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Offline Minok  
#1 Posted : 31 January 2016 22:18:57(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
So nearly 10 years ago I had the plan to gradually build my digital system up from zero. Then life kicked me in the gut, and now almost a decade later I've taken my first steps: I've purchased some locos and they are on the way to the US from Germany. But that is all I have at this point.

What I need next is some CTrack, and then necessary control and power system to at least be able to test the locos and rolling stock as I build my collection over the next years. My target is a 1970-90 era set of trains, those that I rode on in Germany or watched in the stations and in the lines in Germany. So I know what I want and know what I'm not interested in; which means the stater sets out now typically have trains I don't want to run. There is/was a digital starter set that had a Mobil Controller and track setup without trains, but I don't think it was available in 110v transformer version.

My eventual goal is to have a computer controlled layout driven by PC software such as Train Controller from Freiwald Software.

With that target in mind I would like to only buy gear that will be used I such an eventual system. I'm hoping some of you can advise on the right parts going forward. Is Central Station 3 the controller needed or would a different interface be a less costly solution?

Specifically with the need to test and verify newly acquired locos, what is the minimal controller and gear to be able to do that and make use of it in an eventual mid sized home installation?

Mobil Station? One of the even smaller controllers in some starter kits? And how to power it given I've got 110vAC mains power.

I can but a controller such as a MS2 and whatever else is needed but would that just me silly vs buying a starter set? Even if it's a 220v starter set and purchasing the 110v transformers separately and tossing the 220v units?

Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline 3rail4life  
#2 Posted : 31 January 2016 23:26:43(UTC)
3rail4life

United States   
Joined: 23/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Northern California
The MS2 is great way to go for testing and operating new locos, the European switched mode power supply 66361 works fine with 110V, if you don't want to use it, sell it off and buy a 66365 US model power supply.

As far as starter sets go, they usually are a pretty good value and if you find you like one that suits your ERA, why not go for it. There is also the forthcoming 29000 set, MS2 and R2 track oval set which looks to be a really good deal.
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Offline dennisb  
#3 Posted : 31 January 2016 23:33:22(UTC)
dennisb

Sweden   
Joined: 21/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 217
Location: Kronoberg
Hi!

I think that one of the least expensive but still expandable system you can get is:
- MS2 with a track box for power (or why not the new 29000 that will give you some tracks as well)

Then of course you add the tracks you need. Any start set with an MS2 will do as well of course.

When you want to go digital check out the DcB Cc-Schnitte at http://www.can-digital-b...ys3&modul=54#Mod_Top
There you have a great and cheap usb interface. Then you just att the other modules as your system grows. I use the cc-schnitte together with a CS2 and DcB Startpunkte and a few Gleisreporter Deluxe for feedback. Works great.

I don't know what easiest, getting a 230->110v transformer or 110v power supplies.

Good luck!
Dennis
Offline baggio  
#4 Posted : 01 February 2016 01:14:14(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Hi, Minok:

Preliminary questions:

1. Is US $1,000.00 a fair bit of money for you to shell out all at once?

2. How good are you with complicated computers, like the CSXXX?

3. How sure are you that you want to go forward with this hobby, considering you have not even started?


The above q's are meant to guide you toward your next step and save you a lot of money and/or aggravation.


My two cents' worth:

a. Forget the CSXXX for now: it's really only needed by well-advanced users for very sophisticated layouts;

b. Get a starter set with an MS2 that basically does all you need to (or an MS1 if you can get it cheap);
-- in this respect, a wireless starter set would also do you well, at least at the beginning, and starter sets with this unit are quite economical (but they have at least one quirk that would need to be fixed: automatic shutoff);

c. Play with the trains for one year or so before you spend a lot of money and test out what you REALLY want and LIKE. After that time frame, you will know for yourself how far you want to progress in this hobby and how much you want/need to spend. Remember, once the money is spent, you are not likely to get much back if you decide to sell your gear; and

d. Track is relatively cheap, turnouts are not, especially if you want them to be controlled by the MS2 (the MS1 and the wireless controllers do not have the ability to control turnouts).

HAVE FUN!! BigGrin
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Offline Minok  
#5 Posted : 01 February 2016 03:00:01(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Summarizing what I think I understand from the replies....

1) The 66316 230V switching power supply will function just fine when connected to a 110V main power? (is its output reduced from 36W to only 18W then?)

2) Getting a starter set makes sense (as opposed to buying ala carte parts) IFF the set comes with turnouts & usable power supply (and a train I like) - so can the upcoming 29000 set be used out of the box on 110v US power


3) I'm pretty sure I want to do this hobby. I wanted to as a kid, but didn't have my own money, and as a young adult, I got to play with my uncles setup based on a 6021 control unit, and was still sure I wanted to do this some day but needed to be sure I had the space to set it up. I've already spent $800 in the past week for my starting locos/trains for a 39579 BR 103, and 37703 ICE 1 train, so I'm in.


4) To interface to a computer some day, it appears a CS is needed, or some 3rd party interface - at least as the Marklin System Architecture diagram depicts it. https://www.maerklin.de/...emarchitektur_gesamt.pdf
I assume one cannot do that via a MS2, right? (but that requirement is years away)

5) My intent is to keep the purchases forever, so resale value isn't a factor - in fact reselling Marklin in the US is generally difficult for any reasonable return as I understand it from posts. This is why I want to try and limit purchasing anything I'm not going to make constant use of, when a simple power supply or decoder is $50.


I guess I can price out alacarte the MS2, tracks and the Track Box / Connector Box - that gets me to MS2(75E), 65116 Connector Box (56E), 2 turnouts (25-30E), I'm in for at least 160E ($175) plus simple track and some shipping. Starter sets with the MS2 and similar track are around $250-350, but come with trains... but not ones I want, or trains I could use but not the MS2. So it seems I'd be just as well off ala-carting it rather than starter set given the starter set will have stuff I really won't end up using (locomotivs or a hand held controller).
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 01 February 2016 08:03:25(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
1) The 66316 230V switching power supply will function just fine when connected to a 110V main power? (is its output reduced from 36W to only 18W then?)
No. Please see these threads:
https://www.marklin-user...2-starter-set#post500410
https://www.marklin-user...ile-Station-2#post438622
https://www.marklin-user...--electricity#post489012
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#7 Posted : 01 February 2016 19:10:08(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,067
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Summarizing what I think I understand from the replies....

1) The 66316 230V switching power supply will function just fine when connected to a 110V main power? (is its output reduced from 36W to only 18W then?)

2) Getting a starter set makes sense (as opposed to buying ala carte parts) IFF the set comes with turnouts & usable power supply (and a train I like) - so can the upcoming 29000 set be used out of the box on 110v US power



Tom has pointed you at relevant threads containing information, but I'll just add some pointers.

Marklin appear to have 'limited' the places that certain of the switching power supplies are rated for, by saying they are suitable for a single voltage. This is because the 230V ones have European style round 2 pin mains plugs which require an adapter to connect to US style mains outlets. Such an adapter requirement means they are not classed as satisfactory to pass regulations as far as the regulatory authorities are concerned.

Hence they supply a unit labelled 110V with a USA style plug and this is then satisfactory for the regulatory authorities.

However the electronics inside both power supplies is identical. Modern switch mode power supplies are easily made that will cover the full voltage range of domestic mains supplies throughout the world without any adjustment or settings being required.

Hence provided you can make a safe connection to the power supply that comes with an ms2 (note that these are the 'wall wart' style) then you can use this. But providing a safe connection is the difficult part. The higher wattage transformers used for the cs2/3 have a seperate power cord so you can cut off the European plug and fit a USA plug, so making a safe connection is relatively easy. But it is the 'wall wart' style supplied with the ms2 that you need to be careful with.
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Offline Minok  
#8 Posted : 01 February 2016 21:05:34(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post

Marklin appear to have 'limited' the places that certain of the switching power supplies are rated for, by saying they are suitable for a single voltage. This is because the 230V ones have European style round 2 pin mains plugs which require an adapter to connect to US style mains outlets. Such an adapter requirement means they are not classed as satisfactory to pass regulations as far as the regulatory authorities are concerned.

Hence they supply a unit labelled 110V with a USA style plug and this is then satisfactory for the regulatory authorities.

However the electronics inside both power supplies is identical. Modern switch mode power supplies are easily made that will cover the full voltage range of domestic mains supplies throughout the world without any adjustment or settings being required.

Hence provided you can make a safe connection to the power supply that comes with an ms2 (note that these are the 'wall wart' style) then you can use this. But providing a safe connection is the difficult part. The higher wattage transformers used for the cs2/3 have a seperate power cord so you can cut off the European plug and fit a USA plug, so making a safe connection is relatively easy. But it is the 'wall wart' style supplied with the ms2 that you need to be careful with.



Thank you for the feedback.

My initial concern was based on an assumption that the power supplies are built with the least material to make them work, not over-engineered to be a single product except for the physical case/connection. If it was constructed to be the right winding/transformer stage on the mains input side inside the power brick, there might be a problem (or so I had thought) because: 220vAC in, to produce the required output power and current would draw some current on the 220vAC input side, call it x. Now if the same power draw is only able to use 110vAC input, then the current level, in Amps, would need to be 2x. So with the input side transformer built into these power bricks, which steps the voltage down to whatever the internal circuit uses, I figured, if the current running through them is now twice as high, if those copper windings are not thick enough, that winding will heat up significantly with the higher current draw needed or the lower voltage. But apparently that has been designed into the power brick, as you and the other posts indicate - that the design is such that it runs at 110vAC and from 220vAC it would just draw half the current (approx) that is needed for the same output and maybe run a bit cooler.


I thought about all of the ways they could have designed these power supplies better to address the physical plug issue, such as how laptop power supplies are made with a separate input side chord that has the two mains-conductors in an simple side-by-side arrangement [(o)(o)] like you see on electric shavers and other appliances. But the 'toy classification' and that children will play with this is surely why any such removable 'mains power' side component (be it a swappable plug adapter, or a swappable input chord like laptop power supplies can have) would not be allowed. An irresponsible person or child could remove such a part, and given the other wires and plugs that are part of these train sets, without too much effort, insert one of those into that plug connection and cause a hazard. Granted they could also plug wires into the mains outlets in the wall, but as is the case in these things, thats where the product safety standers allows some risk.

UserPostedImage

As it is, an adapter (easily obtainable) is the simple solution. What I may do, as I'll be setting up more of these eventually, I suspect, is to purchase a German powerstrip, and then replace the mains plug on the end of that one to be a US 3 prong, to produce a power strip that has output Schuko plugs as they have on the walls in Germany, and then have some extra plug-in ports for future use for other power supplies.

Kopp 127315012 UNOversal 6-fach Steckdosenleiste
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline kiwiAlan  
#9 Posted : 02 February 2016 13:08:50(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,067
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post

Thank you for the feedback.


You're welcome. This is a mutual help forum.BigGrin

Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post

My initial concern was based on an assumption that the power supplies are built with the least material to make them work, not over-engineered to be a single product except for the physical case/connection. If it was constructed to be the right winding/transformer stage on the mains input side inside the power brick, there might be a problem (or so I had thought) because: 220vAC in, to produce the required output power and current would draw some current on the 220vAC input side, call it x. Now if the same power draw is only able to use 110vAC input, then the current level, in Amps, would need to be 2x. So with the input side transformer built into these power bricks, which steps the voltage down to whatever the internal circuit uses, I figured, if the current running through them is now twice as high, if those copper windings are not thick enough, that winding will heat up significantly with the higher current draw needed or the lower voltage. But apparently that has been designed into the power brick, as you and the other posts indicate - that the design is such that it runs at 110vAC and from 220vAC it would just draw half the current (approx) that is needed for the same output and maybe run a bit cooler.


Your assumptions about power draw are correct, when averaged over a suitable time span. However switch mode power supplies do some sneaky tricks well known to those experienced with electronics to switch the full power off and on at a suitably fast rate, and vary the duty cycle of the switching according to the input voltage and output load. They also do this with good efficiency because it is done at a high frequency (typically somewhere between 50kHz and some MHz) which allows the isolation transformer to be very small. This is why switchmode supplies are so light compared to ones using a 50/60Hz transformer that has a lot of iron in it.

Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post

I thought about all of the ways they could have designed these power supplies better to address the physical plug issue, such as how laptop power supplies are made with a separate input side chord that has the two mains-conductors in an simple side-by-side arrangement [(o)(o)] like you see on electric shavers and other appliances.

The style of plug you describe is often called a 'figure 8' plug for obvious reasons. Most devices now use the 3 pin version you pictured so that an earth connection can also be made.

Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post

As it is, an adapter (easily obtainable) is the simple solution. What I may do, as I'll be setting up more of these eventually, I suspect, is to purchase a German powerstrip, and then replace the mains plug on the end of that one to be a US 3 prong, to produce a power strip that has output Schuko plugs as they have on the walls in Germany, and then have some extra plug-in ports for future use for other power supplies.

Kopp 127315012 UNOversal 6-fach Steckdosenleiste


Just be a little careful with an adapter like that if you wish to use an ms2 power supply. Check the pictures as the pins of the 'wall wart' supplies are often in line along the long length of the unit, so an adjacent socket may be unavailable, or you may need to use an end socket for it. But otherwise using a power strip like that will be a good way of making a safe connection to the power supply.


Offline Minok  
#10 Posted : 02 February 2016 22:21:29(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Understood. Trickery aside, the basic principles of electrical engineering still apply, which allow you to treat the power supply as a box with two AC input wires from the mains and 2 output DC wires out, which does result in a doubling of the input current to produce the same DC output from the 1/2 the input voltage... but as you stated, with the input side transformers being made very small, using one that works safely with 100vAC input is not very expensive vs having two version (one for 100v in and one for 240v in).. and so you just build the one that works on 100v in safely and put a different housing on it and different certification stickers and off you go. Benefit for us.


Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post

Just be a little careful with an adapter like that if you wish to use an ms2 power supply. Check the pictures as the pins of the 'wall wart' supplies are often in line along the long length of the unit, so an adjacent socket may be unavailable, or you may need to use an end socket for it. But otherwise using a power strip like that will be a good way of making a safe connection to the power supply.


On the direction of wall-warts, yes I was all over that problem. Many german power strips have the plugs at a 45 deg angle rotation, to make building them easier (as it puts the two internal conductors of hot and neutral out of colinear), which would not work with wall warts because a wart would block adjacent plugs most certainly. I had to look for the strip that was aligned this way, based on a photo of the MobileStation power supply 66361:

UserPostedImage

If due to the overhang on the sides, it does block an adjacent outlet, I'll put it at one end and at least have some spares... its not like there will be a huge demand for Schuko outlets. I could shop for a german version of wall-wart friendly power strips but was OK with this one.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline kiwiAlan  
#11 Posted : 02 February 2016 22:54:12(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,067
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post

If due to the overhang on the sides, it does block an adjacent outlet, I'll put it at one end and at least have some spares... its not like there will be a huge demand for Schuko outlets. I could shop for a german version of wall-wart friendly power strips but was OK with this one.


OK, so you are on top of that. I couldn't remember the exact arrangement of the pins on the power unit. Looks good.



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