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Offline Goofy  
#1 Posted : 25 January 2016 19:08:02(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
I wonder if anyone of you do see difference by use turnout decoder in function?
And i mean about quality.
60830 VS 60831

Did Märklin better work by create to new m83 decoder?
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Mark5  
#2 Posted : 26 January 2016 05:57:11(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
m83 allows for external power supply... but I am still wondering if the recommended power supplies really power the turnout motor and if the amps are enough to do so... as mentioned in a previous thread. Also seems there is easy access to the dipswitchs but that doesn't make a difference in terms of actual functionality, just ease of setup.
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
Offline clapcott  
#3 Posted : 26 January 2016 06:39:15(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
... Did Märklin better work by create to new m83 decoder?

imho .... No

Peter
Offline thomasm  
#4 Posted : 26 January 2016 09:48:40(UTC)
thomasm

Norway   
Joined: 14/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 78
I'm somewhat confused with the m83 vs k83, my local dealer have the following info about the m83: A 60821 accessory set per output is required for turnouts with turnout motors. And as far as i know, this is cut'n paste directly from M* homepage. Does it mean that Im not able to use my old turnout motors with the m83? Or am I missing something?

.thomas
Märklinist, hobbyist and collector. || Trains are meant to be driven.
Offline sjlauritsen  
#5 Posted : 26 January 2016 10:20:19(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: thomasm Go to Quoted Post
I'm somewhat confused with the m83 vs k83, my local dealer have the following info about the m83: A 60821 accessory set per output is required for turnouts with turnout motors. And as far as i know, this is cut'n paste directly from M* homepage. Does it mean that Im not able to use my old turnout motors with the m83? Or am I missing something?

It means that the accessory set is required for points with real motors. Märklins "motors" are solenoid accessories, and they do not require the accessory set.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
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H0
Offline sjlauritsen  
#6 Posted : 26 January 2016 10:31:54(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Did Märklin better work by create to new m83 decoder?

Besides solenoid accessories. The m83 can also control lighting (streetlights, platform, houses etc.). You can program each output to use several effects like neon, flash etc. You can combine the use of the m83 for both solenoid accessories and lighting. It supports an external power source (through the 60822) and can be connected with other m83's or m84's in a row to utilize the same power source.

I find these features usefull. Other people clearly do not, but it is a matter of personal taste.

If you are the person, who just uses MM, just need a decoder for your solenoid accessories, then the k83 is just fine. If you want to explore more than that, or use DCC and want something from Märklin, the m83 is a great decoder.

There are other solenoid decoders out there, some are also cheaper, so there is that to consider as well.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
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Offline thomasm  
#7 Posted : 26 January 2016 11:13:41(UTC)
thomasm

Norway   
Joined: 14/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 78
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post

It means that the accessory set is required for points with real motors. Märklins "motors" are solenoid accessories, and they do not require the accessory set.


Thanks for the clarification.

.thomas

Märklinist, hobbyist and collector. || Trains are meant to be driven.
Offline clapcott  
#8 Posted : 27 January 2016 01:43:23(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post

I find these features usefull. Other people clearly do not, but it is a matter of personal taste.

I read Goofys query to relate to the "turnout decoder" differences.

In my book a, so called, replacement product must at least offer the same functions as its predecessor. Here, the m83 falls short of the k83 in my opinion
(note: I appreciate there is precedence for this e.g. the CS1 came out originally without S88 abilities and subsequently the CS3+ in the same S88 implementation )

Providing new features within the same box also makes it more expensive and, to some, an unnecessary distraction if all you want is a turnout decoder.
If you want to bring the non-turnout aspects into the equation, then providing features that cannot be realistically controlled actually adds negative weight to the comparison.
.
Peter
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Offline Mark5  
#9 Posted : 27 January 2016 02:20:25(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Hello Peter and Søren, What would be meant by "realistically controlled"? Are the extra features for lights, for example, difficult to implement? What controllers would be needed to access the other m83 features? As I have several m83s yet to actually try out, it would be good to know for practical purposes what the limitations are and what I can actually do with it.
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

If you want to bring the non-turnout aspects into the equation, then providing features that cannot be realistically controlled actually adds negative weight to the comparison.
.


DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
Offline clapcott  
#10 Posted : 27 January 2016 04:02:48(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
... What would be meant by "realistically controlled"?
The current device allow each port to be configured for a particular function. (for a turnout this may be a pulse of one of two types)

However there is no way to specifically turn the function on, or specifically turn it off (without removing power).
It may only be "toggled" and as such needs a human eye to detect the current state and to pulse once if the other state is desired.

This also means that the controller has no means to "display" which state the port is in.

Quote:
Are the extra features for lights, for example, difficult to implement?
"difficulty" is subjective - it could have been a lot better

To set up the advanced functions of a port you will need a controller that is capable of operating in DCC and able to write to CVs

Quote:
What controllers would be needed to access the other m83 features?

Once setup the unit may be operated in any format and with an address within the range of the controller
Peter
Offline Mark5  
#11 Posted : 27 January 2016 05:08:26(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Ok Peter,
It seems like you are saying its almost like a fancy analog momentary pulse switch. Unsure
So lets say I use them in connection with s88 feedback modules. Would I not be able to have a train come in a feedback "block" (not isolated block, only to trigger the s88) to change a signal/switch or light? Or trigger braking delay .... I would eventually like to do this with computer control, but not knowing/verifying by computer the states they are in could make that difficult, but possible as long as it was set the right way from the outset...?? Confused I am sure to be showing my ignorance here, because I speak from conjecture by way of experience with analog and reed switches. And why can the controller not use MM, instead of DCC, like the 6021? I suppose I could use/borrow a DCC controller only for setup, but is that absolutely necessary?
- Mark

Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
... What would be meant by "realistically controlled"?
The current device allow each port to be configured for a particular function. (for a turnout this may be a pulse of one of two types)

However there is no way to specifically turn the function on, or specifically turn it off (without removing power).
It may only be "toggled" and as such needs a human eye to detect the current state and to pulse once if the other state is desired.

This also means that the controller has no means to "display" which state the port is in.

Quote:
Are the extra features for lights, for example, difficult to implement?
"difficulty" is subjective - it could have been a lot better

To set up the advanced functions of a port you will need a controller that is capable of operating in DCC and able to write to CVs

Quote:
What controllers would be needed to access the other m83 features?

Once setup the unit may be operated in any format and with an address within the range of the controller
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
Offline clapcott  
#12 Posted : 27 January 2016 05:53:53(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
It is important to distinguish
- the old (legacy k83) mode of operation for turnout/signals
v
- the alternative use of the ports for the newer advanced functions.


For turnouts/signals you would need BOTH a green and red (assuming 2 aspect only at this stage) so there is no toggle consideration to be worried about.
In this case pressing the Green button a second time will have no effect as the turnout/signal has already switched.

However for the new functions that allow for various light type flashing/behavior the ports are used individually
If you defined, say port 3 Red, as a MARS flasher, then pressing 3Red once will turn it on, pressing it again will turn it off


Peter
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