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Offline NS1200  
#1 Posted : 11 March 2016 20:39:24(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
The Dutch Safety Board released conclusions of investigations today in respect of a train collision on 6th March 2015 at Tilburg,The Netherlands.
On that day,a local passengertrain Mat'64 collided with a mixed freighttrain of which the last car was containing 50 tons of C4H6 Butadiene,a poisenous and flammable gas used for the production of Nylon.
Fortunately,there were no fatal injuries,be it that some firebrigade people got sick and needed hospital treatment.
As always in an accident,there were various contributing factors.
The freighttrain departed some 3 hours late which caused the operator to ask for an unscheduled call at Tilburg in order to change loco drivers.
The length of the train was misunderstood so that it was put on a siding too close to a switch,causing the red signal to remain in red.
The locodriver of the passengertrain ignored the red signal and ren into the gas car.
Mat'64 does not have buffers so that the train overran the buffers of the gascar.

The most important recommendation is that a tankcar holding such dangerous substances should not be at the end of a train.

Please watch the animation in the clip contained in following link:

http://onderzoeksraad.nl...ods-by-rail-6-march-2015
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
thanks 6 users liked this useful post by NS1200
Offline xxup  
#2 Posted : 11 March 2016 21:17:27(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,463
Location: Australia
What is it with train drivers and red lights?
Adrian
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Australia flag by abFlags.com
Offline skeeterbuck  
#3 Posted : 11 March 2016 22:49:59(UTC)
skeeterbuck

United States   
Joined: 15/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 523
Location: Maryland, Baltimore
It seems to me that human error was the cause of the accident. First the length of the freight train was incorrectly given and them the driver of the passenger train missed the red signal. Nothing failed on the equipment that directly caused the accident. just my $.02 Mellow

I'm sure glad that the injuries were minor in nature. If that chemical would have exploded I'm sure that would have been much more tragic.

Chuck
Offline NS1200  
#4 Posted : 12 March 2016 08:18:30(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
What is it with train drivers and red lights?


I fear routine is the main cause.
You are all by yourselves in the cabin,if you drive the same stretch every time,routine sets in.
This time,the driver just did not expect a red light,in particular a socalled dwarflight lower to the ground.
He was not used to see a freighttrain there and did not expect the switch going to the left.
A number of slow speed sections like this one are not protected by automatic braking,the red light being the only safety device.

Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline NS1200  
#5 Posted : 12 March 2016 08:28:40(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Originally Posted by: skeeterbuck Go to Quoted Post
It seems to me that human error was the cause of the accident. First the length of the freight train was incorrectly given and them the driver of the passenger train missed the red signal. Nothing failed on the equipment that directly caused the accident. just my $.02 Mellow

I'm sure glad that the injuries were minor in nature. If that chemical would have exploded I'm sure that would have been much more tragic.

Chuck


Every time accidents like this happen,we have a renewed national debate about the need to move dangerous chemicals by rail.
Fact is that a tremendeous volume of very poisenous chemicals are being moved by rail in Europe every day (and night!).
How many times are we waiting for a train at a platform during daytime watching tankertrains to pass the station at close distance and just accepting our faith?
The railcars used,in particular the gascars,are of a very safe design but as can be testified by the incident of this topic there is a risk always that gas will escape.
It is my firm belief that railtransport is essential for moving chemicals,whether we like it or not.
Trying to move these volumes by road is simply impossible and holds a much higher risk.
Politicians know this but what can they say to keep their voters happy?

We can only learn from our mistakes,in this case by not putting a full gascar at the end of the train.
Legislation is on its way.

Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline shunter  
#6 Posted : 12 March 2016 09:17:26(UTC)
shunter

Netherlands   
Joined: 12/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 97
Very bias media coverage in my opnion in most Dutch media ,
The position of the gascar had nothing to do with the cause nor will there be any position in a train where re risk is less than any other in my opinion as no accident and/or cause will ever be the same.
Important is this is that the design and contruction of the gascar as per regulations worked as it should, minimizing the risk in case of a accident , same related to some road accidents recently where tankertrucks where involved.
Dealing with dangerous goods daily there is not authority or regulation that will ever eliminate human error or can replace common sense.

just an other 2 cents Mellow
Fokko
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by shunter
Offline NS1200  
#7 Posted : 12 March 2016 10:15:14(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
The report is by an official government institute,making recommendations for a safer life for all of us,nothing wrong with that.
It is good that at times our attention is drawn to the every day dangers of our complicated society,just to prevent we take everything for granted.
Some years ago there was a tankcar fire at the huge Kijfhoek shunting yard just south of Rotterdam.
Investigations revealed that the personel involved did not keep information as to the contents of the tankcars they were pushing over the shuntinghill.
This needs more than common sense,it needs stringent regulation.
If shippers of cargoes do not care,government has to step in and take control.
Kijfhoek is in the middle of a densily populated area,the wrong tankcar in the wrong place could kill thousends in their sleep.

Regulations of tank car design:regulations are there to be modified if the need arises,regulations are not carved into stone.
Same in international cargo shipping,regulations (IMO,SOLAS)are adjusted all the time,based on new insights.
Most dangerous cargoes are not allowed to be stowed under deck,but if shippers do not declare cargoes as dangerous,the risk is there to loose the ship and her crew.

Surely you would not like to be on board of this containervessel:

UserPostedImage
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#8 Posted : 12 March 2016 10:51:44(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,663
Location: New Zealand
Just like this one, the MV Rena, which hit a reef off the coast of Tauranga, NZ in 2011. It eventually broke up.

UserPostedImage





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Rena
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
Offline NS1200  
#9 Posted : 12 March 2016 11:35:55(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Vessel MSC Rena was not on fire,it hit the rocky underwater coast because of careless navigation.

Vessel Hanjin Pensylvania was carrying fireworks,with following results:

http://www.fortunes-de-m...in%20Pensylvania%207.jpg

http://viswa.mfame.guru/...erschiff-1658587-Web.png

Note the melted steel containers in the under deck bays.
Mind you,the vessel stayed afloat and was overhauled to sail again!

And the Kijfhoek shuntingyard fire,this time it was "only" a tankcar with Ethanol (C2H5OH):

Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline shunter  
#10 Posted : 12 March 2016 11:37:55(UTC)
shunter

Netherlands   
Joined: 12/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 97
Nothing wrong with regulations and procedures, merely wanted to point that politicians tend to try rule out all possible accidents failures through legislation something you will never achieve

re the fire hazard onboard ships that some regulations and segregation requirements are beyond of that for instance airfreights.
Stuff we put together in shipments by air are not allowed together in for instance a 20ft container , and even the containers them selves needs spacing between each other.
And don't worry we take things very serious re dangerous goods so all done the official way Blink


Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
The report is by an official government institute,making recommendations for a safer life for all of us,nothing wrong with that.
It is good that at times our attention is drawn to the every day dangers of our complicated society,just to prevent we take everything for granted.
Some years ago there was a tankcar fire at the huge Kijfhoek shunting yard just south of Rotterdam.
Investigations revealed that the personel involved did not keep information as to the contents of the tankcars they were pushing over the shuntinghill.
This needs more than common sense,it needs stringent regulation.
If shippers of cargoes do not care,government has to step in and take control.
Kijfhoek is in the middle of a densily populated area,the wrong tankcar in the wrong place could kill thousends in their sleep.

Regulations of tank car design:regulations are there to be modified if the need arises,regulations are not carved into stone.
Same in international cargo shipping,regulations (IMO,SOLAS)are adjusted all the time,based on new insights.
Most dangerous cargoes are not allowed to be stowed under deck,but if shippers do not declare cargoes as dangerous,the risk is there to loose the ship and her crew.

Surely you would not like to be on board of this containervessel:

UserPostedImage


When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by shunter
Offline NS1200  
#11 Posted : 12 March 2016 11:43:00(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Shunter,we are on the same side!
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline shunter  
#12 Posted : 12 March 2016 11:46:23(UTC)
shunter

Netherlands   
Joined: 12/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 97
Thanks, It's more the media i'm having trouble with in general on the way this kind of news is brought, but concerns all news actulally BigGrin
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Offline NS1200  
#13 Posted : 12 March 2016 13:32:15(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
The national (TV) news needs to be of a simple to understand level for most people.
Only if you are an expert in a specific field you have interest in proper detailed information,shipping or trains for example.
Once and a while,usually during wintertime,vessels get stranded on the Dutch coast.
Funny enough,they show you pictures of a stranded containervessel,comments being made about a stranded tanker......hahaha.
Well,most people have no clue about railtraffic or ocean shipping anyway,and why should they?
This forum goes one step further!

And about a gascar at the end of the train:
I see some merrit in putting dry cargo cars at the back because they all have spring buffers which can at least absorb some impact of the collission when hit from behind.
The clip says that the gascar was the only damaged car of the train.
If the gascar would have been further to the front of the train,the cars behind would have taken the blow,right?

And yes,i know this is all theory,with a shot of political ignorance.
The lack of slow speed automatic train braking has been discussed in government and judgement was that it would cost too much money to install.
The safety systems in operation in The Netherlands sooner or later need to be inbedded in the greater European safety systems,a very costly affair.
Same for the overhead power system:should the entire net go to 25,000 VAC,or can we stick to our 1,500 VDC system?
I would opt for the 25,000 VAC version,but who is going to pay?
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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