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Offline rshimada  
#1 Posted : 14 November 2015 03:40:34(UTC)
rshimada

United States   
Joined: 06/11/2015(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: Minnesota, Minneapolis
I need to find a 120 volt power supply for a Mobile Station 2 to run some H0 trains.

The Märklin power supplies are 30 or 36 watt. 18 volt 40 watt power supplies are common enough and are much less expensive than Märklin's.

Will I fry anything using 40 watts for a Mobile Station 2 in H0?

(Yes, I started a similar topic which hasn't answered this question.)
Offline hgk  
#2 Posted : 14 November 2015 04:43:06(UTC)
hgk


Joined: 10/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 455
Location: Pacific Ocean
I think the information you need can be found here. Note that it's for central station not mobile station.
-George
Offline baggio  
#3 Posted : 14 November 2015 05:20:03(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Frankly, I don't understand why you started a second thread for the same question.

The impression I get is that you are bent on buying a cheap power supply to put on an expensive unit (the MS2), no matter what everyone (myself included) has told you.

So, go ahead and do it. If the MS2 does not work properly, you will only have yourself to blame.

You have been warned NOT to do it, but no-one here can be 100 % sure you are making a mistake. Odds are you are, however.

Is saving a few dollars REALLY worth the aggravation?

Contact Westend Trains in Toronto and Mike will give you the right advice, which will be (I expect) NOT to substitute the power supply and use a transformer: Westend Trains - Toronto

Let us know what you end up doing.

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by baggio
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 14 November 2015 08:07:31(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: rshimada Go to Quoted Post
Will I fry anything using 40 watts for a Mobile Station 2 in H0?
The only possible answer to such a detailed question is: "Definitely maybe!"

There were starter sets with MS1 and 60 VA transformers. Theoretically a stronger power supply does not do any harm, nor does it do any good.

One aspect is the overload protection of the power supply. This is where risks might start. Do not use power supplies made for industrial or special appliances.

IMHO the 18 V used by Märklin are a compromise that also allows using the MS2 with N gauge layouts, but this gives a track voltage at the lower end for three-rail H0 layouts. An adjustable generic power supply that also supports 20 V and 22 V can be useful if you have problems with smoke generators that do not give enough smoke.

The MS2 can be used with 16 V AC (Märklin transformers) and 18 through 22 V DC.

Any power supply not endorsed by Märklin will void the warranty.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline rshimada  
#5 Posted : 17 November 2015 04:42:39(UTC)
rshimada

United States   
Joined: 06/11/2015(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: Minnesota, Minneapolis
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Frankly, I don't understand why you started a second thread for the same question.

The impression I get is that you are bent on buying a cheap power supply to put on an expensive unit (the MS2), no matter what everyone (myself included) has told you.


Please review the other thread and tell me where anyone has addressed the maximum power question.

I have been wondering about an international $16 40 watt power supply at http://www.digikey.com/product-...S18/1470-2319-ND/4488698. There are a number of international 18 volt power supplies with up to 60 watts power with a plug for a 60113 track box on that site, none of which are as expensive as a Märklin.

DC power supplies are commodities. I'm surrounded by them.

A couple of points so far in the other thread:
  • Steger produces a power supply for with the same specs Märklin and Roco
  • The 66361 seems to work on 120 volts


There is a small legal point. The Digital manual included with the set says:

Important Note:
The digital connector box may only be connected to the power pack include with the set. The use of other power packs or transformers is not authorized!


So I might was well use the included 230 volt power supply.

I'm beginning to think that the real question is how power can the 60113 take.
Offline rshimada  
#6 Posted : 17 November 2015 04:46:06(UTC)
rshimada

United States   
Joined: 06/11/2015(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: Minnesota, Minneapolis
Originally Posted by: hgk Go to Quoted Post
I think the information you need can be found here. Note that it's for central station not mobile station.
-George


It does have some interesting data.

I'm thinking I've screwed up the topic again. Since it's the track box that gets the power in an MS 2 starter set, the question is probably "how much power can a 60113 take?"

Offline rshimada  
#7 Posted : 17 November 2015 04:59:06(UTC)
rshimada

United States   
Joined: 06/11/2015(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: Minnesota, Minneapolis
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: rshimada Go to Quoted Post
Will I fry anything using 40 watts for a Mobile Station 2 in H0?
The only possible answer to such a detailed question is: "Definitely maybe!"

There were starter sets with MS1 and 60 VA transformers. Theoretically a stronger power supply does not do any harm, nor does it do any good.

One aspect is the overload protection of the power supply. This is where risks might start. Do not use power supplies made for industrial or special appliances.

IMHO the 18 V used by Märklin are a compromise that also allows using the MS2 with N gauge layouts, but this gives a track voltage at the lower end for three-rail H0 layouts. An adjustable generic power supply that also supports 20 V and 22 V can be useful if you have problems with smoke generators that do not give enough smoke.

The MS2 can be used with 16 V AC (Märklin transformers) and 18 through 22 V DC.

Any power supply not endorsed by Märklin will void the warranty.


40 VA is about 11% more than the 36 VA of a 66361, so yes - "Definiately maybe!"

For any digital equipment I would be using a switched regulated power supply.

As I recall, the MS1 also had it's ugly built in track connector, so likely had different specifications since it was H0 only.

The 18 V is a pretty big number for US HO. I looked around a little and 15 V power supplies for DCC seem to be common here.

Definitely interesting things to be aware of...you packed a lot of history in that post.

Thanks!

Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 17 November 2015 08:39:37(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: rshimada Go to Quoted Post
40 VA is about 11% more than the 36 VA of a 66361, so yes - "Definiately maybe!"
You cannot calculate the surplus. A light bulb takes about 2 watts. You can connect it to a 10 VA transformer, a 16 VA transformer, a 30 or 32 VA transformer, a 60 VA transformer. The current is limited by the light bulb.
Similarly the track box cannot draw more than it needs under normal operation.
The only reason for the "maybe" is the overload protection. I used universal power supplies and laptop power supplies with my MS1 without any problems.
Theoretically the controller will detect a short circuit on the layout and will switch off - much quicker than the power supply.
If the power supply is quicker than the controller, then you will have a problem.
If the power supply is too weak for the controller, then you may get a problem.

A 60113 with two MS2 can handle up to 1.9 A track power and will need about 2.0 A input at full load. The 66365 with 30 VA at 18 V comes with only 1.67 A.
Theoretically there could be problem, but I don't recall any reports about actual problems with that combination when running several trains at the same time.

Originally Posted by: rshimada Go to Quoted Post
As I recall, the MS1 also had it's ugly built in track connector, so likely had different specifications since it was H0 only.
There also was the box 60115 for use with K track and the 60111 for use with gauge I.
The "ugly box" contains a bridge rectifier and a capacitor, nothing else. The 60113 contains a lot of "bird seed" and creates the track signal.

Originally Posted by: rshimada Go to Quoted Post
The 18 V is a pretty big number for US HO. I looked around a little and 15 V power supplies for DCC seem to be common here.
You have to look at the track voltage. There is a bridge rectifier inside the connection box that "eats" about 1 volt. Devices that can take DC only will have a smaller voltage drop inside. The CS2 uses 19 V and it has a DC input that passes the rectifier by - you need at least 20 V for the MS2 to get the same track voltage a CS2 gives with a 19 V DC power supply.
One advantage of using universal power supplies: you can start with a voltage at the lower end and increase voltage if you encounter problems.

When Märklin went digital they used 16 V AC to feed the controllers which lead to about 22 V track voltage. You need a 24 V DC power supply to get such a high track voltage.
With three-rail H0 track voltage is traditionally higher than with two-rail H0.

Motors will last longer with lower track voltages - but smoke generators may fail to smoke and some sound decoders may sound odd.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 17 November 2015 08:42:26(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: hgk Go to Quoted Post
I think the information you need can be found here. Note that it's for central station not mobile station.
Also note that it is for Central Station, not Central Station 2.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline GlennM  
#10 Posted : 17 November 2015 10:56:56(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,877
Location: Somewhere, But Nowhere Near Manchester, England
I am afraid I am with Baggio on this one.

Don't look back, your not heading that way.
Offline rshimada  
#11 Posted : 22 November 2015 22:22:40(UTC)
rshimada

United States   
Joined: 06/11/2015(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: Minnesota, Minneapolis
Summary: The asking about the power for a Mobile Station 2 isn't important. What supplies power to the MS 2 is.

A Mobile Station 2 gets its power from a track box or Central Station, but does not supply track power unlike Mobile Station 1. I should asked about the 60113 track box.

Eventually I found https://www.marklin-users.net/fo...transformer-for-MS2.aspx which asks much the same question that I did, where Tom had again made some quite useful comments. The most interesting thing about that thread was using AC power supplies for the 60113.

That's right, use of 16 volt AC 52 VA and 60 VA power supplies for a 60113. As Tom pointed out, a 60113 is unlikely to draw more than 2 amps (36 VA at 18 volts).

It seems that answer to my question is: An 18 volt DC 40 VA power supply should not be a problem for a 60113.
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