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Offline sedgar2  
#1 Posted : 12 May 2015 23:21:32(UTC)
sedgar2

United States   
Joined: 06/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 48
Location: Virginia, King George
Well I've been here only a short time but the questions just keep coming. As I gain experience, I hope I can answer some others questions. I look forward to posting photos as I take up the hobby after a too long lay off.
Now to the question: Marklin wiring is very small gauge, below 22 gauge that I have run into in auto repair, how are others hadling wiring as far as neatness and keeping track of what operates what. I plan on using junction blocks wherever possible for lights and grounds. The table I'm worling with is particle board 3/4" thick and it doesn't take to nails or screws in and out many times. Anyone willing to share some tips and photos are always nice to see, Cheers, Thanks for the warm reception, Steve
Offline carlos.rivas.16752  
#2 Posted : 13 May 2015 00:37:30(UTC)
carlos.rivas.16752

Spain   
Joined: 08/04/2015(UTC)
Posts: 303
Location: Vigo, Spain
I hope I have understood you well...maybe this is what you´re looking for (easy to find at ebay Germany, just search for Kabelhalter, kabelbinder and klebehalter:

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

Regards
Carlos



My blog both in Spanish and English: https://grunewiesen1965.wordpress.com
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Offline SteamNut  
#3 Posted : 13 May 2015 00:43:27(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 488
Marklin sold staples to fasten wires, however it worked only for about 3 wires. I suggest you visit a electrical supply house and see what they have to offer as they deal with communication wire and they have some unique ways to organize and fasten them. I had the best intentions when I wired my layout but alas it turned into a rats nest (the plans of mice and men). The larger the layout the bigger the issue it becomes, in my experience, I wound up with 3 control boards, 9 circuits, almost 60 turnouts besides uncouplers ect. At least my control boards came out decent and no one looks under the table. Fred
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Offline sedgar2  
#4 Posted : 13 May 2015 03:16:17(UTC)
sedgar2

United States   
Joined: 06/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 48
Location: Virginia, King George
Originally Posted by: SteamNut Go to Quoted Post
Marklin sold staples to fasten wires, however it worked only for about 3 wires. I suggest you visit a electrical supply house and see what they have to offer as they deal with communication wire and they have some unique ways to organize and fasten them. I had the best intentions when I wired my layout but alas it turned into a rats nest (the plans of mice and men). The larger the layout the bigger the issue it becomes, in my experience, I wound up with 3 control boards, 9 circuits, almost 60 turnouts besides uncouplers ect. At least my control boards came out decent and no one looks under the table. Fred


Fred, I look under the table. Part of being anal ( hopefully not another word for arsheloch), LOL, Cheers, Steve
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Offline cookee_nz  
#5 Posted : 13 May 2015 10:57:11(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,949
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: sedgar2 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SteamNut Go to Quoted Post
Marklin sold staples to fasten wires, however it worked only for about 3 wires. I suggest you visit a electrical supply house and see what they have to offer as they deal with communication wire and they have some unique ways to organize and fasten them. I had the best intentions when I wired my layout but alas it turned into a rats nest (the plans of mice and men). The larger the layout the bigger the issue it becomes, in my experience, I wound up with 3 control boards, 9 circuits, almost 60 turnouts besides uncouplers ect. At least my control boards came out decent and no one looks under the table. Fred


Fred, I look under the table. Part of being anal ( hopefully not another word for arsheloch), LOL, Cheers, Steve


From one Steve to another....

I relate to this. If it's untidy, you know it's untidy whether you can normally see it or not.

There is a lot to be said for following the example Märklin set out with their own factory-layouts (see image example below)

I think most of us here would agree with a few basic guidelines to adhere to;

1: Use a consistent colour-code, and if possible, follow Märklin's own colours. For one thing, it looks great, but more importantly it makes troubleshooting a LOT easier.

2: Nice straight lines, evenly secured, allow spacing for adding additional circuits later.

3: Include some easy ways to test the circuits from underneath. You'll see that in the factory layouts, much use is made of the coloured plugs & sockets. These are great for trouble-shooting, but unfortunately can themselves become the source of the trouble if they work loose, become oxidised etc. On my own factory layout, it was almost completely non-operational after several years of storage. Around 90% of the electrical problems were solely due to bad plug connections and easily fixed. But there are many who do not like these connectors at all preferring to solder all the way - that is fine, but it will still help to be able to tap into the various circuits to confirm what you think is happening is actually working.

Although the image shows a base-board type of construction, if yours is a frame-type, you can still run nice straight lines and groups of cables by following supporting beams etc.

4: LABEL the wires. Even with colour coding it's still easy to become overwhelmed by a sea of wiring. Small white labels or tape wrapped around the wires and coded in some way so that at any point you can easily pick a single wire, and quickly identify both what it is connected to and it's purpose. Giving all your accessories, turnouts, signals etc a number will help with this. Yes, it will increase your wiring time to do this, but will considerably cut the time you may spend several months/years on looking for an elusive fault when the memory of just how you wired it and what goes where has long faded.

5: Avoid the tempation to add loose 'runners' as a temporary fix or addition - ok for short-term troubleshooting but if to be permanent secure the additional wires neatly and label.

Marklin's primary wiring colours are...

a: Brown - 'ground' or 'Masse' - this has traditionally been the metal track-bed for M-track, otherwise the out rails for K & C-Track
b: Red - Center Rail
c: Yellow - lighting & accessories
d: Blue - accessory control (solenoids etc) generally with a Green, Red or Orange plug,

Blue wires are generally used Red or Green plugs for the 'straight' or 'branch' operating aspect. For larger layouts it may help you to get some insulation tape or heat-shrink in red & green and add these as 'tracers' to the blue leads for easy identification on longer runs.

You can of course deviate from the colour codes for clarity, a good example being where there is the Blue wire for the Green aspect of accessories. You may find it easier to run actual green wire instead of the blue, leaving the blue for only the Red aspect (running red for that function could be mistaken for the Track Stud Red.

Grey is often used for track feedback.

The following sequence of colours is already used in many environments, the Resistor colour code being the most obvious but also the pattern for the multi-stranded flat computer cable

Black - free
Brown - Track ground (outer rails)
Red - Track Ctr / Catenary feed ** and also Stop/Branch for accessories (connectors only)
Orange - Signal caution
Yellow - Accessories/Lighting
Green - Go/Straight
Blue - Accessories
Violet - free
Grey - free
White - free

As for the gauge of wire, the rolls of wire Märklin sells are usually around #22 AWG, you may find this older thread of interest in this regard...

https://www.marklin-user...e-gauges.aspx#post341072

Generally, the longer the run, the higher you want the gauge to be to avoid losses.

Hope this helps somewhat

Regards

Steve Cook (Cookee)
cookee_nz attached the following image(s):
$(KGrHqJ,!n4FIpbW-FfRBSMhRdqPg!~~60_57.JPG
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline sedgar2  
#6 Posted : 13 May 2015 12:23:16(UTC)
sedgar2

United States   
Joined: 06/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 48
Location: Virginia, King George
Steve,

Thanks for the very detailed answer and photo. I'll keep the board posted as I muddle on. Cheers!
Offline SteamNut  
#7 Posted : 13 May 2015 15:15:20(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 488
What I was trying to convey in my post is that we can not be perfect in every aspect in this hobby but certainly we can try, The more practice one does the better one becomes. Certainly I will be better at wiring at my next layout (maybe I will hire a electrician BigGrin ). Some imperfections can be hidden until we get it better the next time. The layouts that I have seen on this and other forms does inspire me to be better. Best of luck to you!
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Offline sedgar2  
#8 Posted : 13 May 2015 16:07:11(UTC)
sedgar2

United States   
Joined: 06/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 48
Location: Virginia, King George
meant no harm, Fred, I was poking fun at me, Steve
Offline Alsterstreek  
#9 Posted : 13 May 2015 18:00:26(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
Switched to cat-proof design after repeated feline attacks: All cables encased.
Alsterstreek attached the following image(s):
cc.png
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Offline SteamNut  
#10 Posted : 13 May 2015 21:42:28(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 488
Originally Posted by: sedgar2 Go to Quoted Post
meant no harm, Fred, I was poking fun at me, Steve


No offence taken.
Offline ugeesta  
#11 Posted : 22 June 2015 03:44:35(UTC)
ugeesta


Joined: 08/04/2011(UTC)
Posts: 31
Location: Ohio
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Switched to cat-proof design after repeated feline attacks: All cables encased.


Smart.

I had a cantinary layout on my Z gauge but a feline came through and acted like Godzilla. She tore the cantinary to shreds.

My new layout has a hard lid that is velcro'd down so she can't get to the set.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#12 Posted : 22 June 2015 10:30:55(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: sedgar2 Go to Quoted Post
......how are others handling wiring as far as neatness........


I use a cable staple gun to secure cable underneath my layout. You can generally get half a dozen 22 gauge wires through one staple, and staples can be easily pulled out with a pair of pliers if a mistake is made. You do need a strong wrist and decent sized hands to use it, especially when firing upside down. My wrist is a bit small as are my hands, so sometimes I struggle to get enough leverage to be able to squeeze the handle down, but a gun is a quick and easy way to lay your cables out. Arrow make good quality guns, and they should be readily available at your hardware or electrical supply store.

UserPostedImage
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Offline Carim  
#13 Posted : 22 June 2015 11:12:49(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 649
Location: London
When I started to wire up my layout, I used double-sided sticky tape to hold wires in place on a temporary basis; when I was satisfied with the location of the wires I used the techniques mentioned above as well as hot glue to hold things in place. It might be useful to draw up a full wiring diagram at the design stage (really helps when you are underneath the layout ) or at least when you are finished so that you can refer to it when trouble-shooting or adding to the system.

Carim
Offline RayF  
#14 Posted : 23 June 2015 14:18:17(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I use the Marklin colour coding, modified to add green for the "other" blue feed to solenoid accessories.

I also keep the wiring for building and street lights seperate, using Violet for the live and black for the return.

I prepared a wiring diagram on my PC before I started to re-wire my layout. The original wiring was all temporary and I have replaced virtually all of it with neat wiring in straight lines. Some wires cut diagonally across the layout for convenience. This is not a problem.

My method of holding the wiring in place uses the common plastic cable clips available from all electrical shops. I use the smallest size and replace the nail with a Marklin C track screw which makes it easier to fasten upside down under the layout without using a hammer! These screws go easily into plywood without much force being needed.

One thing I'm not happy with is the use of Marklin distribution strips for the multiple common yellows and Browns. I find that the connections are not always positive, and in fact some plugs just fall out of the strips on their own. I'm thinking of replacing this system with a "ring main" approach where each yellow is fed from the previous one in a chain, and similarly for the browns.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline river6109  
#15 Posted : 23 June 2015 15:36:22(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: sedgar2 Go to Quoted Post
......how are others handling wiring as far as neatness........


I use a cable staple gun to secure cable underneath my layout. You can generally get half a dozen 22 gauge wires through one staple, and staples can be easily pulled out with a pair of pliers if a mistake is made. You do need a strong wrist and decent sized hands to use it, especially when firing upside down. My wrist is a bit small as are my hands, so sometimes I struggle to get enough leverage to be able to squeeze the handle down, but a gun is a quick and easy way to lay your cables out. Arrow make good quality guns, and they should be readily available at your hardware or electrical supply store.

UserPostedImage


Dave,

I'm lucky I've got an electric stapler and have used it since the time of time, about 30 years ago and still going strong, 1 finished up with a short and the second one broke and used the first one for spare parts. another advantage is you can use different length staplers. apparently the staples are no longer available and the l;ast time I've found someone who had a few packets left over and bought the lot and this should give me enough staples to finish my layout underneath the board.
I didn't just use it for securing wires but also stapled chicken wire and other stuff such as cork strips onto the board.



John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline river6109  
#16 Posted : 23 June 2015 15:44:00(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I use the Marklin colour coding, modified to add green for the "other" blue feed to solenoid accessories.

I also keep the wiring for building and street lights seperate, using Violet for the live and black for the return.

I prepared a wiring diagram on my PC before I started to re-wire my layout. The original wiring was all temporary and I have replaced virtually all of it with neat wiring in straight lines. Some wires cut diagonally across the layout for convenience. This is not a problem.

My method of holding the wiring in place uses the common plastic cable clips available from all electrical shops. I use the smallest size and replace the nail with a Marklin C track screw which makes it easier to fasten upside down under the layout without using a hammer! These screws go easily into plywood without much force being needed.

One thing I'm not happy with is the use of Marklin distribution strips for the multiple common yellows and Browns. I find that the connections are not always positive, and in fact some plugs just fall out of the strips on their own. I'm thinking of replacing this system with a "ring main" approach where each yellow is fed from the previous one in a chain, and similarly for the browns.


Ray, I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, my wiring has several circuits, 2 wires (digital for my ECoS), 2 wires for solenoids 18 Volt AC (brown and and yellow green), I'm just in the process of adding another 2 wires (brown and yellow) for lights AC 18 Volts (these include houses, station lights, street lights, station signs etc etc.) , later on if necessary I may separate the overhead from the middle track but at this stage all my locos, carriages with interior lights are working without any problems.

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline river6109  
#17 Posted : 23 June 2015 15:59:48(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I use the Marklin colour coding, modified to add green for the "other" blue feed to solenoid accessories.

I also keep the wiring for building and street lights seperate, using Violet for the live and black for the return.

I prepared a wiring diagram on my PC before I started to re-wire my layout. The original wiring was all temporary and I have replaced virtually all of it with neat wiring in straight lines. Some wires cut diagonally across the layout for convenience. This is not a problem.

My method of holding the wiring in place uses the common plastic cable clips available from all electrical shops. I use the smallest size and replace the nail with a Marklin C track screw which makes it easier to fasten upside down under the layout without using a hammer! These screws go easily into plywood without much force being needed.

One thing I'm not happy with is the use of Marklin distribution strips for the multiple common yellows and Browns. I find that the connections are not always positive, and in fact some plugs just fall out of the strips on their own. I'm thinking of replacing this system with a "ring main" approach where each yellow is fed from the previous one in a chain, and similarly for the browns.


Ray, I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, my wiring has several circuits, 2 wires (digital for my ECoS), 2 wires for solenoids 18 Volt AC (brown and and yellow green), I'm just in the process of adding another 2 wires (brown and yellow) for lights AC 18 Volts (these include houses, station lights, street lights, station signs etc etc.) , later on if necessary I may separate the overhead from the middle track but at this stage all my locos, carriages with interior lights are working without any problems.

the only different with my wiring is over the years I've added electronic components to the layout which required more and more wires and this over time has become a spaghetti junction which I will sort out in the near future.

I've never have been in favor by using C-track and using C-track as its main electricity supplier, although you save on wires even with my previous use (6021) I used 2 separate digital control Units (6020) for all my solenoids, e.g. signals and turnouts) this enabled me when there was short I was still able to change the turnouts after I've found out the solenoid mechanism were faulty (they suppose to turn the power off but kept on pumping power into the solenoids and burning out) (faulty soldering done by Märklin, grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr)


If I have a short today, which I had for several times it is very hard to find such a short, as I've mentioned before, a short short followed by a long short and than again a short short.

because I have not separated the braking module 3 isolation points: activating, braking and stop, I thought I didn't need the latter stop section because of my long braking section but what happened (Overhead section) some of the wires weren't isolated and since I've fixed it no more shorts have appeared.

John



https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by river6109
Offline Br502362  
#18 Posted : 23 June 2015 16:03:34(UTC)
Br502362

Finland   
Joined: 05/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 680
Location: Finland
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: sedgar2 Go to Quoted Post
......how are others handling wiring as far as neatness........


I use a cable staple gun to secure cable underneath my layout. You can generally get half a dozen 22 gauge wires through one staple, and staples can be easily pulled out with a pair of pliers if a mistake is made. You do need a strong wrist and decent sized hands to use it, especially when firing upside down. My wrist is a bit small as are my hands, so sometimes I struggle to get enough leverage to be able to squeeze the handle down, but a gun is a quick and easy way to lay your cables out. Arrow make good quality guns, and they should be readily available at your hardware or electrical supply store.

UserPostedImage


Dave,

I'm lucky I've got an electric stapler and have used it since the time of time, about 30 years ago and still going strong, 1 finished up with a short and the second one broke and used the first one for spare parts. another advantage is you can use different length staplers. apparently the staples are no longer available and the l;ast time I've found someone who had a few packets left over and bought the lot and this should give me enough staples to finish my layout underneath the board.
I didn't just use it for securing wires but also stapled chicken wire and other stuff such as cork strips onto the board.



John



I have used a staple gun also. If I remember right it is Rapid 30. You can buy different length staples and fine tune stapling force with them and with the stapler itself too. Simple to use as mentioned here ThumpUp

Cheers

Åke
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