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Offline river6109  
#1 Posted : 06 July 2015 14:29:05(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Hi, this is the second email I've send to Märklin finding out the impedance (ohm) of their loudspeakers and the answer came back, we are in the spare part department don't have to know this.
I've followed up with another question: does anybody else know ? the answer was: silent.

It tells me, everything is done automatically without any knowledge attached to it, like if you ask someone how much is 90x60, sorry can't help you I haven't got a calculator handy


regards.,

John

Edited by moderator 07 July 2015 03:41:46(UTC)  | Reason: Corrected spelling of the word "impedance"

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline Goofy  
#2 Posted : 06 July 2015 17:59:28(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
The sound speaker in my BR64 are E184 591.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#3 Posted : 06 July 2015 18:13:07(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
The sound speaker in my BR64 are E184 591.


It shows 8 ohm at 0,5 watts.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 06 July 2015 18:36:36(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Hi, this is the second email I've send to Märklin finding out the inpedence (ohm) of their loudspeakers and the answer came back, we are in the spare part department don't have to know this.
The old blue mfx sound decoders were made for speakers with 50 through 100 Ohms, the new mfx sound decoders (green or red) can handle 4 through 16 Ohms (with 16 Ohms you may not get the full volume).

So the impedance of the original speaker does not matter IMHO as long as you can get a fitting speaker with a suitable impedance.

The BR 94.5 is rather new, so 4 through 16 Ohms will be appropriate.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Goofy  
#5 Posted : 06 July 2015 20:22:22(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
the new mfx sound decoders (green or red) can handle 4 through 16 Ohms


My decoder is white.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 06 July 2015 20:30:26(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
the new mfx sound decoders (green or red) can handle 4 through 16 Ohms
My decoder is white.
mfx+. Same impedance as red or green decoders.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Webmaster  
#7 Posted : 06 July 2015 20:51:28(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
The early M mfx decoders from ESU had a high-impedance "ESU" speaker. I believe their own FX sound were 8 ohm, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I also think the first version of M's own mfx sound decoder used high impedance speakers, but I'm not 100% sure.

Nowadays, both M & ESU use 8 ohm speakers as I understand - please correct me again if I am wrong.
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline biedmatt  
#8 Posted : 06 July 2015 22:15:06(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
4 ohm is recommended for the ESU LokSound V4s.

That M can't state what impedence is needed for a specific loko does not surprise me. They would have known when the loko was new, but years later they probably have no way to tell unless they pull the part and look at the back of the speaker.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#9 Posted : 07 July 2015 00:52:18(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,639
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi,
Regards speakers, I purchased an MRC (from USA) sound decoder from a local dealer to wire into a 2 rail HO diesel set.
The set is a lash-up of A-B-A, so I wanted to use a single decoder with 3 speakers, one for each unit.

I sometimes purchase Marklin sound decoders, and I get a spare speaker in each box.
So I used two spare Marklin speakers in series with the MRC speaker, to make up the three.
It worked out well, but I think the M speakers are the same impedence.
As you say, it does not really matter, maybe you get muted sound if they don't exactly match.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline river6109  
#10 Posted : 07 July 2015 02:46:27(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
thank you all for your input, I think Matt hit nail on the head, they don't want to look at the speaker itself but it doesn't matter which way you look at it, to me it doesn't sound like a satisfactory spare part service,

ESU has warned in the past earlier sound decoders up to Version 3.5 used 8 ohm (correction = 100 ohm) and as mentioned before the latest Version 4 sound decoders use 4 ohm.


the Märklin sound decoder in question is red so I could use a 4 ohm ESU loudspeaker without damaging the decoder I just didn't want to ruin the sound decoder because the loco doesn't belong to me.

regards.,

John

Edited by user 07 July 2015 08:53:51(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 07 July 2015 07:20:28(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,249
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
ESU has warned in the past earlier sound decoders up to Version 3.5 used 8 ohm and as mentioned before the latest Version 4 sound decoders use 4 ohm.
Nope.

ESU decoders up to V3 (including 3.5) need 50 Ohms or more and will be destroyed by either 4 or 8 Ohm speakers.
ESU V4 decoders can handle speakers with 4 or 8 Ohms.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline river6109  
#12 Posted : 07 July 2015 08:52:26(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,614
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
ESU has warned in the past earlier sound decoders up to Version 3.5 used 8 ohm and as mentioned before the latest Version 4 sound decoders use 4 ohm.
Nope.

ESU decoders up to V3 (including 3.5) need 50 Ohms or more and will be destroyed by either 4 or 8 Ohm speakers.
ESU V4 decoders can handle speakers with 4 or 8 Ohms.



Tom, I don't know where this came from but you are correct, they are 100 ohms

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline kiwiAlan  
#13 Posted : 08 July 2015 17:43:22(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,067
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
4 ohm is recommended for the ESU LokSound V4s.

That M can't state what impedence is needed for a specific loko does not surprise me. They would have known when the loko was new, but years later they probably have no way to tell unless they pull the part and look at the back of the speaker.


Märklin employees handling service and spare parts do not need to know the speaker impedance. They only deal in spare part numbers. If a speaker is faulty then they look up the manual and go to the stores for the relevant spare part as given in the manual.

A customer wanting to buy a speaker needs to give them the spare part number (or the loco catalogue number so they can look up the spare parts catalogue). The service and spares section is not a source of any other technical information like what impedance the speaker has.

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Offline Goofy  
#14 Posted : 08 July 2015 20:36:02(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,985
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
4 ohm is recommended for the ESU LokSound V4s.

That M can't state what impedence is needed for a specific loko does not surprise me. They would have known when the loko was new, but years later they probably have no way to tell unless they pull the part and look at the back of the speaker.


Märklin employees handling service and spare parts do not need to know the speaker impedance. They only deal in spare part numbers. If a speaker is faulty then they look up the manual and go to the stores for the relevant spare part as given in the manual.

A customer wanting to buy a speaker needs to give them the spare part number (or the loco catalogue number so they can look up the spare parts catalogue). The service and spares section is not a source of any other technical information like what impedance the speaker has.



With ESU you get fully information about the speaker.
Better service...

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Webmaster  
#15 Posted : 08 July 2015 21:10:35(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
But ESU don't have zillions of historical mechanical spare parts to administer, and they are in the electronics business (with some very limited range of model loks too) so they can keep a better knowledge of their own products since they only have very few specialized items compared to the total Märklin/Trix/LGB operation...

The Märklin guys are getting better and better, but there is still a long way to go regarding complete product knowledge and it is some kind of Utopian thought that they should know all.

Must however add that Frank at the service department has been very helpful with tips/hints that have lead me to think about my "problems" one more time so I could find a solution myself.
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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Offline biedmatt  
#16 Posted : 08 July 2015 22:00:21(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
4 ohm is recommended for the ESU LokSound V4s.

That M can't state what impedence is needed for a specific loko does not surprise me. They would have known when the loko was new, but years later they probably have no way to tell unless they pull the part and look at the back of the speaker.


Märklin employees handling service and spare parts do not need to know the speaker impedance. They only deal in spare part numbers. If a speaker is faulty then they look up the manual and go to the stores for the relevant spare part as given in the manual.

A customer wanting to buy a speaker needs to give them the spare part number (or the loco catalogue number so they can look up the spare parts catalogue). The service and spares section is not a source of any other technical information like what impedance the speaker has.



Uh, yeah, I think we all understand that. My point is the only way someone at M could tell you the impedance of the speaker would be to go look at one in the parts bin. An engineer probably could have told you when they originally built the loko, but I doubt they would have that info at hand today.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline rorosha  
#17 Posted : 08 July 2015 22:55:05(UTC)
rorosha


Joined: 06/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: MECHANICSBURG PA USA
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
But ESU don't have zillions of historical mechanical spare parts to administer, and they are in the electronics business (with some very limited range of model loks too) so they can keep a better knowledge of their own products since they only have very few specialized items compared to the total Märklin/Trix/LGB operation...

The Märklin guys are getting better and better, but there is still a long way to go regarding complete product knowledge and it is some kind of Utopian thought that they should know all.

Must however add that Frank at the service department has been very helpful with tips/hints that have lead me to think about my "problems" one more time so I could find a solution myself.


The service department would have been the logical place to ask such a question.

I do not mean to call the parts people stupid in any way, many parts people are absolutely brilliant at their jobs. But I doubt if many of them know what impedance means, let alone care. It has absolutely no bearing on what they are hired to do.

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