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H0		#151 Posted : 19 February 2016 08:33:05(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: Deborail The question is not the nation where the product is manufactured, it is the standard to which it is manufactured. That is one of Märklin's problems. It seems Märklin products were and are made by various Chinese sub-contractors and the quality varies a lot. The main issue seems to be quality assurance - and this applies to Made in Germany, Made in Hungary, and Made in China. And I don't think they are moving in the right direction.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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AshleyH		#152 Posted : 19 February 2016 08:41:59(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/02/2008(UTC) Posts: 693 Location: Bournemouth, Dorset		Paris, I may have done this loco a dis-service as I chose it to illustrate my point. Overall, I am pleased with my loco, though I am aware of its limitations in terms of the fragility and the handrail issue. For a further example of the fragility, take a look at this eBay item. http://www.ebay.de/itm/M...872c0:g:szIAAOSwFNZWxKhU Essentially a new loco, but the side handrails have come away from the body. They may be like my front steps and handrails which are not fixed to the body, but are a light push fit. I post this not to criticise the loco, but just to make others aware of the need to hold it only by the cylinders, side frame and tender. The positives of the loco are that it has extremely smooth and quiet running qualities, it has an MFX Plus decoder, which is my only loco do have this, and the paint finish is excellent. Oh, and it has excellent sound too! There is always the 26603 train pack due this year with a similar G5/5 loco and rolling stock. It could be that Marklin will have solved the handrail issue with this second batch. I have a number of Roco locos that have similar bendy plastic handrails, it is a problem with the acetal type of plastic used. If you use a rigid plastic, then the handrails are vulnerable to snap when handled. The solution of course is to stick to metal handrails and also fix them firmly to the loco body. So yes, it is not 'where' or even really 'who' but rather 'how' our model trains are manufactured. Best Regards Ashley
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waorb		#153 Posted : 11 April 2016 19:09:10(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 868 Location: Brazil		Hello! Let me give 2 more cents on this thread. Long story short, I had just received a brand new 36243 (replaced from a defective one that I bought in Germany). I didn't realized what was on the first box, but this one have a printed 'made in china' statement - not just a sticker. Cheers, Walter
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petestra		#154 Posted : 11 April 2016 19:19:41(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 5,824 Location: Leesburg,VA.USA		That's quite disturbing to me, Walter. I hope this Lok works well for you. I think you should send Märklin an email about this via their website contact. Let them know you don't like this. Peter
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mike c		#155 Posted : 11 April 2016 20:43:29(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 7,890 Location: Montreal, QC		I think that there are models that are Maerklin products and there may be other models that are sourced (licensed) by Maerklin from other companies. The Kof diesel was sourced from Brawa. The G2000 may be another case of a product made by a third party and marketed by Maerklin. I have no problem with them making product in China or elsewhere, but it should be clearly indicated and they must ensure that the Maerklin quality remains. I was very happy to see that the C-Track from my first digital set was supposedly ok. I am now seeing little pieces breaking off all of the time. I certainly hope that we will not see the same thing from other plastics (loks, coaches, cars) over time. I had several open freight cars (from 29516/47889/26730) where the little pins that hold the brown top to the black chassis have all broken in use. I replaced on with the shell from a 4465 to have the chassis with close couplers, but the rest are scrap unless I can find a new way to affix the body to the chassis. Regards Mike C
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H0		#156 Posted : 11 April 2016 21:39:53(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: mike c The Kof diesel was sourced from Brawa. Just the one and only Köf II with a four-digit ref. number. Those with a five-digit ref. number are a completely different mould. Originally Posted by: mike c I certainly hope that we will not see the same thing from other plastics (loks, coaches, cars) over time. Brittle plastic on coaches (Märklin), freight cars (Märklin) and locos (Roco) is around for a while now. Some people try to add lights to their Märklin coaches - and end up with a pile of plastic pieces. But that's off topic - I think the brittle coaches have Made in Germany engraved. Just like most brittle C track pieces have Made in Germany engraved.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Mark_1602		#157 Posted : 11 April 2016 22:41:03(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC) Posts: 704 Location: Luxembourg		Originally Posted by: mike c The G2000 may be another case of a product made by a third party and marketed by Maerklin. Regards Mike C Hi Mike, I agree with you that the country of origin should be printed on every box, but Märklin's Swiss G 2000 was painted and assembled in Hungary, as episode 75 of Märklin TV showed us last year (about 5 minutes and 20 seconds from the start of the video): Märklin TV 75 G 2000 in Györ The problem with the G 2000 is actually the shrill and unnatural motor sound that's unlike a diesel locomotive, as you can hear in this German video review on YouTube. The sound is discussed about 6 minutes after the start: Modellbahn-Neuheiten Märklin G 2000 Best regards, Mark
		Best regards, Mark I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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kiwiAlan		#158 Posted : 11 April 2016 23:33:44(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,101 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot		Originally Posted by: mike c I think that there are models that are Maerklin products and there may be other models that are sourced (licensed) by Maerklin from other companies. The Kof diesel was sourced from Brawa. Only the original 3680 was done in association with Brawa. The relationship fell apart after that and my understanding is the 368xx ones are Marklin designed and built.
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Iamnotthecrazyone		#159 Posted : 12 April 2016 04:30:25(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,044		Originally Posted by: Deborail If Marklin can produce products in China, to the same standard of those produced in Germany, then the issue of where it made is not relevant. Leaving prior knowledge of the quality of a product and provided something is offered within a reasonable price difference I'll have no doubt I will choose a German or Japanese made product over a Chinese. Call it prejudice or whatever but my experience in life has shown me that following that rule I am likely to be more satisfied. German Car manufacturers that lied on emissions claims are excluded forever Please do not get me wrong, I do have piles of Chinese stuff and most of that is excellent stuff. I even have some bad quality things but at the price I've paid I have no complains, I knew what the deal was. My problem starts when prices don't match quality and these days you don't discover the quality until you bought the item. It is not a surprise so many members say they will not pre-order until reviews are available or you can see the item in person. What's wrong with transparency why do they have to hide it? Electrotren says "made in China", Bachmann and lots of others say so too, it hasn't stopped me buying them. Perhaps Marklin itself know they are trading of the standards of production for revenue. There were several Marklin locos I would have like to buy but I have passed when I saw the quality vs price ratio. It's fine with me they make money but if I am going to pay the asking prices for new engines I want value, I don't find it that often.
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waorb		#160 Posted : 12 April 2016 04:45:56(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 868 Location: Brazil		Originally Posted by: petestra That's quite disturbing to me, Walter. I hope this Lok works well for you. I think you should send Märklin an email about this via their website contact. Let them know you don't like this. Peter Hello Peter! Well, my iPhone was also made in China, and this is a no-end story... others also said that they have lot of chinese stuffs... I have it either... I think Märklin is already aware of that, their customers prefer products `made in europe` instead of China... maybe it`s a culture problem... IMHO, the brand is our warranty that the product is supposed to be at certain level of quality. But... yes, seems that the rule of quality is lowering by the price you paid for. And if Märklin do not take care of this, the feeling of Märklin quality could be lowered... And of course, we don`t want this. Cheers, Walter
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H0		#161 Posted : 12 April 2016 08:39:38(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: Iamnotthecrazyone What's wrong with transparency why do they have to hide it? Märklin fans want to believe that production in China stopped years ago. "Made in China" comes as a shock. I cannot understand why they suddenly use these shocking boxes for 36243 sold in Germany. Personally I prefer transparency. In an ideal world all web shops would show the "Made in ..." before you make a purchase decision. It seems not even US laws require this.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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MaerklinLife		#162 Posted : 12 April 2016 11:11:42(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC) Posts: 490		Everything else is made in China. Alle the other brands does it as well. People complain about the prices, people complain about the lack in quality, and people complain about things being made in China. First of all, China is not synonymous with bad quality. Bad management of production is - but that can happen anywhere. Some models still disappoints me when they turn out to be mediocre compared to the competing brand around the same price. E.g. the BR 245 which in the PIKO version costs a bit more than the Märklin version, but seems to be of better quality (motor, and more detailed printing), yes plastic, but I do not care about that, short coupler kinematics and PluX22 plug, which is awesome. 20 euro more. Made in China - of course - and still better. Some people seem to be all excited about a new model, and they love it and all the features. Then they realize that it is made in China, and suddenly all the love goes away. I do not get that, why is this information so disappointing? You should love the model for the beauty that it is, knowing about the production should not change that. My guess would be that the majority of customers simply does not care where the model is made, as long as price, quality and looks match their expectations. When it does not, blame the manufacturer, but do not blame China. You get what you pay for - and so does the factory.
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river6109		#163 Posted : 12 April 2016 11:16:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,705 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square		New Märklin ICE train made in Antarctica
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river6109		#164 Posted : 12 April 2016 11:32:03(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,705 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square		Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Everything else is made in China. Alle the other brands does it as well. People complain about the prices, people complain about the lack in quality, and people complain about things being made in China. First of all, China is not synonymous with bad quality. Bad management of production is - but that can happen anywhere. Some models still disappoints me when they turn out to be mediocre compared to the competing brand around the same price. E.g. the BR 245 which in the PIKO version costs a bit more than the Märklin version, but seems to be of better quality (motor, and more detailed printing), yes plastic, but I do not care about that, short coupler kinematics and PluX22 plug, which is awesome. 20 euro more. Made in China - of course - and still better. Some people seem to be all excited about a new model, and they love it and all the features. Then they realize that it is made in China, and suddenly all the love goes away. I do not get that, why is this information so disappointing? You should love the model for the beauty that it is, knowing about the production should not change that. My guess would be that the majority of customers simply does not care where the model is made, as long as price, quality and looks match their expectations. When it does not, blame the manufacturer, but do not blame China. You get what you pay for - and so does the factory. I fully agrre with this, it is the company who asks for products to be made in a foreign country, it is the company who decides what materals are to be used, it is the company who decides what quality materials are to be used, it is the company who decides what molds are to be used and the list goes on and on. unless you've got a qualtity control system in place anything could happen and we could finish up with anything from quality to crap. when I look what comes out of China and the prices our local Companies ask for one knows the profit margins they are adding onto it because with the internet you can get items direct from China at 10th of the price and most the time higher. the demands for locos and carriages to be produced in China is so high most of them can't keep up with the demands, so if you think that your loco or carriage in the future will be produced in your country you have to redirect your thought to reality as the writer above pointed out. there are enough small manufacturers around Europe which are getting closer and closer to the main stram market of manufacturers but with one big difference, they are made out of brass and handmade. to be quite honest I haven't seen many locos made by Märklin lately whereas I can say yes this is quality and yes this is worth it. my personal view is to buy a loco for nearly Euro 500.00 you have to be nuts, just for the sake of owning a Märklin loco, either slightly weathered, one time series or limited edition and what I have seen on this forum there aren't manyn who have an endless money pit John
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RayF		#165 Posted : 12 April 2016 14:27:23(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,839 Location: Gibraltar, Europe		There are so many definitions of quality that it makes no sense to just use the word on it's own. Are we talking about quality of design, or assembly, or construction? If we look at the precision of the detail and accuracy to prototype there is no doubt that modern models from Marklin are far ahead of the classic 1950s and 1960s stuff. One definition of quality is the minimization of errors or faults. This is the main thrust when we talk about quality control in a factory. Unfortunately the rate of faults goes up with the level of detail added to a product and the number of features incorporated. We could return to the "quality " of old Marklin by simplifying the detail and eliminating complicated electronics such as digital control, sound, etc. Do we really want that? Meanwhile I think we should stop whining on and on about Marklin making things in China. If you don't like it just buy from another manufacturer that makes them in Germany (If you can find one!)
		Ray Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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H0		#166 Posted : 12 April 2016 14:37:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Everything else is made in China. Alle the other brands does it as well. not all brands do it, Roco and Fleischmann gave up production in China several months ago. Roco and Fleischmann are also resellers, so you may still find some China stuff in their catalogues (e.g. power supplies).
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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H0		#167 Posted : 12 April 2016 14:39:37(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: RayF If you don't like it just buy from another manufacturer that makes them in Germany (If you can find one!) Maybe switch to Piko G gauge.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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MaerklinLife		#168 Posted : 12 April 2016 14:41:31(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC) Posts: 490		Originally Posted by: H0 not all brands do it, Roco and Fleischmann gave up production in China several months ago. ...months ago. That's rather recently. I bet you, that they receive several parts from China anyway. Assembly in Europe, perhaps, but completely made in Europe - I highly doubt that. Originally Posted by: H0 Roco and Fleischmann are also resellers, so you may still find some China stuff in their catalogues (e.g. power supplies). Yeah, same as everybody else. My point is: It should not matter. For some reason it does, and for some reason, people seem to think bad of models "just because" they are made in China. That is rather shallow in my opinion.
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petestra		#169 Posted : 12 April 2016 16:46:44(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 5,824 Location: Leesburg,VA.USA		I have nothing at all against China or Chinese people but I lost two beloved pets back in 2005 due to plastics which were used as fillers in pet food. As most of you know I treat my pets like family. From then on I made sure that none of my pets' foods came out of China. As you can tell this left a bitter feeling in me. Peter
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jvuye		#170 Posted : 12 April 2016 19:31:32(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC) Posts: 2,881 Location: South Western France		Originally Posted by: petestra I have nothing at all against China or Chinese people but I lost two beloved pets back in 2005 due to plastics which were used as fillers in pet food. As most of you know I treat my pets like family. From then on I made sure that none of my pets' foods came out of China. As you can tell this left a bitter feeling in me. Peter I am with you Peter Lost two beautiful Labradors too because of that melamine laced soy they had delivered to pet food manufacturers.
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Thewolf		#171 Posted : 12 April 2016 21:28:33(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,035 Location: Saint Mathias dur Richelieu-Canada		Originally Posted by: petestra I have nothing at all against China or Chinese people but I lost two beloved pets back in 2005 due to plastics which were used as fillers in pet food. As most of you know I treat my pets like family. From then on I made sure that none of my pets' foods came out of China. As you can tell this left a bitter feeling in me. Peter I am with you Peter There is no question that I give of the food of China to my Ti-loup. All which comes from China as food is banished at our home.I read too much affairs ... I respect the Chinese people... but but... Thewolf
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MalinAC		#172 Posted : 13 April 2016 08:09:29(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/05/2014(UTC) Posts: 839 Location: DONEGAL, CARNDONAGH		What has Chinese pet food got to do with Marklin made in China ?
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H0		#173 Posted : 13 April 2016 08:32:51(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: MalinAC What has Chinese pet food got to do with Marklin made in China ? Impure food killing animals is much worse than impure zinc leading to zincpest. But it's coming from the same state of mind. Human rights and working conditions are other aspects people do worry about - at least some people. How would your work life balance be if 60 hours of work per week don't earn enough money for rent and food? Why Märklin? For years they bash China (bad quality, delayed deliveries, damaged moulds). But they always try other Chinese manufacturers. The China bashing made people believe that "Made in China" ended long ago. Those people are not happy to see the China labels on Märklin boxes. Nobody is surprised to see "Made in China" on a Liliput box.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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MalinAC		#174 Posted : 13 April 2016 08:50:48(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/05/2014(UTC) Posts: 839 Location: DONEGAL, CARNDONAGH		Are you saying the Chinese are to blame for the Marklin locos that had zincpest
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Iamnotthecrazyone		#175 Posted : 13 April 2016 09:43:55(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,044		Originally Posted by: MalinAC What has Chinese pet food got to do with Marklin made in China ? It's got a lo to do with. When they do things like this to food with complete disregard of human life what can be expected of other manufacturing processes. Just to name a few scandals: Glow in the dark pork, toxic toothpaste, melamine in milk products, exploding watermelons, bean sprouts laced with sodium nitrite, heavy metal rice, Car gaskets with asbestos, brake pads with asbestos, Thomas train with leaded paint, Fire causing USB chargers, Hepatitis exported in berries, And I am sure that's the tip of the iceberg. It's as mentioned above a state of mind which requires a total disconnection with the word responsible.
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Iamnotthecrazyone		#176 Posted : 13 April 2016 09:56:12(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,044		Originally Posted by: H0 Originally Posted by: Iamnotthecrazyone What's wrong with transparency why do they have to hide it? Märklin fans want to believe that production in China stopped years ago. "Made in China" comes as a shock. I cannot understand why they suddenly use these shocking boxes for 36243 sold in Germany. Personally I prefer transparency. In an ideal world all web shops would show the "Made in ..." before you make a purchase decision. It seems not even US laws require this. 1) I don't think I've ever bought it, if they can't print "made" in Germany, not even a "made in EU" then that says a lot. 2) Ok they aren't terrific but I don't really love any boxes that came -including- the window boxes from the 70's with the exception of the new retro style. 3)May be I am missing some earlier post, I thought they did but probably the vast majority of imports in the US is not done trough the official channels.
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river6109		#177 Posted : 13 April 2016 09:58:56(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,705 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square		there are lot oc countries these days either through trade free zones whereas the import of goods is no longer controlled by governments but individual companies and it is up to the companies to make sure the product they import is free of any dangers, poisining, contaminations etc. cetc. so containers of products arrives in the country, gets put on the shelves and it is only afterwards when any symptoms appear and this is hwo companies fall into a big hole. John
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MalinAC		#178 Posted : 13 April 2016 09:58:57(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/05/2014(UTC) Posts: 839 Location: DONEGAL, CARNDONAGH		I know about all the things you mentioned but all Im saying is if you feel the quality is not in the locos then dont buy them. I have locos made in China and have no trouble with them. Untill I do get problems its no big real.
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river6109		#179 Posted : 13 April 2016 10:01:03(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,705 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square		Originally Posted by: MalinAC I know about all the things you mentioned but all Im saying is if you feel the quality is not in the locos then dont buy them. I have locos made in China and have no trouble with them. Untill I do get problems its no big real. who are you referring to ? it would help
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MalinAC		#180 Posted : 13 April 2016 10:11:08(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/05/2014(UTC) Posts: 839 Location: DONEGAL, CARNDONAGH		This is my last word on this subject. Until I start to have trouble with locos made in China I have no problem with them. This is the end. Goodbye
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Iamnotthecrazyone		#181 Posted : 13 April 2016 10:37:24(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,044		Originally Posted by: MalinAC This is my last word on this subject. Until I start to have trouble with locos made in China I have no problem with them. This is the end. Goodbye Feel free, nobody is asking you not to buy them. I have a lot myself it that doesn't mean I won't keep an open mind about it, neither that I will defend Marklin when they produce models that don't meet my expectations especially at the prices they charge for them. Durability is only one concern, the finish look is more important to me and some leave me desiring a lot more. There are also the running characteristics too. If they were $150 models ok no problem but they are not. As I've said before, when someone expect me to pay $500 or so for a loco I expect value that is from Marklin or any other manufacturer there is a lot of competition around and if Marklin won't be loyal to it's customers giving them what they want and coming clean about how things are done then they shouldn't be surprised when customers aren't loyal to Marklin anymore.
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petestra		#182 Posted : 13 April 2016 12:27:27(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 5,824 Location: Leesburg,VA.USA		Originally Posted by: MalinAC What has Chinese pet food got to do with Marklin made in China ? It shows a total lack of trust. They killed my pets! They need to learn how to be an honest global trader. Peter
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H0		#183 Posted : 13 April 2016 13:55:22(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: MalinAC Are you saying the Chinese are to blame for the Marklin locos that had zincpest I think in the last century they made some zincpest locos in Göppingen - short time after the war. But I assume that all zincpest cases we saw for "Märklin" items from this century were made in China. At least 3 locos, several US freight cars, at least 1 DB freight car - was there something else?
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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RayF		#184 Posted : 13 April 2016 13:58:16(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,839 Location: Gibraltar, Europe		I thought at least one of the zincpest affected locos was made in Gyor, but I'm probably remembering it wrong.
		Ray Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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H0		#185 Posted : 13 April 2016 15:10:53(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: RayF I thought at least one of the zincpest affected locos was made in Gyor Märklin always tell us that all metal parts needed in Győr are made in Göppingen.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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nitramretep		#186 Posted : 13 April 2016 16:25:32(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2015(UTC) Posts: 207 Location: lower hudson valley, ny		If Marklin is making locomotives in China then there is no difference between Marklin, Brawa and the other manufacturers. I would like to see a "Country of Origin" or "Manufactured in" labels BEFORE I purchase the item. I was under the impression that Marklin was making items in the EU, in fact if I remember correctly there was some fan fair regarding Marklin's new manufacturing plants in the EU. I have no interest in supporting the Chinese economy at the expense of European workers and others.
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H0		#187 Posted : 13 April 2016 17:06:42(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: nitramretep If Marklin is making locomotives in China then there is no difference between Marklin, Brawa and the other manufacturers. I dare say that Märklin is mostly made in EU with some items being made in China. With Brawa and ESU I assume that most items are made in China. Transparency about where things are made could be better.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Leitner		#188 Posted : 14 April 2016 11:54:26(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 274		I import products from China and I travel to Asia 5-6 times per year... Frankly playing down "Made in China" as "low quality" is definitely wrong, everything depends on the willing of the customer (in this case Maerklin) to invest money in quality check and have a product of higher quality (and higher price) rather then going for the cheaper one. Again, China can provide very high quality products, what does matter is the willing of the customer to pay a premium and get them rather then think short-term and buy a terrible product for a cheap price. I think that SIMBA, the owner of Maerklin, has plenty of connection to chinese factory and I don't think quality will be a big issue even if the product has "Made in China" written on it. For what concern jobs... Well, I would blame more the taxation levels which has been reached in the EU rather that companies which are on the market and need to get their business going.
		Ep. III (My layout is set in 1962). I collect mainly DSB, DB and SBB but I'm quite... Open minded. I'm quite a big collector of NOHAB lok :)
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hxmiesa		#189 Posted : 14 April 2016 13:03:31(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,520 Location: Spain		Originally Posted by: Leitner I import products from China and I travel to Asia 5-6 times per year... For what concern jobs... Well, I would blame more the taxation levels which has been reached in the EU rather that companies which are on the market and need to get their business going. If it is illegal to use certain materials and methods in production in the western world, if workers are required to be insured and have pension plans, etc to work, if a factory must protect the environment from contamination, etc. -then... then it seems totally incomprehensible (to me) that we allow import, distribution and sale of products which were produced without these considerations. These products are in fact illegal, according to some westerne laws. Regarding contaminated pet-food (and many other products); where are the FDA (and similiar) approvals? How can this shit be distributed and sold in a country, without a seal of approval from a governamental trusted association? FCC, DIN, GS, TÜV, Underwriters Laboratories., etc... Each country still has its own certification agencies. Why is the political will to protect our jobs, health and environment not present??? Of course Märklin has to manufacture in China today, because everybody else do it, in order to stay "competitive". But only because we (those who decide the faith of our countries) permits it...
		Best regards Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain") http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Leitner		#190 Posted : 15 April 2016 01:01:06(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 274		@hxmiesa, it doesn't work like that. True, working condition are not the same as in Europe, but that's the only difference. When it comes to materials and quality there are rules which have to be respected if you don't want to see your goods seized at the custom, CE certifications, RoHS and other certifications are required for every products it enters in the EU so your point is invalid...
		Ep. III (My layout is set in 1962). I collect mainly DSB, DB and SBB but I'm quite... Open minded. I'm quite a big collector of NOHAB lok :)
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H0		#191 Posted : 15 April 2016 08:31:36(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: Leitner When it comes to materials and quality there are rules which have to be respected if you don't want to see your goods seized at the custom, CE certifications, RoHS and other certifications are required for every products it enters in the EU so your point is invalid... And how do these "CE certifications" work? The importer or the manufacturer print "CE" onto each item. No testing, no certification. "CE" means nothing. Sometimes it turns out later that the "CE" sign was used illegally, but most of the time it never gets tested. German computer magazine "c't" made a test and bought items from Chinese sellers on amazon and such. None of the items complied with all EU requirements - and some had a high risk of electric shock. Things get more expensive if the importer takes CE requirements serious or searches for a manufacturer who takes them serious. And I assume Märklin do that. Märklin also take FCC requirements serious. You can see that in every new Märklin manual: Quote: Due to different legal requirements regarding electro-magnetic compatibility, this item may be used in the USA only after separate certification for FCC compliance and an adjustment if necessary. Use in the USA without this certification is not permitted and absolves us of any liability. If you should want such certification to be done, please contact us – also due to the additional costs incurred for this.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Leitner		#192 Posted : 15 April 2016 09:34:54(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 274		Originally Posted by: H0 Originally Posted by: Leitner When it comes to materials and quality there are rules which have to be respected if you don't want to see your goods seized at the custom, CE certifications, RoHS and other certifications are required for every products it enters in the EU so your point is invalid... And how do these "CE certifications" work? The importer or the manufacturer print "CE" onto each item. No testing, no certification. "CE" means nothing. Sometimes it turns out later that the "CE" sign was used illegally, but most of the time it never gets tested. German computer magazine "c't" made a test and bought items from Chinese sellers on amazon and such. None of the items complied with all EU requirements - and some had a high risk of electric shock. Things get more expensive if the importer takes CE requirements serious or searches for a manufacturer who takes them serious. And I assume Märklin do that. Märklin also take FCC requirements serious. You can see that in every new Märklin manual: Quote: Due to different legal requirements regarding electro-magnetic compatibility, this item may be used in the USA only after separate certification for FCC compliance and an adjustment if necessary. Use in the USA without this certification is not permitted and absolves us of any liability. If you should want such certification to be done, please contact us – also due to the additional costs incurred for this. Well, CE requirements are very strict and should be issued by a chinese agency recognized also in Europe, of course everybody can put a sign on a box but it's up to the custom to check, there's no freeflow of container from China to Europe, the containers are checked and further informations are asked if needed. For what concern the chinese sellers on Amazon, the goods still pass through the custom... It's always up to the custom to check if everything is fine... Things get more expensive if importer takes CE requirements serious? Well, depends, if you compare it to a terrible illegal product yes, is more expensive, if you compare it to a similar product made in Europe it will be cheaper.
		Ep. III (My layout is set in 1962). I collect mainly DSB, DB and SBB but I'm quite... Open minded. I'm quite a big collector of NOHAB lok :)
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H0		#193 Posted : 15 April 2016 09:59:54(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: Leitner Well, CE requirements are very strict and should be issued by a chinese agency recognized also in Europe Says who? Wikipedia reads: "The CE marking is the manufacturer's declaration that the product meets the requirements of the applicable EC directives." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking With most products the CE sign is just a promise from the manufacturer and/or importer. No certification required for many products. The product may have been tested by a qualified agency. But maybe it was not.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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hxmiesa		#194 Posted : 15 April 2016 11:00:48(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,520 Location: Spain		Originally Posted by: H0 Wikipedia reads: "The CE marking is the manufacturer's declaration that the product meets the requirements of the applicable EC directives." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking With most products the CE sign is just a promise from the manufacturer and/or importer. No certification required for many products. The product may have been tested by a qualified agency. But maybe it was not. Correct. (at least as how I have understood it). Everybody is totally free to put a "CE" mark on his products. (one MUST do it, if one wants the product sold withing the EU), and thereby you accept to follow the rules stated for the CE. But nothing further is required by the producer! -at least not until somebody has an accident using the product, or someobdy goes on to test to see if it really complies with CE regulations. -And then what happens; basically nothing; Smaller chinese producer are not reachable for our agencies/courts. Producer might already have closed and moved on under another name/fiscal reg-number. One of the "best" things about this, are the fake CE marks. Who says that this stylished logo always means "Confomité Europénne". Change the spacing of the graphic slightly, and it now becomes the universal "China Export" mark, -with no hindering restrictions attached! ;-) (but again; many producers doesnt even bother to use the fake mark, they just put on the genuine one, but still with NO reagrd what so ever for what it actually stands for == WORTHLESS!) Just google "fake CE", and go home and check how many of your products are bootlegged... @Leitner; I live and work in Spain, and I assure you that there is NO END to shitty products sold here. Even in the high street. And another thing is the vast quantity of products entering via personal deliveries bought via internet... (Including the obvoius frauds like external discdrives with a 32MKb USB memory inside, or Apple tablets with nothing but a led behind the screen, to illuminate a "low battery" text when turned on... ;-) (not limited to china, and not related to china-produced model trains, I admit it. But indications of moral and ethics there, and lack of control (and will to control) here)
		Best regards Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain") http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
		WWW
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river6109		#195 Posted : 15 April 2016 11:28:19(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,705 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square		Originally Posted by: nitramretep If Marklin is making locomotives in China then there is no difference between Marklin, Brawa and the other manufacturers. I would like to see a "Country of Origin" or "Manufactured in" labels BEFORE I purchase the item. I was under the impression that Marklin was making items in the EU, in fact if I remember correctly there was some fan fair regarding Marklin's new manufacturing plants in the EU. I have no interest in supporting the Chinese economy at the expense of European workers and others. you are a very lucky person, in Australia (and there are rumours the name of Australia will change soon) there isn't much you can't buy which is not made in China. and you are lucky again to be able to buy parts or items which are made in the US, here in Australia "choice" is not a word we use very often and a matter of fact not at all. we had a car manufacturing empire here in Australia dating back to 1940's but this will be all gone soon. if you want to buy cheap and rubbish, we have tons of it and if you want to buy quality you pay through the nose and it has been like this for years. we had these outback holiday deal back in the 80's, tourists flogging to Urulu (former Ayers rock) and staying there for 14 days looking at a rock and spending 99 % of their time drinking, drinking and more drinking and eating, there is nothing else around, except flies John
		https://www.youtube.com/river6109 https://www.youtube.com/6109river 5 years in Destruction mode 50 years in Repairing mode
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Leitner		#196 Posted : 15 April 2016 14:16:23(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 274		Originally Posted by: H0 Originally Posted by: Leitner Well, CE requirements are very strict and should be issued by a chinese agency recognized also in Europe Says who? Wikipedia reads: "The CE marking is the manufacturer's declaration that the product meets the requirements of the applicable EC directives." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking With most products the CE sign is just a promise from the manufacturer and/or importer. No certification required for many products. The product may have been tested by a qualified agency. But maybe it was not. If Wikipedia says that it's wrong, I do this job since long, I know what I'm talking about. And considering we are talking about toys CE is required. Then again, it's up to the custom to verify if the CE is true or not, so complain with them.
		Ep. III (My layout is set in 1962). I collect mainly DSB, DB and SBB but I'm quite... Open minded. I'm quite a big collector of NOHAB lok :)
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nitramretep		#197 Posted : 15 April 2016 14:40:32(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2015(UTC) Posts: 207 Location: lower hudson valley, ny		If Marklin is making products in China then what is the difference between, lets say, Brawa or others? Frankly the Brawa freight cars coming out of China are pretty good looking pieces. As regards to complaining to Marklin I would imagine that is like talking to a wall. Marklin will do what ever is required to stay profitable or at least in the black. I read with amazement the remarks about Australia having to live with nothing other than cheap imports. I don't think we are to far off that situation in the US. I am figting this trend by insisting on made in the US or or the EU but that is a losing battle and before much longer food will be coming from China (God help us!). Marklin and others are following the manufacturing trend of no country of origin listed until you buy the item and get it home. This is somewhat underhanded, especially by Marklin as I have for years praised them for keeping their production in the EU. I don't hate the Chinese but the world economy cannot revolve around one country, unless we expect to be buying our national self defense arms from them too. Time to get off the soap box and take the meds!
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H0		#198 Posted : 15 April 2016 17:43:42(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: Leitner If Wikipedia says that it's wrong, I do this job since long, I know what I'm talking about. And considering we are talking about toys CE is required. "Toys for big boys", marked 15+, are no toys with respect to EU regulations.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Iamnotthecrazyone		#199 Posted : 15 April 2016 19:00:20(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,044		Originally Posted by: Leitner Originally Posted by: H0 Originally Posted by: Leitner Well, CE requirements are very strict and should be issued by a chinese agency recognized also in Europe Says who? Wikipedia reads: "The CE marking is the manufacturer's declaration that the product meets the requirements of the applicable EC directives." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking With most products the CE sign is just a promise from the manufacturer and/or importer. No certification required for many products. The product may have been tested by a qualified agency. But maybe it was not. If Wikipedia says that it's wrong, I do this job since long, I know what I'm talking about. And considering we are talking about toys CE is required. Then again, it's up to the custom to verify if the CE is true or not, so complain with them. Customs has absolutely nothing to do with checking compliance to European norms, no compliance doesn't immediately equal to a product being illegal or not being permitted into a country. It is just the same as the FCC compliance mentioned before, you can have a Marklin loco in the USA but you are not allowed to use it unless you personally obtain the certification.
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Mark_1602		#200 Posted : 16 April 2016 18:06:30(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC) Posts: 704 Location: Luxembourg		Hi all, Here are some really nice Märklin freight cars that are probably made in China. I've seen exotic printing codes such as Hi1CLT before, but only on Märklin products made in China. The printing codes on Märklin boxes made in Europe usually end in ND, ND, or nd nowadays. I bought those cars recently on a daytrip to Germany with my daughter and got them for 39.99 euros each. I had a look at the printing codes on other Märklin boxes in the shop and found out that the new DRG milk cars (48817) are probably Chinese-made as well. Märklin claims that they are new tooling, but who designed them? There's nothing wrong with the two cars on my photos, and I don't mind if Märklin has some feight cars made in China as long as they're issue-free, but the problem is Märklin's lack of sincerity, especially in the last 15 years. Those workers who used to be in charge of quality control in Göppingen were sacked around 2005, and in 2009 more workers were sacked, but Mr Pluta told us that they had reintroduced quality control at the beginning of the insolvency. No matter where the stuff is made, you can't have real quality control without hiring extra workers. The numerous warranty cases that customers have had in recent years prove that. I was willing to give the new owners the benefit of the doubt when they took over, but three years down the road, I still have warranty cases occasionally ... Best regards, Mark
		Best regards, Mark I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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