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Poll Question : Do you want Märklin do multi locomotives like ESU?
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Offline Goofy  
#1 Posted : 23 July 2015 09:12:34(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
ESU has become more popular with theirs multi protocol locomotives by use with two or three rails.
So i decides to see if members of Märklin want to see Märklin do it same way,by vote.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline mike c  
#2 Posted : 23 July 2015 21:37:23(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
The concept of a universal locomotive was first brought to my attention in a flyer from the Swiss firm RailTop. The new generation of decoders can operate with AC or DC power. The hard part is designing the model so that it can be run on 2 rail DC or 3 rail AC. AC uses the centre rail and both rails for common ground. 2 Rail DC uses one rail for positive and the other one for negative. The universal locomotives can be switched from one system to the other by installing (either screw mounting or clipping on) a slider for the third rail and joining the axle contacts to provide a common ground.
This can still be problematic as the axle/wheel contacts would have to be split in order to avoid a short on DC tracks. Having the wheels remain isolated can avoid this, but it makes it harder to use such a locomotive with Maerklin sensors that use the common ground to trigger solenoids.
The ESU models are designed to be easily changeable from one system to the other. In the case of the recent Lima Expert ETR 600/610, conversion requires changes to pin switches on the PC board and the installation of a cable for the centre rail slider. This is not a clip-on and go solution.
There also remains the issue of wheel profile and wheel spacing that would become an issue, especially on older M Track or Fleischmann DC tracks.

It is an interesting concept that will be reality over the next few years, but I don't see this becoming mainstream for Maerklin as this would cut into sales of Trix versions of the same models.

Regards

Mike C
Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 23 July 2015 21:50:31(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
There also remains the issue of wheel profile and wheel spacing that would become an issue, especially on older M Track or Fleischmann DC tracks.
Is that really an issue? Märklin use the same wheel sets for the Märklin and Trix Hobby TRAXX locos - and I haven't heard complaints about that loco.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Webmaster  
#4 Posted : 23 July 2015 21:55:53(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
But it would be great to take your M loco to a 2-rail layout too, instead of buying one Märklin and one Trix of the same prototype...
Kind of would embrace the thought of "one model railroading for all" as a single hobby for individuals, clubs and display layouts...

Maybe even the DC/DCC guys would then look at M as a viable alternative to shop for, even if the price might be a bit steep for
some - but M acceptance among "the rest of the world" would probably mean increased sales also for M when the rumour spreads...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline biedmatt  
#5 Posted : 23 July 2015 22:23:26(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post

This can still be problematic as the axle/wheel contacts would have to be split in order to avoid a short on DC tracks. Having the wheels remain isolated can avoid this, but it makes it harder to use such a locomotive with Maerklin sensors that use the common ground to trigger solenoids.

Regards

Mike C


If they design it right, this is not a problem. You will need pickups for both sides of the loko for two rail, now you just need a SPDT switch or simply a two position jumper (3 pins) and you can open the hot side of the decoder from the right rail pickup and close the pickups of both rails together. This will allow old M contact track to still function. Now make the third rail to the hot side of the decoder power and you are done.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline Goofy  
#6 Posted : 24 July 2015 09:23:52(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post

This can still be problematic as the axle/wheel contacts would have to be split in order to avoid a short on DC tracks. Having the wheels remain isolated can avoid this, but it makes it harder to use such a locomotive with Maerklin sensors that use the common ground to trigger solenoids.
The ESU models are designed to be easily changeable from one system to the other.

Regards

Mike C


Both side of the wheels do have contact with the rail as common ground.
ESU do have this and it works fine with Märklins sensor like s88.
Just pull off the pick up shoe,you have two rail locomotives and the wheels are isolated,which do have work for the other solenoids sensor.
ESU locomotives also works with the ABC technology,by use with the brake generator like Lenz BM1.
To have an multi locomotive makes more richer variation for the model railway.
When Märklin produce one model,they produce in two way,three and two rail system,which means you buy two models,while with the ESU just one!

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline RayF  
#7 Posted : 24 July 2015 13:56:48(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I think a multi system model is only really attractive to those who are undecided on which system to choose. I would not imagine there are many people who will buy both AC and DC versions of the same loco to run on different layouts, so normally one would buy either the Marklin or the Trix version, depending on your track.

I'm always wary of products that claim to work just as well as two different ones. There's always a compromise somewhere.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by RayF
Offline rbw993  
#8 Posted : 24 July 2015 15:45:17(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 954
I have to agree with Ray. I am strictly 3 rail so it offers no benefit.

Roger
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Offline grnwtrs  
#9 Posted : 24 July 2015 17:57:28(UTC)
grnwtrs

United States   
Joined: 18/06/2005(UTC)
Posts: 669
Location: El Sobrante, California
Originally Posted by: rbw993 Go to Quoted Post
I have to agree with Ray. I am strictly 3 rail so it offers no benefit.

Roger


Me too!!

I have enough trouble changing to Marklin couplers from Viessmann as an exampleBigGrin BigGrin
Offline biedmatt  
#10 Posted : 24 July 2015 18:14:27(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
The advantage is to the manufacturer, they would not need two product lines (Marklin and Trix) and/or they could streamline inventory. As ESU is doing. But as Marklin wants to be a plug and play company, this would be incompatable to their traditional customer base.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by biedmatt
Offline Hackcell  
#11 Posted : 24 July 2015 18:27:12(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
I think that having M developing this kind of equipment will take a part of the other manufacturers' share; eventually forcing them to do the same. It will eventually mean more 3 rail equipment actually not available (US equipment).
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
Offline taliesin  
#12 Posted : 24 July 2015 18:38:05(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
Most would want one or the other, I certainly would not want to pay more for a more complicated and possibly compromised engine with features that I would never use, three rail does me fine, cheers Rob
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Offline mrmarklin  
#13 Posted : 24 July 2015 19:47:56(UTC)
mrmarklin

United States   
Joined: 27/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 890
Location: Burney, CA
The real problem with this is that DC and Three rail use differing flanges.

We run in a modular environment on the ETE layout, and this is an issue in terms of reliability.
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
Offline Hackcell  
#14 Posted : 24 July 2015 21:55:53(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
Originally Posted by: mrmarklin Go to Quoted Post
The real problem with this is that DC and Three rail use differing flanges.

We run in a modular environment on the ETE layout, and this is an issue in terms of reliability.


Somehow ESU figured out how to deal with that issue without exchanging the wheels.

Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
Offline PJMärklin  
#15 Posted : 25 July 2015 06:33:16(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
There's always a compromise somewhere.


I also agree, even with other brand "3 rails"

Over the years on some occasions I have bought a non-marklin "3 rail" when I particularly wanted a model which was not made by M.
Whilst they have all "worked", most do feature some compromise which has been a little disappointing.

I must say however that my last venture into this area, a Piko DB 219 ("UBoat"), was a faultless exception.


Regards,

PJ
Offline Goofy  
#16 Posted : 25 July 2015 07:49:43(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: mrmarklin Go to Quoted Post
The real problem with this is that DC and Three rail use differing flanges.

We run in a modular environment on the ETE layout, and this is an issue in terms of reliability.


Yes...when we are talking about other brands models.
ESU do produce wheels,that fits for the two and three rails.
If ESU decides to start produce wagons too,they will put all wagons with the same wheels flanges.
Simple to understand,ESU do hold to the NEM 310 wheels as standard.
Märklin use NEM 340.
But you can also run with the NEM 310 wheels on the Märklin tracks.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Purellum  
#17 Posted : 25 July 2015 07:55:01(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Quote:
If ESU decides to start produce wagons too, they will put all wagons with the same wheels flanges.


Yes, and then most Märklin users will want to change the wheel sets anyway, if the use detection on the layout.

Unless of course, ESU mounts a resistor in all axles, which most 2-railers then wants to remove.

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline Goofy  
#18 Posted : 25 July 2015 08:10:22(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Quote:
If ESU decides to start produce wagons too, they will put all wagons with the same wheels flanges.


Yes, and then most Märklin users will want to change the wheel sets anyway, if the use detection on the layout.

Unless of course, ESU mounts a resistor in all axles, which most 2-railers then wants to remove.

Per.

Cool


Useless to use resistor in all axles,if not ESU do offer the wheels as special.
Yes Märklin users CAN CHANGE to non-isolated wheels,if they want to use detection on the layout with the three rail.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#19 Posted : 25 July 2015 08:29:33(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mrmarklin Go to Quoted Post
The real problem with this is that DC and Three rail use differing flanges.

We run in a modular environment on the ETE layout, and this is an issue in terms of reliability.
Märklin use identical wheelsets for two-rail and three-rail versions of TRAXX, Ludmilla, EuroRunner, V 80.

Do you have problems with those?

Märklin already have wheelsets for universal locos, and they also have the decoders. They only need a switching mechanism.

Unified parts for Märklin and Trix reduce their production costs. A single ref. number for an "AC/DC" version would reduce logistics costs.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Purellum  
#20 Posted : 25 July 2015 10:50:21(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Quote:
Useless to use resistor in all axles


No, not if you know how to do it, and have the right equipment.

Of course it won't work with relays.

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
Offline RayF  
#21 Posted : 25 July 2015 21:53:54(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mrmarklin Go to Quoted Post
The real problem with this is that DC and Three rail use differing flanges.

We run in a modular environment on the ETE layout, and this is an issue in terms of reliability.
Märklin use identical wheelsets for two-rail and three-rail versions of TRAXX, Ludmilla, EuroRunner, V 80.

Do you have problems with those?

....

.


These locomotives are bogie designs. The short wheel-base on bogies make them more tolerant of track standards.

A long wheelbase design like for example a two axle container car or a "Thunder-box" coach would be less likely to run well with a wheel-set that is not accurate to the relevant standard.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline H0  
#22 Posted : 25 July 2015 23:23:57(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
A long wheelbase design like for example a two axle container car or a "Thunder-box" coach would be less likely to run well with a wheel-set that is not accurate to the relevant standard.
This thread is about universal locomotives. While Märklin so far use universal wheelsets on two-truck locos only, ESU use them also for steamers like the new BR 94.5-17.

Even if this approach should not work for all rolling stock, it apparently does work for some rolling stock (Bo'Bo' and Co'Co' locos from Märklin/Trix).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline RayF  
#23 Posted : 26 July 2015 00:22:55(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
A long wheelbase design like for example a two axle container car or a "Thunder-box" coach would be less likely to run well with a wheel-set that is not accurate to the relevant standard.
This thread is about universal locomotives. While Märklin so far use universal wheelsets on two-truck locos only, ESU use them also for steamers like the new BR 94.5-17.

Even if this approach should not work for all rolling stock, it apparently does work for some rolling stock (Bo'Bo' and Co'Co' locos from Märklin/Trix).


I'm just giving these as an example.

BTW, will ESU's Br94 run on R1 track? No, I thought not....
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Shamu  
#24 Posted : 26 July 2015 03:33:05(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
Its pretty much a moot point to me, if I wanted to run 2 rail I would have chosen from the plethora of manufactures.

If I wanted the largest selection of loco's and rolling stock I would have chosen 2 rail.

However asides from a childhood desire for Marklin I wanted to run 3 rail not 2 so the choice was obvious. I have no desire to have 2 layouts ( 3 and 2 rail) so I see zero benefit in having "M" (or anyone) making dual purpose loco's.

Those that consistently seam to want or expect "M" to do things like the 2 rail brigade astound me, why buy or touch "M" in the first place Confused.

To each their own I guess Laugh.
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
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Offline H0  
#25 Posted : 26 July 2015 07:58:01(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
The ESU approach: digital locos with many features and prepared for two-rail and three-rail.

Märklin and others could choose a different approach.
Many Trix customers complain about factory-installed decoders in Trix locos - they want purely analogue locos.
Many Märklin customers complain about factory-installed decoders in Märklin locos - they want DCC or something else that Märklin don't provide yet.
Many Märklin and Trix customers complain about the sound of factory-installed decoders - they want better sound or quiet locos.

The approach could be: sell an analogue loco with speaker and NEM decoder socket, but without decoder. Yes, it won't run on three-rail without a decoder.

Advantages: a single ref. number for both rail systems. Customers who want analogue two-rail operation will be happy. Customers who want three-rail operation with ESU sound and ABC braking will be happy.
The friendly service-oriented dealer has new opportunities to show good individual service.

Only dreaming. Märklin won't do it. I think Roco and Fleischmann won't do it either.
Piko use two-rail wheelsets that do not work on Märklin C-track, so their wheels are far from ideal - not a good starting point.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Danlake  
#26 Posted : 26 July 2015 09:41:16(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,571
I am not an expert, but looking at these videos and already myself experienced issues with M-track turnouts derailment, I would hesitate buying anything that may or may not fit probably..

https://www.marklin-user...ets-and-C-Track-turnouts

Anyhow, the thread is an interesting discussion. The ideal would of course have been to have one common norm for HO scale regardless of manufactures.. But I guess it all comes down to a compromise between protypical design and sturdiness and reliability.

ESU locomotives are really nicely looking and impressive with their new design features. But also fairly expensive and the range is rather limiting...

Brgds - Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
Offline Goofy  
#27 Posted : 26 July 2015 10:01:59(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
A long wheelbase design like for example a two axle container car or a "Thunder-box" coach would be less likely to run well with a wheel-set that is not accurate to the relevant standard.
This thread is about universal locomotives. While Märklin so far use universal wheelsets on two-truck locos only, ESU use them also for steamers like the new BR 94.5-17.

Even if this approach should not work for all rolling stock, it apparently does work for some rolling stock (Bo'Bo' and Co'Co' locos from Märklin/Trix).


I'm just giving these as an example.

BTW, will ESU's Br94 run on R1 track? No, I thought not....


But Märklins curved track R1 is to tight.
ESU will solve the problem,if not less they report by saying:Sorry you need large curve tracks.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#28 Posted : 26 July 2015 10:11:34(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: Danlake Go to Quoted Post
I am not an expert, but looking at these videos and already myself experienced issues with M-track turnouts derailment, I would hesitate buying anything that may or may not fit probably..

https://www.marklin-user...ets-and-C-Track-turnouts

Anyhow, the thread is an interesting discussion. The ideal would of course have been to have one common norm for HO scale regardless of manufactures.. But I guess it all comes down to a compromise between protypical design and sturdiness and reliability.

ESU locomotives are really nicely looking and impressive with their new design features. But also fairly expensive and the range is rather limiting...

Brgds - Lasse


Märklin users complain about the C tracks geometry!
In fact they do derailment other companys products too!
Even if you have non-isolated wheels like Rocos,it won´t sometimes fits with the C tracks.
So this will says:Not always all models can use with the C tracks.
I have seen ESU multi locomotives use on the C tracks in the youtube.
It works fine and it has same trucks for the two rails.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Online kiwiAlan  
#29 Posted : 26 July 2015 13:03:56(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
A long wheelbase design like for example a two axle container car or a "Thunder-box" coach would be less likely to run well with a wheel-set that is not accurate to the relevant standard.
This thread is about universal locomotives. While Märklin so far use universal wheelsets on two-truck locos only, ESU use them also for steamers like the new BR 94.5-17.

Even if this approach should not work for all rolling stock, it apparently does work for some rolling stock (Bo'Bo' and Co'Co' locos from Märklin/Trix).


I'm just giving these as an example.

BTW, will ESU's Br94 run on R1 track? No, I thought not....


But Märklins curved track R1 is to tight.
ESU will solve the problem,if not less they report by saying:Sorry you need large curve tracks.



Marklin also make G1 locos that will not run on the tightest radius G1 track that Marklin makes. It is not a new phenomenon.

Offline Goofy  
#30 Posted : 26 July 2015 15:54:43(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
I notice about C tracks from Märklin and Trix.
Both of them do have same geometry on the tracks and live frog too.
The only difference are the height of the rail.
Märklin code 90
Trix code 83
Märklin and Trix locomotives do have same chassis and bogie.
The only difference are the height of the wheel flanges and to isolated or non-isolated wheels.
If Märklin do start with the multi locomotives,they will support NEM 310 wheels and add this in the ac locomotives.
However there is still some problem and it´s the tracks,which do have wrong live frog and guide/check rail.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Hackcell  
#31 Posted : 26 July 2015 19:34:20(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I notice about C tracks from Märklin and Trix.
Both of them do have same geometry on the tracks and live frog too.
The only difference are the height of the rail.
Märklin code 90
Trix code 83
Märklin and Trix locomotives do have same chassis and bogie.
The only difference are the height of the wheel flanges and to isolated or non-isolated wheels.
If Märklin do start with the multi locomotives,they will support NEM 310 wheels and add this in the ac locomotives.
However there is still some problem and it´s the tracks,which do have wrong live frog and guide/check rail.



MTH and ESU found a way to use the same wheel in both AC and DC locomotives: NEM 311, which is 99,95% similar than RP25 wheels. The only thing is the distance between flanges.
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
Offline Hackcell  
#32 Posted : 26 July 2015 19:37:51(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
A long wheelbase design like for example a two axle container car or a "Thunder-box" coach would be less likely to run well with a wheel-set that is not accurate to the relevant standard.
This thread is about universal locomotives. While Märklin so far use universal wheelsets on two-truck locos only, ESU use them also for steamers like the new BR 94.5-17.

Even if this approach should not work for all rolling stock, it apparently does work for some rolling stock (Bo'Bo' and Co'Co' locos from Märklin/Trix).


I'm just giving these as an example.

BTW, will ESU's Br94 run on R1 track? No, I thought not....


But Märklins curved track R1 is to tight.
ESU will solve the problem,if not less they report by saying:Sorry you need large curve tracks.



Marklin also make G1 locos that will not run on the tightest radius G1 track that Marklin makes. It is not a new phenomenon.



Marklin C R1 and R2 curves plainly suck. R3+ radius look better and allow larger wagons and locomotives to deal with it without any issues.
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
Offline Alsterstreek  
#33 Posted : 26 July 2015 19:57:15(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
Marklin C R1 and R2 curves plainly suck. R3+ radius look better and allow larger wagons and locomotives to deal with it without any issues.

Objection:

- Not everybody disposes of an entire basement.
- Out of sight, R1 is utmost space-saving and thus extremely helpful to turn trains around (hidden dogbone reverse loops, shadow station...) .
- Working with easements, coaches running over a R2 curve look better than on a wider radius curve without easements.
- When viewing a curve from the inside (even better: from below), even a train on a tight radius looks good.

Thus said, C-track geometry plus locos and rolling stock mastering the former are the only reason why I am in the HO business.

:o)
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Offline RayF  
#34 Posted : 26 July 2015 23:27:16(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Well said, Ak!

I don't like being told that my layout "plainly sucks". It gives me many hours of pleasure and allows me to run my collection of Marklin trains instead of being restricted to just keeping them in their boxes.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Hackcell  
#35 Posted : 27 July 2015 07:55:24(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Well said, Ak!

I don't like being told that my layout "plainly sucks". It gives me many hours of pleasure and allows me to run my collection of Marklin trains instead of being restricted to just keeping them in their boxes.


I did not mean to offend anybody or their layouts, perhaps the wording I used wasn't the best. If I did sound offensive (it seems that's the case) I apologize. I also feel upset when people criticizes my hobbies and they don't even have one.

At least in my case I had tons of issues with R1 and R2 curves, therefore for my specific case these radii "suck". It doesn't mean I contempt other persons' work by using these radii on their layouts.

And just for the record I don't have a whole basement for my layout. I wish I had but that's not the case.
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
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Offline H0  
#36 Posted : 27 July 2015 08:41:18(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
The question is whether Märklin should produce universal locomotives for two-rail and three-rail operation.

IMHO nobody wants Märklin to make only universal models. But since some models share more than 95% of parts between 2R and 3R, it would be just a small step to make some universal locos.


Compatibility with R1 is not the key question here. Universal locos could be limited to two-truck locos if steamers should make trouble with R1.

Märklin made several H0 models that are not fully compatible with R1 - and I think more such models will come in the future.

Off topic: I won't buy any more shortened coaches and I do not use R1 where passenger trains are meant to go.
Märklin made 303 mm coaches, but I don't think they will make more moulds for that length in the near future.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#37 Posted : 27 July 2015 08:54:21(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: rbw993 Go to Quoted Post
I have to agree with Ray. I am strictly 3 rail so it offers no benefit.


Likewise!
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Offline H0  
#38 Posted : 27 July 2015 09:19:17(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: rbw993 Go to Quoted Post
I have to agree with Ray. I am strictly 3 rail so it offers no benefit.
There is a potential benefit for Märklin. Well, higher profit for Märklin or lower prices for the customers. The benefit could be split between Märklin and the customers.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Goofy  
#39 Posted : 27 July 2015 09:55:03(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Tom(H0) has right.
Märklin should offer customer with bigger deal,by produce smarter locomotives like ESU.
Distance between wheel flanges are 14,0-14,2 mm which are standard both for three and two rail.
It´s normally today.
I have both Märklin and Trix same wheels and they show same distance,but they are isolated and non-isolated.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline mbarreto  
#40 Posted : 27 July 2015 15:59:14(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257

I voted for the multi-system locos. I don't see any problem for us (users/collectors/buyers) in a loco have more functionality.
At least it would be more practical.

I think the right way of having customers is by excellence of product and service, and in this perspective I don't think M* has anything to fear.
More than that, many model railroaders could easily test both systems and decide for which one to go. Maybe some 2-railers would find that it is much easier and trouble-free to setup a 3 rail layout than a 2 rail layout (specially for the less skilled ones).

And now let's think a little further, and go a little beyond what exists. M* (hope not others do it before...) could score if it moved to this. My suggestion is a multi-system loco that dynamically change from 3 to 2 rail operation and vice-versa. I think this is not patented yet, so M* can do it ))))))))))
Probably this would be of no widespread use, but it was something more advanced that could bring advantages in some situations. It would anyway have some benefits for those having both systems in the same layout that in the current days are running independently.

Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


Offline Goofy  
#41 Posted : 27 July 2015 17:09:51(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post

I voted for the multi-system locos. I don't see any problem for us (users/collectors/buyers) in a loco have more functionality.
At least it would be more practical.
And now let's think a little further, and go a little beyond what exists. M* (hope not others do it before...) could score if it moved to this. My suggestion is a multi-system loco that dynamically change from 3 to 2 rail operation and vice-versa. I think this is not patented yet, so M* can do it ))))))))))



ESU do have multi locomotives,but i´m not sure if they have patented this way.
Of course can Märklin decides by produce multi locomotives,but not the same way like ESU.
ESU do have micro switchable inside of the locomotives,when you pull off the pickup shoe,the micro switch make sure you convert to two rail at once.
So Märklin must solve in other way.
One good example is to use jumper in the PCB.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Goofy  
#42 Posted : 31 July 2015 08:52:31(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Three weeks left to vote!
I thought there should be more members to vote.
Perhaps it´s holiday for mostley of the members.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline mbarreto  
#43 Posted : 31 July 2015 09:53:02(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257

Probably for most Märklin fans, 2-rails is not important and so multi-system locos are not important too.
Off course for Märklin a decision on that is important, but for now they think "No" as we can see. Or better, as we don't see any Märklin multi-system loco. Anyway it seems that Märklin newly designed locos are not difficult to convert from 2-rails to 3-rails. The opposite is more expensive if you need buy wheels, that is what happens in most of the cases. It makes some sense from Märklin's perspective...
Long ago I really decide for 3-rails and all other systems are part of the world's desirable diversity.
To finish this post I would like to say that there are much better aspects of the hobby that are worth to think than if it is 2 or 3 rails.


Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Three weeks left to vote!
I thought there should be more members to vote.
Perhaps it´s holiday for mostley of the members.


Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline Goofy  
#44 Posted : 09 August 2015 15:03:32(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Thirteen days left by vote.
I´m quiet disappointed when there has only 32 so far did voted. Sad
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#45 Posted : 17 August 2015 09:27:15(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Five days left!
This poll question seems scaring Märklinist.
Only 37 voted... Blink
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#46 Posted : 20 August 2015 09:28:17(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Two days left!
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline river6109  
#47 Posted : 20 August 2015 12:02:31(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I do buy DC and AC locos but for a different reason, a.) HAG AC analog locos are to expensive to convert to digital so I buy DC locos and I do buy other DC locos just for the type of loco (E-loco) and run them from my overhead system.
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Nigel Packer  
#48 Posted : 20 August 2015 17:04:12(UTC)
Nigel Packer

United Kingdom   
Joined: 11/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 682
Location: Cheshire, UK
The universal locomotive for AC and DC, three-rail and two-rail, is a nice idea, but I haven't found it particularly reliable in practice with the ESU locos I have.

Here's a link to the ESU page where they promise a design fix for the Class 66/77 range of locos:

ESU Class 66/77 pick-up fix

I found that the recommended soldered solution could not be made to work, and I had to disable the switch feature inside the loco with super-glue. That did work!

But the promise from ESU for a proper solution has been on their web site for at least 18 months, and nothing has appeared.

And the V60 series from ESU is not quite universal, as some features are not supported on AC. My ESU V60 loco has very little traction, and can handle only two or three wagons, so I can't use it on my layout for the purpose for which I bought it.

As always when I've tried locos from other manufacturers, I end up deciding I'm better off with Märklin!

Nigel
Märklin collector since age 5.
H0 Collection from 1935 to today.
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Offline Goofy  
#49 Posted : 21 August 2015 00:05:32(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: Nigel Packer Go to Quoted Post
The universal locomotive for AC and DC, three-rail and two-rail, is a nice idea, but I haven't found it particularly reliable in practice with the ESU locos I have.

Here's a link to the ESU page where they promise a design fix for the Class 66/77 range of locos:

ESU Class 66/77 pick-up fix

I found that the recommended soldered solution could not be made to work, and I had to disable the switch feature inside the loco with super-glue. That did work!

But the promise from ESU for a proper solution has been on their web site for at least 18 months, and nothing has appeared.

And the V60 series from ESU is not quite universal, as some features are not supported on AC. My ESU V60 loco has very little traction, and can handle only two or three wagons, so I can't use it on my layout for the purpose for which I bought it.

As always when I've tried locos from other manufacturers, I end up deciding I'm better off with Märklin!

Nigel


It´s an problem with theirs weak motor at the model V60.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#50 Posted : 21 August 2015 19:13:00(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Last day to vote!
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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