drive axles and motor to both be located in the boiler - I find that my loks often run much like the prototypes - for both good and bad - largely due to reproducing the drive arrangements of the original locomotive.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 23 March 2016 19:44:20(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
I cannot see where the propulsion is, but I can hear where the sound comes from. Motor in the tender and speaker in the boiler have an advantage I can hear.

Even Märklin make tender-driven models.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline dickinsonj  
#11 Posted : 23 March 2016 21:25:25(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
I cannot see where the propulsion is, but I can hear where the sound comes from. Motor in the tender and speaker in the boiler have an advantage I can hear.

Even Märklin make tender-driven models.


Good point - the sound would be more realistic with the speaker in the boiler - I never considered that point.

I didn't know that any companies ever put the motor and drive in the tender, so I learned more than I expected when I started this thread.

BigGrin

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline mike c  
#12 Posted : 23 March 2016 21:48:57(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
The description in one of the ebay listings for the 68152 mentions 5 axles are powered. The tender has only 4 axles, so this would have to mean that if the drive was in the tender, at least one axle of the lok would also have to be powered for this to be true.

I do not think that anybody would have a problem with a tender driven lok, unless you are planning to haul a train with 14 to 20 coaches or a shorter train with pick up slider on each coach.

In any case, the chassis of the lok and the tender are most likely die cast, so the lok would not have a weight problem.
The best thing would be to check the lok out at a dealer, but as you are talking about an older model, this might be a little complicated.

I found this video of the Roco S 3/6 (DC):


and here is the spare part list for a similar model: http://www.roco.cc/doc/ET/1/DE/72219_201974.pdf

The parts diagram seems to show that the main wheels are powered, as well as a pair in the tender, so the model is not completely tender driven.

Regards

Mike C
Offline dickinsonj  
#13 Posted : 23 March 2016 22:11:42(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
In any case, the chassis of the lok and the tender are most likely die cast, so the lok would not have a weight problem.
The best thing would be to check the lok out at a dealer, but as you are talking about an older model, this might be a little complicated.

The parts diagram seems to show that the main wheels are powered, as well as a pair in the tender, so the model is not completely tender driven.

Regards

Mike C


That is my best guess - that there are two axles in the tender that are driven (one of which probably has the two traction tires) plus the three main drive axles in the lok. If the lok and tender have die cast chassis it might be OK, although John (river6109) indicated that Roco does not install traction tires on any of the driven wheels in their steam loks. If there were traction tires on the driven wheels in the lok I would feel a lot better about it.

I am in Ohio and the dealer that I prefer (who has this model listed for $464 USD) is located in Vancouver, BC - so I can't really check it out in person. I might call the owner of the store and get his input before I make a decision. It is listed at a couple of other dealers and on eBay, but for a lot more money. I have always felt safe buying Marklin loks online as they usually meet a pretty high standard of performance. Roco is new to me and I don't have a good feel for their operation although you can see the high level of detail in the images, which is what initially attracted me.

Thanks for the input Mike.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline river6109  
#14 Posted : 24 March 2016 02:48:08(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,635
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I think there is a misunderstanding on the horizon.

Mike: when Roco talks about driven wheels/axles (5axles for instance) what they mean by that is: 2 motor driven axles with either 2 or 4 rubber tyres and than you have got 3 Axles on the loco itself and these axles are driven via a driveshaft = and this how they come to 5 axles, however the 3 loco axles have no input in the pulling performance of the loco

Jim,

every Roco loco has rubber tyres and every Roco Steam loco has rubber tyres it all depends how many axles Roco supplies with rubber tyres, sometimes 1 axle with 2 rubber tyres and sometimes 2 axles with four rubber tyres and the same goes for driven tender motor axles, sometimes 2 sometimes 3 axles are tender driven axles.

when it comes to the main wheels they do not possess rubber tyres although they are drive via a shaft from the the tender motor they do not have an input in the pulling performance of a steam loco.

there is the misunderstanding of motor driven axles and main driven axles (main driven axles are the norm how a loco's main driven axles are powered via pistons.

what customers have complained about it, I assume, that steam locos with powered axles from the tender and previous without a shaft going to the main loco driven axles the main driven axles didn't co-respond to the overall speed of the loco and this is why they've installed or added a shaft to have the main Loco driven axles going at the same speed as the loco.
as an example the Märklin BR 53 used to stop at turnouts (because of its ill fated design) because the rubbertyre(s) didn't touch the track anymore and the axles without rubber tyres, it wasn't enough to push the loco along over the turnout and this is a proof although the Axles are powered via a shaft from the roco motor in the tender, the main loco axles have no input into the performance of the loco or its load its pushing or pulling

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline river6109  
#15 Posted : 24 March 2016 02:50:03(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,635
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
I cannot see where the propulsion is, but I can hear where the sound comes from. Motor in the tender and speaker in the boiler have an advantage I can hear.

Even Märklin make tender-driven models.


Good point - the sound would be more realistic with the speaker in the boiler - I never considered that point.

I didn't know that any companies ever put the motor and drive in the tender, so I learned more than I expected when I started this thread.

BigGrin



Jim, there is another manufacturer like Liliput who does the same thing (motor in the tender)

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline river6109  
#16 Posted : 24 March 2016 03:03:49(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,635
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: nitramretep Go to Quoted Post
They are all report them as being good units but a common theme or complaint is the lack of pulling power, perhaps due to the plastic being used in place of cast metal or alloys.
I cannot confirm a general problem with pulling power.
I don't have the S 3/6 Jim considers to buy. I have models of BR 01.10 with 5 powered axles and models of BR 50 with 7 powered axles and the pulling power is quite good.

BTW: The Märklin TRAXX loco with the plastic body is heavier than the Märklin TRAXX loco with the metal body.
Don't buy Roco if you prefer metal bodies.
Buy Roco if you prefer scale models.


should it not read : The Roco TRAXX loco with the plastic body is heavier than the Märklin TRAXX loco with the metal body.

this is what I found on a few Roco locos, the loco itself is heavier overall as Märklin locos,


When Tom is talking about 5 powered and 7 powered axles, the rubber tyres or actual motor driven axles with rubber tyres make the difference so it really doesn't matter how many powered axles you've got there, only 2 axles which will have an impact on your locos pulling power. the rest of the axles are just there for the fun and ride along so they are not left behind.BigGrin

there are still limitations when it comes to scale/prototype models with Roco models, sometimes parts are left out or do not have the full design because of front axles or bogies hindering the maneuverability to manage sharp curves., for instance the extension piston bar (steamloco on Roco or Märklin models = can be added in a display case) or the side/front construction of the frame (BR 118, Br E 19, BR E 18 etc.) on both the Märklin and Roco model or you get special reports from Mike , our loco detective, whereas the loco had been designed with a fault.

another point I would like to make is if the loco is not equipped with sound but the same model is offered with a sound version always make sure the non sound version has provision for a speaker, most the time they will but just make sure.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline dickinsonj  
#17 Posted : 24 March 2016 03:19:52(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
I think there is a misunderstanding on the horizon.

Mike: when Roco talks about driven wheels/axles (5axles for instance) what they mean by that is: 2 motor driven axles with either 2 or 4 rubber tyres and than you have got 3 Axles on the loco itself and these axles are driven via a driveshaft = and this how they come to 5 axles, however the 3 loco axles have no input in the pulling performance of the loco

Jim,

every Roco loco has rubber tyres and every Roco Steam loco has rubber tyres it all depends how many axles Roco supplies with rubber tyres, sometimes 1 axle with 2 rubber tyres and sometimes 2 axles with four rubber tyres and the same goes for driven tender motor axles, sometimes 2 sometimes 3 axles are tender driven axles.

when it comes to the main wheels they do not possess rubber tyres although they are drive via a shaft from the the tender motor they do not have an input in the pulling performance of a steam loco.

there is the misunderstanding of motor driven axles and main driven axles (main driven axles are the norm how a loco's main driven axles are powered via pistons.

what customers have complained about it, I assume, that steam locos with powered axles from the tender and previous without a shaft going to the main loco driven axles the main driven axles didn't co-respond to the overall speed of the loco and this is why they've installed or added a shaft to have the main Loco driven axles going at the same speed as the loco.
as an example the Märklin BR 53 used to stop at turnouts (because of its ill fated design) because the rubbertyre(s) didn't touch the track anymore and the axles without rubber tyres, it wasn't enough to push the loco along over the turnout and this is a proof although the Axles are powered via a shaft from the roco motor in the tender, the main loco axles have no input into the performance of the loco or its load its pushing or pulling

John


John,

Thanks for that great explanation of how the Roco steam locomotives actually operate.

Maybe I am just too much of a traditionalist but having the lok powered by just two axles on the tender seems like a really bad idea to me. I would think that would make it operate more like an electric or a diesel than a steamer. I like my loks to not only look good but to operate in a way that is consistent with the prototype. This lok models all four cylinders and their drive mechanisms, but then it is driven by just four small wheels on the tender. I find that arrangement very odd even if it is not unique to Roco.

I love the look of this lok but now that I understand more about it, I do not believe that I would like the way it operates, even if the pulling power is adequate.

That was a very helpful post for me.

Jim

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline river6109  
#18 Posted : 24 March 2016 04:29:33(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,635
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Jim, sometimes it is wise to forget how it works and just admire the loco itself with the appropriate carriages behind it, you will find you get enough satisfaction without thinking about the ins and outs., reconsider it !!

I know it is a bit of a turnoff but int the end its the model and it's looks, I've seen this particular loco advertised on ebay (the only one) and the price isn't cheap, you may find a similar loco from Märklin, good luck.

you always could if you wanted to buy 2 and you get enough torgue and power and I think some of the modellers do this, e.g. BR 44's, BR 52's etc etc.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline H0  
#19 Posted : 24 March 2016 07:42:27(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
when it comes to the main wheels they do not possess rubber tyres although they are drive via a shaft from the the tender motor they do not have an input in the pulling performance of a steam loco.
They do have an input on the pulling performance. The driven axles of the loco are powered by the motor and do not add resistance that must be overcome by the powered tender axles, on the contrary they add a small amount of pulling power to the total tractive effort of the loco.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline H0  
#20 Posted : 24 March 2016 07:46:46(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: nitramretep Go to Quoted Post
[...]
[...]

BTW: The Märklin TRAXX loco with the plastic body is heavier than the Märklin TRAXX loco with the metal body.
Don't buy Roco if you prefer metal bodies.
Buy Roco if you prefer scale models.


should it not read : The Roco TRAXX loco with the plastic body is heavier than the Märklin TRAXX loco with the metal body.
Yes, it should not read Roco there.
Märklin offers two versions of the TRAXX locos: a scale model with plastic body and a toy with metal body.
The model with the plastic body looks much better and it is also heavier.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline river6109  
#21 Posted : 24 March 2016 08:02:45(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,635
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
when it comes to the main wheels they do not possess rubber tyres although they are drive via a shaft from the the tender motor they do not have an input in the pulling performance of a steam loco.
They do have an input on the pulling performance. The driven axles of the loco are powered by the motor and do not add resistance that must be overcome by the powered tender axles, on the contrary they add a small amount of pulling power to the total tractive effort of the loco.



Tom, 1 %

John

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5 years in Destruction mode
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Offline H0  
#22 Posted : 24 March 2016 08:17:39(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Tom, 1 %
The difference is bigger: the powered axles with all those rods add resistance if they have to be driven by the tender axles.
I think it's rather 95% versus 105% or even 90 % versus 105 % - where tender driving without loco would be 100 %. Powered loco axles give more than 100 %, unpowered loco plus tender gives less than 100 %.

See the tender as a two-truck loco with two powered axles - like V 100 or a short version of E 41. Plenty pulling power for a passenger train consisting of modern plastic coaches.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline dennisb  
#23 Posted : 24 March 2016 12:50:52(UTC)
dennisb

Sweden   
Joined: 21/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 217
Location: Kronoberg
I have 6-8 Roco locos and I must say that one of the biggest advantages over Märklin is that they generally are much more quiet than the Märklin ones in operations. The pick up shoe is doesn't make the same noise as the ones (most) from Märklin. That's nice!

D.
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Offline mrmarklin  
#24 Posted : 24 March 2016 12:56:08(UTC)
mrmarklin

United States   
Joined: 27/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 890
Location: Burney, CA
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
I cannot see where the propulsion is, but I can hear where the sound comes from. Motor in the tender and speaker in the boiler have an advantage I can hear.

Even Märklin make tender-driven models.


AFAIK Märklin has never made a tender drive steam Lok.

What model would this be?
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
Offline H0  
#25 Posted : 24 March 2016 13:13:38(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mrmarklin Go to Quoted Post
AFAIK Märklin has never made a tender drive steam Lok.
What model would this be?
The Adler, the nice little 1:80 model they list in their H0 range.
I think the I gauge model is also tender-driven.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline mbarreto  
#26 Posted : 24 March 2016 16:47:56(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257

In general I prefer the motor in the locomotive because I prefer see the start of movement with this configuration. We can see sometimes the driving wheels start to move before the others. IMHO that is more like the real thing is in my imagination.
The Roco cardan shaft crossing the cabin in some locomotives also give the start look as I like, but I don't like see the cardan shaft. In resume, I prefer the m*arklin way of do things (just I prefer 3 axles powered by teeth wheels instead of side rods as is fashion now).

About the loudspeaker in the tender or locomotive body, as the discussion starts to arrive, i think time will give us stereo locomotives with loudspeakers in both tender and loco body, so we can hear the water and some coal from the tender and all the other sounds from the loco body RollEyes .

Miguel
Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


Offline RayF  
#27 Posted : 24 March 2016 17:54:18(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I don't believe anyone can tell with such precision where the sounds are coming from. As long as the speaker is somewhere in the vicinity of the loco your mind tells you that the sound is coming from the loco's cylinders, whistle or whatever.

To tell the difference between sounds coming from the loco boiler and the tender you have to have your nose touching the loco. BigGrin
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline dickinsonj  
#28 Posted : 24 March 2016 18:02:56(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post
In resume, I prefer the m*arklin way of do things (just I prefer 3 axles powered by teeth wheels instead of side rods as is fashion now).

I agree on all of that. I find that the gear driven axles operate better than ones operated by only by the side rods, which I assume is primarily a cost savings measure. The side rod mechanism is not any more robust on those models than it was on the ones with gears. I have one lok that is only rod driven and the wheels are not very tight on some of the axles, which can allow the two sides to get out of phase. I had to resort to my book on the theory of steam locomotive operation to figure out the phase relationship between the two sides before it would operate properly again.

Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post
About the loudspeaker in the tender or locomotive body, as the discussion starts to arrive, i think time will give us stereo locomotives with loudspeakers in both tender and loco body, so we can hear the water and some coal from the tender and all the other sounds from the loco body RollEyes .
Miguel

That is an interesting suggestion - I never considered sound coming from multiple locations. My first Marklin models were simple analog devices with the only real feature being lights which switched according to the direction of travel. Things have gotten way more complicated now and much more interesting with the advent of the CAN bus systems.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline river6109  
#29 Posted : 24 March 2016 18:31:48(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,635
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Jim, most the time what's missing is in trains which have 2 motors on each end, e.g. ICE train and similar, they install 1 speaker where the sound decoder is located but nothing on the other end and I have installed speakers on both ends and this sounds nice as the first driving loco goes past you than hear the motor noise from the end loco, to much for manufacturers to worry about.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline dickinsonj  
#30 Posted : 24 March 2016 19:17:37(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Jim, most the time what's missing is in trains which have 2 motors on each end, e.g. ICE train and similar, they install 1 speaker where the sound decoder is located but nothing on the other end and I have installed speakers on both ends and this sounds nice as the first driving loco goes past you than hear the motor noise from the end loco, to much for manufacturers to worry about.

John

Yeah - and it is just not the sound with those models - it is the lack of drive in both motor units. I have wanted an ICE train for a long time but Marklin only powers the one end car and as you said, uses the other for a speaker. I do understand that the manufacturers need to keep costs in hand but I want both end cars powered for the best operation.

I will not buy a current Marklin ICE because of that. When I buy a modern high speed train set I will get their TGV which has both end cars powered.

They make their choices and we vote with our money! Hopefully they will eventually get the message.

Jim
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline sgtb  
#31 Posted : 25 March 2016 03:15:41(UTC)
sgtb

United States   
Joined: 21/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 27
Location: Central Ohio
Hi Jim,

Just to let you know Robbie's Hobbies had a TGV on the back shelf. Not sure of the model number, but he may make you a deal if it's still there.BigGrin


Bob
Offline dennisb  
#32 Posted : 25 March 2016 06:53:51(UTC)
dennisb

Sweden   
Joined: 21/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 217
Location: Kronoberg
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post
In resume, I prefer the m*arklin way of do things (just I prefer 3 axles powered by teeth wheels instead of side rods as is fashion now).

I agree on all of that. I find that the gear driven axles operate better than ones operated by only by the side rods, which I assume is primarily a cost savings measure. The side rod mechanism is not any more robust on those models than it was on the ones with gears. I have one lok that is only rod driven and the wheels are not very tight on some of the axles, which can allow the two sides to get out of phase. I had to resort to my book on the theory of steam locomotive operation to figure out the phase relationship between the two sides before it would operate properly again.

Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post
About the loudspeaker in the tender or locomotive body, as the discussion starts to arrive, i think time will give us stereo locomotives with loudspeakers in both tender and loco body, so we can hear the water and some coal from the tender and all the other sounds from the loco body RollEyes .
Miguel

That is an interesting suggestion - I never considered sound coming from multiple locations. My first Marklin models were simple analog devices with the only real feature being lights which switched according to the direction of travel. Things have gotten way more complicated now and much more interesting with the advent of the CAN bus systems.


I think this is a great idea. But even higher on my wish list for sound would be some kind of external output of the audio from the locos as well. For example an "Airplay" type of wifi audio, bluetooth audio or simply the same sound coming out of the Central Station as from the loco. By doing that it would be possible to send the bass frequencies of the sounds to a stereo system and make the impact way more impressive. By having the speakers still in the locos it would still give you the same experience if following the sound with the loco. A bit off-topic but very interesting I think.
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Offline dickinsonj  
#33 Posted : 25 March 2016 12:30:10(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: sgtb Go to Quoted Post
Hi Jim,

Just to let you know Robbie's Hobbies had a TGV on the back shelf. Not sure of the model number, but he may make you a deal if it's still there.BigGrin


Bob


Thanks Bob - I should check that out and see if he still has it.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline Unholz  
#34 Posted : 19 June 2016 18:54:11(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Switzerland
I think I can add this to the existing thread on Roco locomotives rather than creating a new topic:

According to a message in Swiss forums (for example here: http://www.forum.hag-inf...postID=131512#post131512 ), Roco seems to be using a new type of plastic for (some of?) their trucks/bogies. The user writes that Roco so far mostly used plastic material called (in German language) Polyamid 6 (PA6) and Acrylnitrilbutadienstyrol (ABS).

These common types can easily be repaired with cyanoacrylate adhesives. The new material employed by Roco is something cheaper and more brittle called polypropylene (PP), and this substance seems to dissolve when one attempts to bond it with adhesives common to our hobby. Thus, it might be sensible to keep an eye on the situation and preferably buy older Roco models when one wants to run them potentially roughly on layouts rather than leaving them in their boxes or only displaying them in showcases.
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Offline alan  
#35 Posted : 19 June 2016 20:54:52(UTC)
alan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 225
Location: devon

i have several Roco engines 62300 62301 nords plus a few limited editions
beautiful engines but you have to be careful when handling them to many fiddly bits

in johns video there was a 18 201 i have one of them but mine is converted to run on fleischmann FMZ system
i got quite a surprise when i put it my fmz layout it took off like a rocket
without doubt the fastest engine i have ever owned

i really do like roco but my favourite is bemo HOm

alan plymouth
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#36 Posted : 19 June 2016 21:27:56(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,862
Location: CA, USA
That is really scary. Sounds like a silly thing they should just reverse now that they know it is a problem? I've been debating the new BE 4/6 in brown and a few others but this scares me...
SBB Era 2-5
Offline PhillipL  
#37 Posted : 20 June 2016 12:06:47(UTC)
PhillipL

United States   
Joined: 24/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 123
I have quite few ROCO locomotives. I have recently had problems with several locomotives over the last two years. When I have returned items, ROCO apparently no longer repairs them. I had a OBB diesel that I sent back for broken bumpers, had a replacement arrive 6.5 months later from my dealer which had exactly the same issue. I had other problems with other items to point where I gave up and closed my account with my former dealer. I would say, stay clear of ROCO.
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Offline GLI  
#38 Posted : 20 June 2016 12:17:22(UTC)
GLI


Joined: 28/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 82
Location: Lithgow NSW Australia
Hi Stefan

Thank you for this information.

Since Marklin started using cheap and nasty 3 pole motors, I have been looking for alternatives, and Roco was one of my choices because of the large skew-wound 5 pole motor that they use in most of their locos, and which provides smooth and reliable operation. I have purchased a number of older second hand locos and rolling stock which,judging from you post, should not be affected, and some new locos (2 BR 50's) that have caused no problems to date but which may be some cause for concern in the future.

News on these things is hard to come by out here in Australia, especially as I do not speak German. If you happen to hear any thing further on this subject, I would be most grateful if you could provide this additional information in this post.

Regards
Geoff
Offline grnwtrs  
#39 Posted : 22 June 2016 06:05:39(UTC)
grnwtrs

United States   
Joined: 18/06/2005(UTC)
Posts: 669
Location: El Sobrante, California
Originally Posted by: dennisb Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post
In resume, I prefer the m*arklin way of do things (just I prefer 3 axles powered by teeth wheels instead of side rods as is fashion now).

I agree on all of that. I find that the gear driven axles operate better than ones operated by only by the side rods, which I assume is primarily a cost savings measure. The side rod mechanism is not any more robust on those models than it was on the ones with gears. I have one lok that is only rod driven and the wheels are not very tight on some of the axles, which can allow the two sides to get out of phase. I had to resort to my book on the theory of steam locomotive operation to figure out the phase relationship between the two sides before it would operate properly again.

Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post
About the loudspeaker in the tender or locomotive body, as the discussion starts to arrive, i think time will give us stereo locomotives with loudspeakers in both tender and loco body, so we can hear the water and some coal from the tender and all the other sounds from the loco body RollEyes .
Miguel

That is an interesting suggestion - I never considered sound coming from multiple locations. My first Marklin models were simple analog devices with the only real feature being lights which switched according to the direction of travel. Things have gotten way more complicated now and much more interesting with the advent of the CAN bus systems.


I think this is a great idea. But even higher on my wish list for sound would be some kind of external output of the audio from the locos as well. For example an "Airplay" type of wifi audio, bluetooth audio or simply the same sound coming out of the Central Station as from the loco. By doing that it would be possible to send the bass frequencies of the sounds to a stereo system and make the impact way more impressive. By having the speakers still in the locos it would still give you the same experience if following the sound with the loco. A bit off-topic but very interesting I think.


Yea, the Bluetooth sounds great, when I get my hearing aid, I can key in to the ROCO sounds, in the meantime, I think I will stick with Marklin.
I survived the bankruptcy, so I guess I surive with Marklin a bit longer.Laugh

Best regards,
gene
Offline hxmiesa  
#40 Posted : 30 June 2016 12:29:38(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,519
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post
These common types can easily be repaired with cyanoacrylate adhesives. The new material employed by Roco is something cheaper and more brittle called polypropylene (PP), and this substance seems to dissolve when one attempts to bond it with adhesives common to our hobby.

PP is not an adecuate plastic for tecnical toys. Actually it is pretty darn impossible to glue PP to anything. Usually you have to MELT it, f.x. using friction/ultrasound. In any case the plastic will deform at the bonding point.
Also, you wouldnt be able to paint PP parts very well.
I sincerely think (and hope!) that they are using a different plastic than PP!
Also, the properties of PP is not very stable. It would be almost impossible to mold PP-parts to any precision what-so-ever. Two consecutive parts coming out of the molding machine will have different meassurements! ;-)

Still... The world of polymers move so fast and innovations are being made constantly, so I cannot exclude that some new kind of modified PP could be used.
PP is cheap. Actually it is the cheapest plastic out there, after PE.
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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