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Offline oranda  
#1 Posted : 10 November 2015 11:28:11(UTC)
oranda

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: ENGLAND
Hi

I have a Märklin 29539 H0 Digital-Start-Set freight train DB, with a BR 81 locomotive. The supplied card is I am assuming, is programmed with properties of the 'real' locomotive?

I have the card plugged into the mobile station hand controller, but in use I don't detect any real difference in the performance/speed of the loco.

I can run the loco at slow speeds and at very high speeds. High speeds which I don't think would be attainable in the real world - in other words far too fast.

How do I find out more information about how the card and the controller work, and if it is programmed correctly or for that matter at all?



Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 10 November 2015 11:44:15(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

The loco card only stores information about the model (address and function symbols, name), but nothing about the prototype.

For prototypical speed you need a speedmeter and adjust Vmax yourself.

The card only registers the loco with the MS2. Card in or out makes no difference once the loco is registered.
You can plug the card in at any time to select the loco. But this can also be done from the loco list without using the card.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline oranda  
#3 Posted : 10 November 2015 12:14:34(UTC)
oranda

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: ENGLAND
I thought I saw somewhere that the card had somewhere in it the maximum speed?

If not my purchase of the central station comes a bit closer...

So presumably the card has info on whether to switch on light and sound effects?

Also can someone clarify for me - what does the turtle/tortoise do - opposite the light on off indicator on the mobile station 2?
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 10 November 2015 13:13:14(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: oranda Go to Quoted Post
Also can someone clarify for me - what does the turtle/tortoise do - opposite the light on off indicator on the mobile station 2?
Typically it turn acceleration and braking delay off. With some Märklin locos it also reduced the maximum speed.
See the loco manual, it explains the functions of the loco.

Originally Posted by: oranda Go to Quoted Post
I thought I saw somewhere that the card had somewhere in it the maximum speed?
The maximum speed is set in the decoder.

Originally Posted by: oranda Go to Quoted Post
If not my purchase of the central station comes a bit closer...
If you want to run trains with prototypical speeds with a CS2, you still need a speedmeter and you still have to set the maximum speed in the decoder.
The CS2 does not make this better than the MS2.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline clapcott  
#5 Posted : 10 November 2015 19:46:48(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: oranda Go to Quoted Post
Also can someone clarify for me - what does the turtle/tortoise do - opposite the light on off indicator on the mobile station 2?
Typically it turn acceleration and braking delay off. With some Märklin locos it also reduced the maximum speed.
See the loco manual, it explains the functions of the loco.


I do not believe the Tortoise is for ABS.

UserPostedImageUserPostedImageWith the CS2 it is the "Weight" icon that is associated with the function of inertia (disable ABS = acceleration/deceleration)
UserPostedImageUserPostedImageIn the MS1, for example, the icon is a curved graph (representing the speed curve) with a diagonal slash through it.
Note: the image shown is not from the CS2 icon library

UserPostedImageUserPostedImageThe Tortoise is a separate function to represent shunting (Rangiergang) mode where all speeds are halved 50%, the default.
With later decoders, this 50% factor is indicated by a CV with a value of 128 - which may be altered

The mLD3 documentation offers the following in the usual unnecessarily over-structured way
Shunting
In CV 145 can be set how much the speed
should be reduced by shunting.
Bit 7 is a reduced to 1/2 (to half the speed level)
6 is a bit reduced to 1/4
Bit 5 to be reduced to 1/8
Bit 4 to be reduced to 1/16
Bit 3 to be reduced to 1/32
Bit 2 to be reduced to 1/64
Bit 1 to be reduced to 1/128


Why don't the just say the range is 0 to 255 with 255 being 100% , and offer examples
128 = half
64 = quarter
....
Peter
Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 11 November 2015 07:48:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
I do not believe the Tortoise is for ABS.
Absolutely correct, it is for ABV and/or shunting mode.
The CS2 has two different symbols for ABV and one for shunting mode. AFAIK all three are mapped to a single symbol on the MS2: the tortoise.

Cars have ABS. Märklin locos have ABV (ABD in English) and/or shunting mode - sometimes coupled, sometimes separately controllable.
If you have two different function keys with different symbols for ABV and shunting mode on the CS2 and transfer the loco to the MS2, you will get two tortoises there.

The CS2 also has many different symbols for various sounds - when transferring the loco to the MS2, they will all be represent by a generic speaker symbol.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline mbarreto  
#7 Posted : 11 November 2015 10:24:54(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257

I think M* should change the turtle symbol to a crocodile symbol. Off course those differences could be to have the head turned to the right and turned to the left, and for shunting the tail up as it offers more wind drag. LOL

M* should provide a course with graduate level for operate their systems LOL
Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline baggio  
#8 Posted : 13 November 2015 05:34:39(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
M* should provide a course with graduate level for operate their systems LOL

YES! Where do I sign up? Love
Offline RayF  
#9 Posted : 13 November 2015 09:50:42(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
You hardly need a course to operate a MS2!

I would agree that a CS2 is probably complicated enough that you need extensive instructions to get the full use out of it, but I had no trouble figuring out how to use my MS2 when I got it, and I'm not the best with the latest technology!

I am more concerned that the original poster was not very familiar with the basics of digital operation, such as programming a decoder. Maybe every starter set should include a simple handbook on digital operation. I'm pretty sure there was something like that in mine.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline baggio  
#10 Posted : 13 November 2015 19:20:09(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Speak for yourself, Ray! BigGrin

Speaking for myself, one of the problems I found with the instruction booklets is that they confuse you as much as they inform you.

The booklet for the Roco Multimaus made it hard to even change the language from German to English. The English version did not give you a screen shot with the German display, so that I could not understand the menu. Eventually, going as a blind man, I was able to change the menu. I cringe at the thought of actually registering a new digital loco (the two I have came already registered with the start set).

The Marklin instructions for the MS1 at least made that the first topic and was easy to change the language. For the rest.... Poor Mike went well above the call of duty to help me out with that.

A book of instructions with plenty of screen shots would be welcome at an economical price. A YouTube video tutorial even better.

Anyone interested in putting the manual together? I am NOT kidding.
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 13 November 2015 19:39:31(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Anyone interested in putting the manual together? I am NOT kidding.
Last month that idea came up in another thread, see post #7:
https://www.marklin-user...rklin-Digital#post498793

I am willing to contribute, but currently I do not intent to play the leading role.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline baggio  
#12 Posted : 13 November 2015 21:58:33(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Thank you for the offer, HO, much appreciated. ThumpUp

Perhaps the task need not be so daunting and time-consuming as one may think.

What level of expertise the readers of the GUIDE would have? Not much, or they would not need the guide.

As a result, one could FIRST create a SIMPLE table of contents of the guide.

Each chapter would be dedicated to explaining ONE essential step that a new user would need to be familiar with in order to START using and enjoying the control system (MS2 or Multimaus).

For example:


Chapter one: How to hook up the controller (again MS2 or Multimaus).

Chapter two: The major buttons of a controller.

Chapter three: How to change the language from German to English.

Chapter four: How to control a locomotive already connected to the controller (as in a start set).

Chapter five: How to add a new locomotive.

Chapter six: How to change the address of a locomotive.

What do you think the next chapter should be?

Did I forget other steps before reaching chapter five?

Any feedback?
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Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 13 November 2015 23:37:31(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
The Multimaus can be used in two modes: address mode or database mode. So that would lead to chapter 5a and 5b.

With the MS2 there are several ways of adding new locos (mfx, loco card, from database, MM manually, DCC manually).
Many different ways for different decoders. Would that give us 5a, 5b, 5c, 5d, 5e?
To keep it simple, there could be a beginner's guide that deals with locos from the last five years only, while older locos are covered in later chapters.

With MS2 and Multimaus it is difficult to take screenshots. Screenshots won't look good in PDF and will look bad in a printed PDF (if the user prints the manual).
A different approach could be:
Chapter one: Vital information missing in the manual (e.g. changing UI to English)
Chapter two: A guide to the official manual (which chapters are good, which chapters need further explanation)
Chapter three et al: Information missing or misleading in the manual
Appendix: various How To guides with step by step information

It is easy to take CS2 screen shots with a PC connected to the CS2. They may look bad when printed on monochrome printers.

Maybe I know to much and consider the special cases right from the start.
Let recent beginners tell which hurdles they had to take to get the MS2 running. I'm afraid there are not many Multimaus users on this forum.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline oranda  
#14 Posted : 14 November 2015 00:34:21(UTC)
oranda

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: ENGLAND
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
You hardly need a course to operate a MS2!

I would agree that a CS2 is probably complicated enough that you need extensive instructions to get the full use out of it, but I had no trouble figuring out how to use my MS2 when I got it, and I'm not the best with the latest technology!

I am more concerned that the original poster was not very familiar with the basics of digital operation, such as programming a decoder. Maybe every starter set should include a simple handbook on digital operation. I'm pretty sure there was something like that in mine.


Why would I want to configure a decoder when I've already paid good money to Märklin for the features that I want? Otherwise I'd buy an old second hand loco on eBay and convert it to digital!

My gripe is that many of the features of Märklin hardware and software might be known by long time users, (like you?), but to someone like me who has only had a rail layout, let alone a Märklin digital system for the past couple of years, it is less than accessible. Documentation is arcane and dry lacking new user support, and when Märklin document and sell publications for this, it is poorly translated and very expensive! I know I bought one! What's more the book I purchased - 'Controlling Switching Running' directly from Märklin Germany, was not up to date and referred to equipment that isn't sold toady by any retail outlet!

My starter sets had very basic instruction which illustrated two wires going to the underside of the track. Which was fine to get the loco spinning around the track. A There wasn't a 'read this first' sheet stating that the locos I had were assigned a default number / address I had to go into another small booklet to find that information and what other features were built into the loco.

... and finally as someone living in England, there are very few HO layouts and fewer Märklin layouts,let alone users of digital system, so that why I asked the questions that I did.

Thanks for your reply, and that isn't meant sarcastically.
Offline baggio  
#15 Posted : 14 November 2015 01:43:14(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Whichever format it takes, what is needed, I think, is a simple "how to" guide for the more basic functions of the controller.

Both Marklin and Roco should take some leadership in doing this, but if they don't, perhaps we can pick up the slack.

The six "chapters" I suggested could be a starting point, even if simply as an appendix.

Our Toronto Model Trains Fun Club could be willing to pay an "honorarium" in order to have this project go ahead. If interested, please send me a pm.

Thanks.
Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 14 November 2015 08:15:45(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: oranda Go to Quoted Post
My gripe is that many of the features of Märklin hardware and software might be known by long time users
In my experience Märklin products usually are good engineering with bad documentation. It takes information from fora and a lot "trial and error" to fully exploit such products.
It's even more difficult if you cannot read German.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline oranda  
#17 Posted : 14 November 2015 08:35:43(UTC)
oranda

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: ENGLAND
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Thank you for the offer, HO, much appreciated. ThumpUp

Perhaps the task need not be so daunting and time-consuming as one may think.

What level of expertise the readers of the GUIDE would have? Not much, or they would not need the guide.

As a result, one could FIRST create a SIMPLE table of contents of the guide.

Each chapter would be dedicated to explaining ONE essential step that a new user would need to be familiar with in order to START using and enjoying the control system (MS2 or Multimaus).

For example:


Chapter one: How to hook up the controller (again MS2 or Multimaus).

Chapter two: The major buttons of a controller.
and menus
Quote:

Chapter three: How to change the language from German to English.

Chapter four: How to control a locomotive already connected to the controller (as in a start set).

Chapter five: How to add a new locomotive.
with and without card
Quote:


Chapter six: How to change the address of a locomotive.

What do you think the next chapter should be?

Did I forget other steps before reaching chapter five?

Any feedback?



Chapter 7 - points - controlling them - upgrading from manual to fully digital- red = turn - green = straight ahead

Chapter x - planning and staged conversion towards an upgraded layout that can be automated including

Chapter y - migrating from a mobile station to a central station controlled layout - automation

Chapter z - moving towards a computer controlled layout


I add the last three suggested chapters as I'm interested to know how, and I'm sure it would be the question asked by anyone looking at some major (club) layout that has given them the inspiration to give this hobby a try.

BTW whats a multimaus - perhaps a need for a glossary chapter is also needed?
Offline baggio  
#18 Posted : 14 November 2015 15:36:55(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Your suggestions are great, Oranda, but clearly what you are looking for is NOT for a simple first-time user like me.

A Multimaus is Roco's equivalent of the MS2 and, alas, just as complicated.Sad
Offline oranda  
#19 Posted : 14 November 2015 19:31:12(UTC)
oranda

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: ENGLAND
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Your suggestions are great, Oranda, but clearly what you are looking for is NOT for a simple first-time user like me.

A Multimaus is Roco's equivalent of the MS2 and, alas, just as complicated.Sad


Thanks for that I'll look it up...

Incidentally:

I would read a first time user guide as I'm still not sure what I don't know.

But also as a new time user I want to find out about Märklins' latest digital offerings and how they fit together, and not from the earliest/er digital systems.
Offline RayF  
#20 Posted : 14 November 2015 19:53:39(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
It's apparent that there are many different levels of knowledge and experience in digital systems, with some users having never encountered a digital system before.

My MS2 came from a starter set and included a manual for the MS2 as well as a "beginners guide" on using the MS2 for the first time. I had never used one before, having progressed previously from a purely analogue system, then to a Delta system, and then onto a 6021 controller, so I had never encountered such things as "Auto-registration with mfx", "Loco cards", DCC etc.

With the help of the documentation included I had no trouble figuring out the menus, and it was only some obscure details such as the "invisible" storage slots, that I had to ask about on the forum.

However I did have some knowledge of basic digital operation having read about these matters in magazines, train websites, the Marklin catalogues, and of course the most extensive fountain of knowledge, this forum.

Re-reading my previous post it occurs to me that I may have been slightly patronising to a couple of you, for which I apologise. This was not my intention. The beginner's guide I mentioned was quite helpful in answering many of the questions you seem to have trouble with, but no-one has mentioned this. Does it not come in every starter set? If this is the case I can try to scan it and share it here.



Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline baggio  
#21 Posted : 15 November 2015 07:02:52(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Maybe, Ray, you could scan just the first page so we can see if we have it.

Thanks for offering.

BigGrin

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Offline RayF  
#22 Posted : 15 November 2015 19:13:57(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Maybe, Ray, you could scan just the first page so we can see if we have it.

Thanks for offering.

BigGrin



OK will do!

(Now where did I put it?....)
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline RayF  
#23 Posted : 15 November 2015 19:31:39(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
OK, found it!

This is the front page of the booklet.
UserPostedImage

This is the contents page in English:
UserPostedImage

This is one of the pages on setting up the MS2
UserPostedImage

I hope you find it useful. If you like I can scan all the English pages.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by RayF
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