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Offline SteamNut  
#1 Posted : 30 October 2015 00:03:57(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 488
When I first designed my HO layout I used the stencils by Marklin. Afterwards, after it was built, I tried SCRAM to see how computer aided works. Personally I prefer paper and pencil which may be influenced by the drafting classes I took in high school in the 70's and my lack of skills on a computer. Right now my layout uses M track but I have stencils for C and K track in the future - Fred
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Offline RayF  
#2 Posted : 30 October 2015 00:32:04(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I used to draw my plans out on paper using my own home made stencils. When I discovered computer programs that did all the hard work for you I have to admit I was converted in an instant!

I've used several free programs in the past, but I've never used SCARM.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline analogmike  
#3 Posted : 30 October 2015 02:04:25(UTC)
analogmike

United States   
Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 737
Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
I enjoy the pencil drawing very much. However, in complex station or shunting yards i use the scarm method. For these areas it's great to produce several different ideas and print them out. This gives me the freedom to explore several ideas at the same time without going through 800 erasers. The computer is also a great way to work out gradient percentages. Technology is a good thing but i feel it should compliment the creative process, not replace it. mikey.
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#4 Posted : 30 October 2015 03:31:25(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi,
Rather intriguing question.

I used the C track layout design booklets published by Marklin and included in their start sets.
The rest came into my head as I built the layout.
The C track geometry is so well designed, I have never had to put pen to paper and I don't own a track design program.
Maybe that indicates just how simple my layout plan is, one level only.

However, in relation to flex track (which I have used for 2 rail modules etc), I was forever putting it down on paper, and modifying it.
Those days are over.

regards
Kimball

Edited by user 30 October 2015 10:07:36(UTC)  | Reason: simplicity

HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline river6109  
#5 Posted : 30 October 2015 05:53:33(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I've got some news, my layout was in my head, than drawn a sketch of it and this was it. started to build my layout with 5' x 4' chipboard (2100mm x 1200mm) carried on, later in the years Australia changed from imperial to metric and I bought metric chip boards, as the layout became larger (modules) my next task was to connect all the tracks from my main station to next board and no way was I able to do this, so the result was to add another module (2400mm x 1200mm) and than my brain started to click, the extra board had to be duplicated on the other side as well.

as the layout came to end and all was almost finished,. we took off for a public exhibition 250km south of Perth, hired a semitrailer but gave this idea away as the light weight would have ruined the layout so we've settled for a truck, arrived in Busselton and started putting all the modules together (19) and than to our surprise one side of the layout was constructed with 2400mm x 1200mm and the other side with 6' x 4' boards and they didn't quite fit together as they should have done but with a few maneuvers we managed to connect them all.

All measures were done on the boards and I didn't have any problems with that + computers in those days, I don't think they were available

in a nutshell, I wouldn't recommend my method

regards.,

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline rrf  
#6 Posted : 30 October 2015 11:50:29(UTC)
rrf

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 300
Location: Silver Spring, Maryland USA
In one word: SCARM.

Words cannot express my gratitude to the person/people who created and continue to support this wonderful tool!
Rob
Mackenrode Wende Bahn
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Offline tfk  
#7 Posted : 30 October 2015 19:14:29(UTC)
tfk

Netherlands   
Joined: 18/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
SCARM for me too. Although it does remind me over and over again that my table is too small for the things I want. But that is not SCARM's fault. :)

I followed a few tutorials on YouTube to get started.

Cheers!
TFK
TFK
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Offline clapcott  
#8 Posted : 30 October 2015 20:58:43(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Ahhh.... the good old days of protractor and compass... I could buy more track instead of a stencil.

Now days I prefer the raw simplicity of "AnyRail" for the stuff I can't do in my head.
Peter
Offline Webmaster  
#9 Posted : 30 October 2015 21:06:18(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
To scribble down an overall idea for a layout, I prefer the old fashioned freehand doodling method...
But to make it real I "nowadays" (well, haven't planned anything for at least 5 years or so..) it's great to use software so you can get a track inventory for your plans and such...

I used RailWays and Raily earlier for computer plans, and have now installed SCARM which is a truly great planning software - I'll just have to start using it... BigGrin

20 years ago, I used stencils to plan the M-track layout I & my son built back then...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#10 Posted : 30 October 2015 21:38:29(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I used to draw my plans out on paper using my own home made stencils..... .


Hi Ray,
Wow that must have been really something.
I remember the days when I made my own OO scale ruler out of cardboard. Now you buy them in engraved stainless steel.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline RayF  
#11 Posted : 30 October 2015 23:34:31(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I used to draw my plans out on paper using my own home made stencils..... .


Hi Ray,
Wow that must have been really something.
I remember the days when I made my own OO scale ruler out of cardboard. Now you buy them in engraved stainless steel.

regards
Kimball


Hi Kimball,

I saw the track stencils in the Marklin catalogue and made one for myself using thick card. I drew the shapes on with drawing instruments and then cut them out with a sharp scalpel blade. It worked better than I expected, but the card didn't last long.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline baggio  
#12 Posted : 02 November 2015 03:51:09(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Has anyone tried Wintrack? http://www.wintrack.de/usa.html

There is a free demo that is very good ThumpUp but does not allow you to save your plans or print them.

Also, it's in Italian (I got it via the Italian Marklin site, 3 Rotaie). Still, I expect the demo is available in English as well. Once you try it, you can buy it.

I tried the demo a couple of times and it is pretty good.

I still prefer the pen and paper approach, however. Blushing
Offline baggio  
#13 Posted : 02 November 2015 04:57:00(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Well, when I checked on the website I gave above, the demo offer WAS THERE! It says:

"WinTrack V12.0 3D – Demo version

You can download a free DEMO version (you can't save or print with it)

Demo version 12.0 (10,5 MB)

Actually the complete program with all libraries will be installed.
The complete English manual and tutorial is included in the help files."



By the way, the cost of the CD is 99.50 Euros plus 6.50 Euros for shipping. Not too bad. BigGrin
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Offline hxmiesa  
#14 Posted : 02 November 2015 12:05:42(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,519
Location: Spain
I´ve worked at lot with WIntrack, and it is excellent. (at least the older vesions I have tried, was). It definetly beats pen and paper any time!
But I think the most important is to have a good memory of the different track radii and track-lengths you have to work with, and not having to look everything up in the program database all the time.

If you want to move or stretch some particular part of the layout, the computer makes it realy easy to insert (or delete) tracks, and automatically moving everything on the other end. -Something very troublesome if you are using pen and paper.
Automatic calculation of needed track-sections to connect two end.
Automatic "bending" of flexible tracks.
-And the newer additions of 3-dimensional representation with scenic details and decorations.
Done in seconds with the software, what would otherwise take days-weeks-months to do by hand!
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline fkowal  
#15 Posted : 02 November 2015 14:39:37(UTC)
fkowal

Canada   
Joined: 01/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 69
Location: Toronto
I concur with hxmiesa.

I have used wintrack when I was in the MS Windows world and now I use Railmodeller in the Apple universe. Both are good products.

In addition to the benefits already mentioned is the ability to make changes which I find the most beneficial. My layouts designs go through continuous revisions as I come up with better ideas to layout problems. It avoids the need to use an eraser. You can also save multiple versions of your layout design to try out different ideas, and still go back to a version you had done months ago.

However, it is still hard to beat the "start from scratch" approach with a blank sheet of paper and a pencil to capture your initial thoughts.
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Offline baggio  
#16 Posted : 02 November 2015 17:19:36(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
While Wintrack can be fun to play with (the demo), I really wonder if one cannot do the same thing manually if your layout is simple, as mine is.

Does Wintrack (and all such programs) REALLY save you time?
Offline rorosha  
#17 Posted : 03 November 2015 01:18:23(UTC)
rorosha


Joined: 06/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: MECHANICSBURG PA USA
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
While Wintrack can be fun to play with (the demo), I really wonder if one cannot do the same thing manually if your layout is simple, as mine is.

Does Wintrack (and all such programs) REALLY save you time?


It depends. Your first layout will seem to take forever, as you're learning the program. Once you have mastered ( or at least developed some competency in) the program, you can throw together even relatively complex layouts much more quickly.

If you're only going to do one relatively simple layout, and you 'know' exactly what you want, the program isn't worth the time or expense. If you're developing a layout, or even tinkering, the programs are great.

A number of times, I have seen some feature or configuration in a video or image, and then sat down with a program to see if I could create the same feature or configuration. It's a fun learning experience. I keep them on file, to possibly be incorporated in a layout at a future date.

By the way, I use RailModeler, and even though I had to learn it twice (the last big update changed it completely), am very satisfied. I don't mind the money I spent.

Rodger
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Offline hxmiesa  
#18 Posted : 03 November 2015 18:06:31(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,519
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
While Wintrack can be fun to play with (the demo), I really wonder if one cannot do the same thing manually if your layout is simple, as mine is.
Does Wintrack (and all such programs) REALLY save you time?

It saves time, but of course: The more you draw/design, the more you save!
Anyway, a complex tool like WinTrack also requeires some dedication and practice before you are able to take full advantage of it.
If you only want it for planning an own small and simple design, it might not be worth it.
If you just HAPPENS to like making up big plans (even when they dont lead to any real construction) then the program is great fun, and with the 3D components you can generate very professional looking virtual layouts...

I wouldnt even BEGIN to design my own multilevel (9) layout without the use of computer aided design!
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline baggio  
#19 Posted : 03 November 2015 18:37:34(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
"I wouldnt even BEGIN to design my own multilevel (9) layout without the use of computer aided design!"

OK, hxmiesa, now you got me curious. PLEASE show us your layout. BigGrin
Offline French_Fabrice  
#20 Posted : 03 November 2015 20:49:51(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,475
Location: Lyon, France
Hello,

On my side, I use Wintrack since 5 years to design my layouts.

The main benefits is to allow me to have a 3D-view of the result I'm planning. It's because I have some difficulties to view the result in my mind, and it is a good help for the final result.
For a simple layout, such a tool may not be useful, and a rough sketch on a paper may be enough.
But for complex layout with stacked levels, I'm really thinking it's a must.
It could be Wintrack or any other software, it doesn't matter.

There is always a varying period of time (depending on your habits the use CAD software) mandatory to understand the various features provided by the software. It's not only a "point & click" human interface, you must first understand the basics and browse the various tips & recommendations. But it's not too much complex. In my opinion spending 2 weeks for a learning phase would be enough.

I'm working in an IT company, so that may also explain why I like such tools.Blushing

The design phase of a layout is at the beginning very exciting, because you try to mix your ideas together BigGrin . Then the geometry laws and various constraints (most of the time the available space for the layout) make the design phase very less attractive Crying. You have to persevere to achieve an acceptable goal (which may be different from your initial ideas Angry).

For my current layout, I've done more that 200 versions of the plan (not all were complete versions, only the last 50 were full versions) in 3 months. Without a software, it would have taken centuries ...Wink

My 2 cents
Fabrice
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Offline hxmiesa  
#21 Posted : 04 November 2015 10:03:48(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,519
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
"I wouldnt even BEGIN to design my own multilevel (9) layout without the use of computer aided design!"
OK, hxmiesa, now you got me curious. PLEASE show us your layout. BigGrin

I would love to point you to the thread here on this forum, because it has already been extensively documented here, many years ago.
BUT... the images and photos used are gone, as my -then- preferred hosting service (www.majhost.com) went titsup sme time ago.

Some preliminary designs can still be seen on my old homepage;
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com/train/id17.html
-But I´m afraid that is all there is left online, for the moment...

Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline Minok  
#22 Posted : 09 February 2016 21:54:57(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
As a computer professional and engineer I can echo all of the previous comments as being valid and that the universal answer of it depends absolutely applies. And this before I have even begun my very first and what will likely be very complex multi-year layout build. (more on that later in the post).

Computer Aided Design programs are very powerful, when designed well, and each has a certain learning curve associated with them. There is pain and little progress as you become familiar with the program over weeks or months of working with them. The payout is once you become familiar with them enough to be able to use them the way we all use a word processor like MS Word; you can then do a lot a lot faster... but the scope of the project is still key.

If you are doing a table top layout, where everything is on one plane, or maybe only one slope up to a bridge and down again, no mater how large the table, you can probably do just fine and get to a solution quicker by drawing it out on paper, doing some rough estimates of the track pieces you need and then building with the track pieces. CAD software there is not worth the effort.

However, if you will have varying levels as well as substantial complexity and are trying to optimize your use of the space you have to fit certain geometric features into it - say reproduce some aspect of a real rail line/station/yard in some way on your layout, THEN there is a huge advantage to using software.

And if you are like me, starting from scratch and intending to do a big build, and thus you need to buy almost all of the track you will use, then it really helps to design out the layout in CAD and have it give you a bill of materials (the parts you will need to buy with part numbers, and the costs) - because then you can plan and budget and order much easier with less purchases and waste.

In my case, I've got the whole bonus room above the garage available, which is about the size of a 2 car garage, with 10 foot ceilings. My intent isn't to fill the room, but I've got a lot of space to work with, but still within the constraints of where the walls, doors, window and closet are located. The conditions I'm working with are:

  • substantial sized blank canvas
  • size constraints from the walls/windows/doors
  • multi-year building plan
  • desire to be able to modularize - to allow transport or reconfiguration more easily
  • multi-level: 3-4 elevation planes above the table/ground surface, as well as at least 1-2 levels below the table for the shadow stations and yards
  • will include helix accents and descents to get up and down within a smaller footprint and not needing long runs
  • sets of features and stations from the real world in Germany, as well as seen on other layouts I want to include
  • want to integrate a limited Faller Car System component for vehicle traffic on roads that crosses a rail line.


To bring these things together, it is so worth it for me to become familiar with a CAD program to do the work and have it handle the geometry checks, generate parts lists, etc.

I'd not use AutoCAD to draw up a bird house design, but I'd get benefits if I was doing a landscape or building. Similarly, if I was just doing a layout on a 4x8 table top I'd do it by hand/paper, but for what I have planned, I definitely want to use the computer tools.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#23 Posted : 09 February 2016 22:56:15(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Like Steamnut, I took Draughting (Tech Drawing we called it then) classes at school in the '70's - passed Year 11 exams OK, but passed the Year 12 exam by 1 mark!

Anyway, during that time I drew quite a few trackplans using a Tee Square, compass, scale ruler and a large sheet of paper. Many of those designs were based on varations
of my 1971 catalog layout you see in my layout thread, and some were way too big to ever be built! I still have them all though.

More laterly I have used Wintrack to draw my layout, and I also used it to draw up plans of the Märklin Exhibition layout based on pictures and the plan published in the
Märklin Magazine. You will probably find them in a forum thread on the Märklin Exhibition layout.

I have also used SCARM a wee bit just to familiarise my self with it - I like it!

Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Computer Aided Design programs are very powerful, when designed well, and each has a certain learning curve associated with them. There is pain and little progress as you become familiar with the program over weeks or months of working with them.


Oh yeah, there sure is!! Crying Sad Scared I've have played a little bit with Solidworks - I sort of ended up with a basic drawing, but multi component / multi layer 3D stuff is going to take some time to master!
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