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Offline rshimada  
#1 Posted : 07 November 2015 04:39:02(UTC)
rshimada

United States   
Joined: 06/11/2015(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: Minnesota, Minneapolis
Hi there,

I have collected some Märklin H0 items over the years. I have been waiting for a starter set with a locomotive with reasonable features and ordered a 29290. However the 29290 is only available with 230 volt power and I live in the United States have to use 120 volt power.

Yes, I could just order the 66365 120v power supply but it seems quite overpriced; $44 is the lowest price I found.

The specifications for the 120v and 230v power supplies say the produce 18v and 30 or 36 watts - 1.66 or 2 amps.

30 watt and 40 watt 18 volt international power supplies are readily available. A 40 watt (2.22 amp) unit I saw is $16. (Yes, there are some on eBay for around $5!)

So: For a H0 starter set with a Mobile Station 2 and track box, does anyone think that 40 watts will be a problem?

Since I need to buy a power supply anyway, is there a better recommendation than 18 volts between 30 and 36 watts?

Thanks!






Offline mike187  
#2 Posted : 07 November 2015 05:01:01(UTC)
mike187

United States   
Joined: 19/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 60
Location: nj
http://i.ebayimg.com/ima...AOxycSdR4JsX/s-l1600.jpg

Hi:

I believe the wall wart that comes with the set includes the US adapter. The link above will show an E-bay offering picturing the US adapter.

Regards, Paul
Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 07 November 2015 08:17:56(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: rshimada Go to Quoted Post
[...] and ordered a 29290.
Where did you order it?
When ordering through a US dealer you will probably get the correct power supply. When ordering directly from Europe you probably won't.

Many folks say the wall wart marked for 230 V does work in the US.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline 3rail4life  
#4 Posted : 10 November 2015 05:02:17(UTC)
3rail4life

United States   
Joined: 23/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Northern California
Hi rshimanda,

No need to take any chances with any generic power supplies, just get a US adapter plug and use the 66361 or get a 66365.

They both work fine.

Gordon
Offline baggio  
#5 Posted : 10 November 2015 05:50:59(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
If all the adapter does is modify a European plug to fit into a US outlet, that will NOT work, unless the power pack itself is dual.

I don't think it is or Marklin would supply an adapter (costs about $2 - $4).

You need a transformer that steps up the input so as to accept a 120 volt input from the outlet and turn it into 230 volts.

Westend trains here charges $15.00 for such a unit (at least when you buy a starter set).

When I bought my Roco starter set, the vendor exchanged the 230 power pack for a 120 power pack.

Hope this helps.
Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 10 November 2015 07:54:51(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
I don't think it is or Marklin would supply an adapter (costs about $2 - $4).
Many US citizens claim it works.
It's less secure with adapter. So for maximum security, no adapter should be used. FCC approval could be another issue.
The 120 V versions have "Made in China" printed on the cover, the 230 V also comes from China, but without declaration of origin. It seems Märklin do not want to sell items marked "Made in China" in Europe where such a mark is not required.

I think it does work (as reported in many threads on this site) - but everybody who tries it does it at their own risk.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline baggio  
#7 Posted : 10 November 2015 14:20:34(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
What risk are you thinking of, HO?

I mean, if it works, great; if it doesn't, you buy a transformer for a few dollars more.

Please explain, in case I am tempted NOT to buy a transformer. Thanks.

(100 years ago, when I came to Canada with my parents, we brought our Marklin set. We also brought a heavy transformer that worked very well.)
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 10 November 2015 14:36:01(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
What risk are you thinking of, HO?
The power supply is rated for 230 V only.
When used at 120 V the internal frequency will be much higher and the input current will be much higher than at 230 V.

I cannot say whether it is safe to use it at 120 V at full load.

Many users say it works, even some dealers say so.

Maybe 66361 and 66365 are the same except for the plug, maybe there are differences. I don't know.

IMHO: Try it at your own risk, do not leave it unobserved while plugged in, do not let children use it without adult observation.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline baggio  
#9 Posted : 12 November 2015 07:05:56(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Today, while going over the new Marklin website, I went over a starter set that had a DOUBLE catalogue number, one with a 230 volt power pack (29321) and one with the 120 volt power pack (29322, the one I got last year).

From that I infer that you CANNOT use a 230 volt unit into a 120 volt outlet and that is why Westend Trains does not switch power packs, but sells you dirt cheap a transformer for $15.00 when you buy a 230 volt starter set. Otherwise, Marklin would just make available a simple adapter for US/Canada outlets.

Hope this helps in deciding whether to get a transformer or not.
Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 12 November 2015 07:48:28(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
From that I infer that you CANNOT use a 230 volt unit into a 120 volt outlet and that is why Westend Trains does not switch power packs, but sells you dirt cheap a transformer for $15.00 when you buy a 230 volt starter set. Otherwise, Marklin would just make available a simple adapter for US/Canada outlets.
Unjustified conclusion ("Highly illogical." (Mr. Spock)). Already discussed in earlier posts.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline baggio  
#11 Posted : 12 November 2015 14:17:57(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Dubious conclusion, Mr. HO.
Offline H0  
#12 Posted : 12 November 2015 15:59:22(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
There are technical aspects, there are legal aspects.

You cannot use adapters for mains voltages with toy power supplies. Märklin use toy power supplies for all their products. If they would simply include a US adapter with the European toy power supply this would no longer be a toy power supply, at least not when used in America. In the worst case it would be an illegal power supply.

Many Chinese dealers use amazon.de or ebay.de to sell products to Germany. Often these products include US wallwarts with Euro adapters. Together these make illegal power supplies, highly unsafe with a substantial risk of touching 230 V when pulling the wallwart out of the adapter while the adapter is still plugged in. When you try to pull wallwart and adapter out of the socket, it often happens that you pull the wallwart out of the adapter.
The strong arm of European law cannot reach China and cannot do much against such dealers.


ESU use power supplies for 100 V through 240 V. The mains cord plugs into the power supply with a standard plug, and cables for use in Europe, US or Japan can easily be obtained.
ESU do not use toy power supplies, but with a "15+" mark I think this is legal. Märklin could go the same way, but they don't - not even for the CS2 which is marked "15+" anyway.


Märklin's 230 V power supply works in the US with a simple adapter. And most likely it even works safely there (don't take my word for it). But a company that insists on selling all products with toy power supplies cannot simply put the adapter into the box - legal reasons or pride prevent that.
It may well be that there is no risk of electric shock when using the European wallwart with a US adapter as the European plug has an insulated section.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline rshimada  
#13 Posted : 14 November 2015 02:59:46(UTC)
rshimada

United States   
Joined: 06/11/2015(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: Minnesota, Minneapolis
I ordered the set from Germany, so it will have a 230 volt power supply. Some people will swap it for a 120 volt but the seller asked Märklin if the set was available with one (it is not).
Offline rshimada  
#14 Posted : 14 November 2015 03:05:33(UTC)
rshimada

United States   
Joined: 06/11/2015(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: Minnesota, Minneapolis
Originally Posted by: 3rail4life Go to Quoted Post

No need to take any chances with any generic power supplies, just get a US adapter plug and use the 66361 or get a 66365.
...


Going with a Märklin power supply is certainly an option and the most expensive.

I had forgotten to mention in my original post that instead of paying around $45 for a 120 volt power supply to produce 18 volts at 30 watts, I might as well pay $50 for a variable 0-18 volt 0-2 amp bench power supply.
Offline rshimada  
#15 Posted : 14 November 2015 03:17:02(UTC)
rshimada

United States   
Joined: 06/11/2015(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: Minnesota, Minneapolis
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
...
When I bought my Roco starter set, the vendor exchanged the 230 power pack for a 120 power pack.


I really wanted to buy the 29290 from someone in North America because there would have been a chance to do a power pack exchange.

Of the eRetailers I normally order from, only one lists the 29290. I doubt they will ever have one.
Offline baggio  
#16 Posted : 14 November 2015 03:51:10(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Considering the high cost of the starter set, trying to save a few dollars for the transformer seems short sighted.

A transformer is something you plug in and forget about. Don't be afraid of it.

Buy one and enjoy your set. BigGrin
Offline 3rail4life  
#17 Posted : 14 November 2015 05:14:07(UTC)
3rail4life

United States   
Joined: 23/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Northern California
Originally Posted by: rshimada Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: 3rail4life Go to Quoted Post

No need to take any chances with any generic power supplies, just get a US adapter plug and use the 66361 or get a 66365.
...


Going with a Märklin power supply is certainly an option and the most expensive.

I had forgotten to mention in my original post that instead of paying around $45 for a 120 volt power supply to produce 18 volts at 30 watts, I might as well pay $50 for a variable 0-18 volt 0-2 amp bench power supply.


Nice setThumpUp , I have been thinking about that loco.

Going with the included Märklin power supply would be my first choice, the least expensive option and possibly more reliable than something not designed for use with the Mobile Station.

All you really need is this: EU to US

Not sure why you are opposed to using the 66361, especially if the cost of the 66365 is the issue, my euro wall wart and ms2 are four years old and still going strong.

The bottom line for me is why take any chances with expensive digital equipment and sometimes irreplaceable lok decoders just to save a few bucks. The Märklin switched mode power supplies are the only thing I would ever use with my MS2's or CS2.
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Offline baggio  
#18 Posted : 14 November 2015 05:27:16(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: 3rail4life Go to Quoted Post
All you really need is this: EU to US


This IS the riskiest choice. All that this adapter does is change the shape of the plug, NOTHING ELSE. It is not a transformer.

Uomo avvisato, mezzo salvato.
(a man who has been warned is a man who has been half-saved)

BigGrin
Offline 3rail4life  
#19 Posted : 14 November 2015 06:35:37(UTC)
3rail4life

United States   
Joined: 23/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Northern California
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post

All that this adapter does is change the shape of the plug, NOTHING ELSE. It is not a transformer.



and yes, that is the beauty of this solution, the 66361 is not a transformer either, but a switched mode power supply incorporating active power factor correction (PFC). Due to their very wide input voltage range, many power supplies with active PFC can automatically adjust to operate on AC power from about 100 V (Japan) to 230 V (Europe).

Märklin sells US specification switched mode power supplies to comply with our various regulations (FCC and Toy Safety Labeling), maybe in the future they too, like ESU and others, will offer the same units worldwide with changeable power cords and end all this silliness once and for all.

the proof of the pudding is in the eating.Cool
Offline baggio  
#20 Posted : 14 November 2015 06:47:26(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Yes, but as of now, Marklin power packs are NOT flexible. They are 230 or 120, not dual. As a result, sorry, but I don't think it would work properly.

If I am wrong, I will eat the pudding (with whip cream on top, please). BigGrin

If I am right, our friend will have an MS2 that won't work properly and maybe not at all. However, he can still eat the pudding.....
Offline seatrains  
#21 Posted : 14 November 2015 07:08:15(UTC)
seatrains

United States   
Joined: 22/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 669
Location: Shoreline, WA
As a "conservative collector" who is slowly transitioning to Marklin digital, I found a 66365 120v on (don't shoot me) Amazon, for less than ebay or a dealer...keep looking and one may show up at a good price. I bought a MS2 last Christmas on ebay.de for a screaming deal and was in the same situation..BigGrin Does anybody want to trade a 23OV wall wart and a white 230V digital x-former for...?
Thom
European Train Enthusiast - Pacific Northwest Chapter
4th Division, Pacific Northwest Region, National Model Railroaders Association
Offline H0  
#22 Posted : 14 November 2015 08:21:52(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Yes, but as of now, Marklin power packs are NOT flexible.
The flexibility is an undocumented feature. It does exist, but toy regulations do not allow adapter plugs.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline baggio  
#23 Posted : 14 November 2015 16:04:33(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
It is usually written on the case of the transformer what input/output the unit is good for.

What does the MS2 transformer say?
Offline H0  
#24 Posted : 14 November 2015 19:20:33(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
What does the MS2 transformer say?
It's a power supply, not a transformer.
The version with the Euro plug is meant for use in Europe only and the label only specifies 230 V/50 Hz.

The version with the US plug is meant for use in North America only and the label only specifies 120 V/60 Hz.

Therefore I said this flexibility is an undocumented feature. No guarantee, use at own risk.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline tulit  
#25 Posted : 15 November 2015 23:50:44(UTC)
tulit

Canada   
Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 400
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post


u need a transformer that steps up the input so as to accept a 120 volt input from the outlet and turn it into 230 volts.

Westend trains here charges $15.00 for such a unit (at least when you buy a starter set).



Stay far away from these. These are cheap, non isolated auto-transformers. The one I got included with my starter set crumbled in my hand one day when I was unplugging it. Great fun considering we're talking about 240V on the secondary. These are poorly made, and probably aren't even legal to be sold/used here (they carry no cUL/CSA Mark). There's a few shops in the hurontario/401 area that sell the same units for about $5...

Save yourself the aggravation of damaging your equipment, your house and yourself and spend the $50 or whatever for the proper 120V units.
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Offline PMPeter  
#26 Posted : 16 November 2015 16:46:37(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
There are 2 items at issue here:

- Does it work?
- Is it safe?

Yes it worked just fine for me without a step-up transformer and using a plug configuration adapter.

Is it safe - not in my opinion because it is a single unit without an incoming cable as you would have with a dual rated laptop power supply. Therefore, the European 2 pin connector that normally plugs into a recessed receptacle plus a European to North American plug adapter makes this wall wart stick out of a standard North American surface mount receptacle by at least 2 inches. The weight of the unit then pulls the plug partially out of the receptacle causing a shock hazard. I ended up modifying a European extension cord that I had on hand to get around this problem, but unless you know what you are doing I would not advise this either. For the cost of this approach you are close to the cost of the proper North American 120V unit!

Therefore, the 230V units as designed would never be able to get UL or CSA approval.

Are the internals the same to be able to handle the 110 to 240 V 50/60 Hz range of power? Only Marklin can answer that.

Peter
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Offline H0  
#27 Posted : 16 November 2015 19:25:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
Are the internals the same to be able to handle the 110 to 240 V 50/60 Hz range of power? Only Marklin can answer that.
Can Märklin answer that? The German company which designed the power supplies should know. Or the Chinese company that assembled them.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline PMPeter  
#28 Posted : 16 November 2015 21:32:55(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
Are the internals the same to be able to handle the 110 to 240 V 50/60 Hz range of power? Only Marklin can answer that.
Can Märklin answer that? The German company which designed the power supplies should know. Or the Chinese company that assembled them.



OK if you want to nitpick, you are correct. Maybe you want to go down to the individual component manufacturer to see what tolerance is on each component.

However, Marklin should know what they specified for the designer and the manufacturer to design and build - one power supply capable of handling anything between 110 to 240 V 50/60 Hz with individual plug connectors for either European or North American receptacles, or 2 unique power supplies totally designed to accommodate one region only. From a pure cost point of view I would suspect the former and that is why it works and why it is even recommended by some Marklin dealers in North America.
Offline H0  
#29 Posted : 16 November 2015 23:32:52(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Here's a photo with a Märklin wall-wart on the left and a Roco wall-wart on the right:
UserPostedImage

Steger should know what's inside, but I doubt that either Märklin or Roco could tell us whether they are technically fit for use with 120 V.
If we ask, both will tell us that it's strictly "verboten" to use them with 120 V.

Feel free to call it nitpicking, but for many items Märklin is just a reseller. It is good to let specialized companies design the items, but the reseller will not have all technical details.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline baggio  
#30 Posted : 16 November 2015 23:44:25(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
I will stick to plan "A", buy a transformer from Mike. If he sells it, it must work. BigGrin
Offline PMPeter  
#31 Posted : 17 November 2015 03:30:30(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
I will stick to plan "A", buy a transformer from Mike. If he sells it, it must work. BigGrin


Buying a step up transformer just adds another component into your system and is probably more expensive than the proper power supply. Yes it steps up the voltage to 230 V but it does so at 60 Hz and does nothing for the 50 Hz the European wallwart is designed for. So for North America if you want to get a certified product that is designed for use here, buy the Marklin 66365 power supply. It is around US$45 on line.
Offline baggio  
#32 Posted : 17 November 2015 03:49:25(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
USD$44.95 at R' and this is what it says:

"The input is 120 volts / 60 Hertz / the output 18 volts / 30 watts DC voltage. "

Nothing about delivering the 50 htz you are speaking about.

So that you know, almost 50 years ago when I came to Canada from Italy my parents brought a transformer along, we used it on the Marklin layout of the times (1968) and the set worked just fine. Obviously, it was an analogue set.

In any event, each one of us makes decisions and has to live with the consequences, good or bad, of our decisions. I hope your decision works for you. BigGrin

Cheers.
Offline rshimada  
#33 Posted : 17 November 2015 04:03:01(UTC)
rshimada

United States   
Joined: 06/11/2015(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: Minnesota, Minneapolis
tl;dr An initial test indicates that 66361 seems to work on 120 volts.

Originally Posted by: 3rail4life Go to Quoted Post
[Nice setThumpUp , I have been thinking about that loco.

Going with the included Märklin power supply would be my first choice, the least expensive option and possibly more reliable than something not designed for use with the Mobile Station.

All you really need is this: EU to US

Not sure why you are opposed to using the 66361, especially if the cost of the 66365 is the issue, my euro wall wart and ms2 are four years old and still going strong.


I think I've waited for a couple of years for a decent loco in an affordable starter set. Looks like the Class 290 was also available in the €1600 29791 Digital Mega Starter Set. (No thanks!)

The objection I had to using the 66361 is that it's clearly labeled for 230 volts and it has a different output rating than the 66365.

However since the 29290 has arrived (wow, what a big box) giving me a 66361. Having a power adapter sitting around, I had nothing to lose by trying the 66361.

The 66361 produced 18 volts DC from US 120 volt AC.

It's nice to know that someone else has already been doing this BigGrin

Thanks a bunch for tip!
Offline PMPeter  
#34 Posted : 17 November 2015 04:41:23(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
USD$44.95 at R' and this is what it says:

"The input is 120 volts / 60 Hertz / the output 18 volts / 30 watts DC voltage. "

Nothing about delivering the 50 htz you are speaking about.

So that you know, almost 50 years ago when I came to Canada from Italy my parents brought a transformer along, we used it on the Marklin layout of the times (1968) and the set worked just fine. Obviously, it was an analogue set.

In any event, each one of us makes decisions and has to live with the consequences, good or bad, of our decisions. I hope your decision works for you. BigGrin

Cheers.


I think we are talking about 2 different things. You are suggesting using a step up transformer between the wall outlet and the European 66361 power supply. Yes that will work but it adds another electrical item that a lot of us have found out is not required from a functional point of view since you are dealing with a switched mode power supply, not a transformer. I looked at the nameplate of my European 66361 and it is rated 50/60 Hz so my previous comment about the 50 Hz is not relevant. I find this interesting in itself. Do any countries use 230V 60 Hz, or is this a subtle way of saying something else?

I agree with you, 50 years ago when we brought 220 V European Marklin transformers over from Europe we had no choice but use a step up transformer to convert the 120 VAC to 220 VAC if we wanted to use the European units. In that case the North American 60 Hz compared to the European 50 Hz did make a difference. However, these were transformers with AC input and AC output, not switched mode power supplies with AC input and DC output. Totally different devices that too many people lump into a "transformer" category.
Offline PMPeter  
#35 Posted : 17 November 2015 04:57:44(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: rshimada Go to Quoted Post
tl;dr An initial test indicates that 66361 seems to work on 120 volts.

[I think I've waited for a couple of years for a decent loco in an affordable starter set. Looks like the Class 290 was also available in the €1600 29791 Digital Mega Starter Set. (No thanks!)

The objection I had to using the 66361 is that it's clearly labeled for 230 volts and it has a different output rating than the 66365.

However since the 29290 has arrived (wow, what a big box) giving me a 66361. Having a power adapter sitting around, I had nothing to lose by trying the 66361.

The 66361 produced 18 volts DC from US 120 volt AC.

It's nice to know that someone else has already been doing this BigGrin

Thanks a bunch for tip!


Glad it worked for you as it has for a lot of us. However, be cautious as per my original post regarding the long length of the adapted plug and its tendency to pull out of the wall receptacle due to the weight of the power supply. It can be real shocking!!!

Cheers
Peter
Offline rshimada  
#36 Posted : 17 November 2015 05:26:24(UTC)
rshimada

United States   
Joined: 06/11/2015(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: Minnesota, Minneapolis
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: rshimada Go to Quoted Post
An initial test indicates that 66361 seems to work on 120 volts.

Glad it worked for you as it has for a lot of us. However, be cautious as per my original post regarding the long length of the adapted plug and its tendency to pull out of the wall receptacle due to the weight of the power supply. It can be real shocking!!!


Oh I have zero plans to try to connect any euro plug directly into a North American wall outlet. It will definitely be on a power strip or extension cord.

I've shocked myself enough times with the fairly dangerous electric plugs we use here.

I had to check Wikipedia for countries with 230 volt 60 hertz power. There are some, but still makes you wonder if the 60 hertz on the power supply was left as a little hint.
Offline H0  
#37 Posted : 17 November 2015 08:11:52(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
Buying a step up transformer just adds another component into your system and is probably more expensive than the proper power supply.
Now you are nitpicking. Many people say "transformer" when they actually refer to a power supply.
Even Märklin sold power supplies that were marked "transformer". Do they know what they are selling? Well, sometimes they don't even use the correct term.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline tulit  
#38 Posted : 17 November 2015 13:00:19(UTC)
tulit

Canada   
Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 400
At the very least by running a supply designed for 230V at 120V, you should derate the output in half (eg don't run a 30va supply at anymore than 15va). The issue is that by dropping the input voltage roughly in half you are doubling the current flowing through the primary side for the same output load. If the components weren't designed to take double the current they could fail.

The 50/60Hz thing is less of a issue especially with smps. Its *usually* fine going from 50->60hz. The other way can be more tricky as at 50hz you generally need larger input caps.

I'm still of the strong opinion to only use things in the way they were intended/spec'd.
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Offline fkowal  
#39 Posted : 17 November 2015 19:48:42(UTC)
fkowal

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Joined: 01/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 69
Location: Toronto
The photo of the two units provided by HO (Tom) clearly specifies a 230V input. If it were designed to provide the rated output of 18V DC at 30 VA at 120V, it would say so. If you look closely at the fine print cell phone chargers they do indicate an input range of 120 through 230V. In all transformers with an AC primary and an AC secondary the frequency of the two sides is the same. In this case the frequency of 50 or 60 Hz is irrelevant. The output is DC (direct current) which has no frequency. There is no harm in using a step up transformer 110/220V AC to drive this power supply. On my layout, all of my digital power supplies are 230V and I use a 300W step up transformer to power them.
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Offline H0  
#40 Posted : 18 November 2015 00:33:53(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: fkowal Go to Quoted Post
If it were designed to provide the rated output of 18V DC at 30 VA at 120V, it would say so.
Why? In which country would the plug fit where 120 V are used?

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline rshimada  
#41 Posted : 22 November 2015 23:08:09(UTC)
rshimada

United States   
Joined: 06/11/2015(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: Minnesota, Minneapolis
I'll share some follow up thoughts.

  • Why the 66361 is not documented as being an international power supply is really frustrating.
  • From another thread: DC or AC power can be used for a 60113 track box. At least 18 volts DC should be used for H0; 16 volts AC works well.
  • The track box is unlikely to draw more than 2 amps.

Eventually I found quite a lot of useful comments at https://www.marklin-users.net/fo...transformer-for-MS2.aspx, the most important being the use of AC power supplies for a 60113 track box.

Yesterday I finally got to setup my starter set and the 66361 "230 volt" power supply worked on 120 volts just fine. I was finally able to run my Märklin H0 locos! (Though okay, at least two can use some work.)

Being primarily a Z scaler Google also found http://www.velmo.de/html/-_track_voltage.html which mentions using 12 volt power supplies with a Mobile Station 2. I plugged a 12 volt power supply into the 60113 and was able to run H0 locos slowly. After that I plugged the 60113 into some N scale track and tried DCC for the first time on my only digital N loco.

It's important to realize that Mobile Station 2 does not provide track power. In the case of a starter set, the real question is: What power can a track box take? An important hint is the product description of the Mobile Station 2 which says 1.9 amps is available from the track boxes.

Interestingly, the Märklin 60113 "manual" is a diagram showing a 60113 with a power supply that looks a lot like a 60052 (16 volt AC, 60 VA). Showing a 60052 would make sense since it was the previous generation constant power supply.

The referred to thread mentions that higher voltages make smoke generators work better.

There are many power supply options. Of course, Märklin will only support use of power supplies that they have specified.
Offline Minok  
#42 Posted : 16 March 2016 22:06:08(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: rshimada Go to Quoted Post

Yesterday I finally got to setup my starter set and the 66361 "230 volt" power supply worked on 120 volts just fine. I was finally able to run my Märklin H0 locos!


The concern with using a 240v AC spec'd switching power supply on 120v AC mains power is that the switching power supply wasn't designed for the double input current draw that drawing for 120v AC would result in.

Did you run your 66361 on an track drawing the maximum load the supply was specified to provide? (1.9A at the track) over some substantial time (30mins+) to validate the 66361 is indeed designed and constructed to dissipate the heat related to the double current draw on the input side?
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#43 Posted : 16 March 2016 22:28:39(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: rshimada Go to Quoted Post

Yesterday I finally got to setup my starter set and the 66361 "230 volt" power supply worked on 120 volts just fine. I was finally able to run my Märklin H0 locos!


The concern with using a 240v AC spec'd switching power supply on 120v AC mains power is that the switching power supply wasn't designed for the double input current draw that drawing for 120v AC would result in.

Did you run your 66361 on an track drawing the maximum load the supply was specified to provide? (1.9A at the track) over some substantial time (30mins+) to validate the 66361 is indeed designed and constructed to dissipate the heat related to the double current draw on the input side?


The supply that comes with these sets are known as 'Universal Supplies' and will operate satisfactorily from 90VAC to 250VAC.

The reason that Marklin mark them with a limited voltage range is because it has a connector that does not match all the mains sockets in the world, so the mark it for the voltage supplied by matching mains sockets, i.e. 110V for a supply with a US mains connecotr, and 230V for a supply with a european mains connector.

This has been covered in a number of threads on this forum.

Offline PMPeter  
#44 Posted : 16 March 2016 22:43:27(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: rshimada Go to Quoted Post

Yesterday I finally got to setup my starter set and the 66361 "230 volt" power supply worked on 120 volts just fine. I was finally able to run my Märklin H0 locos!


The concern with using a 240v AC spec'd switching power supply on 120v AC mains power is that the switching power supply wasn't designed for the double input current draw that drawing for 120v AC would result in.

Did you run your 66361 on an track drawing the maximum load the supply was specified to provide? (1.9A at the track) over some substantial time (30mins+) to validate the 66361 is indeed designed and constructed to dissipate the heat related to the double current draw on the input side?


Here we go again. This debate raises its head every few months and seems to evoke considerable passion. My large local M distributor sells the European wall warts with the suitable plug configuration adapter and states they are totally fine for local use. A US seller who is also a member of this forum does likewise. Numerous members, including myself, have successfully proven that yes they work just fine, but I for one have cautioned about the length of the plug after the adapter has been added and its tendency to fall out of the wall receptacle. Thus, recommendations of using a European power bar or surface mount receptacle wired for North American use.

I once made the rash statement that only M would know for sure if the internals of these switched mode power supplies were identical and got chastised by Tom that this is not the case and only the manufacturer would know for sure.

So I think to end this debate once and for all, someone with sufficient electrical/electronics knowledge needs to buy both a European and a North American wall wart supply, take them apart, and compare component by component. Maybe those results would satisfy the majority.
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Offline clapcott  
#45 Posted : 17 March 2016 03:25:34(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
FWIW (If anyone REALLY cares)

The 29000 set comes with a 66361 for plugging into 60116 Track Connector Box.

The packages outside labelling has a section for (USA Flag) on one side with a contents section that includes ...
quote
... , a 36 VA / EU: 230 V / USA:120 volts switched mode power pack ....
end quote

The equivalent German, Dutch, French sections just state ... 36 VA / EU: 230 V
Peter
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Offline Minok  
#46 Posted : 18 March 2016 22:06:56(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post

I once made the rash statement that only M would know for sure if the internals of these switched mode power supplies were identical and got chastised by Tom that this is not the case and only the manufacturer would know for sure.

So I think to end this debate once and for all, someone with sufficient electrical/electronics knowledge needs to buy both a European and a North American wall wart supply, take them apart, and compare component by component. Maybe those results would satisfy the majority.


Some say they work, and I have no doubt they do, but do they work under full rated load was my question.
I've got no doubt the supply can produce the power it needs from 120v AC mains power. I'm only uncertain as to whether the wall wart was built to do that at the fully rated current draw through the supply without overheating/melting, when the label on the power brick indicates 240vAC input (and not 110-240vAC range input)... given Märklins ubiquitous notices to only power the systems with the power bricks rated for your local power system.

It may well be that its purely a bureaucratic/regulatory question - the Euro power bricks have not been UL/FCC approved (yet)... but may work just fine.
Its also the issue that the use of adapters on these, as they are toys, runs afoul with US electric toy safety laws/regulations. Remember the US is one of the only places the Kinder Überraschungseier are not allowed to be imported into because we don't trust our children to not eat and swallow plastic bits, or the parents to not give those to their very young children.

You don't have to be the manufacturer to know, one can simply do the experiment, no destructive disassembly of the part is required. Run the power brick with it drawing its rated maximum power, from 110vAC mains, and let it run for many hours. If it doesn't overheat/melt/fail, then they are fine. Proof by example. So I was merely asking of the person who had used the 240vAC switching power brick had run it near its load limit. 1-2 locos is not a problem and would not reveal a technical issue if there was one.

I'll have to look at my 29000 box to see if the same labeling is there as described.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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