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Offline pab  
#51 Posted : 01 November 2015 11:02:10(UTC)
pab

Netherlands   
Joined: 03/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,752
I'm very Lucky to have at least 5 shops within 35 km.
The Wapstad in Rijswijk, that's where I buy most of my trains, scenery and other model railroad related materials.
We also have the regular fair in Houten, with a lot of second hand and new items (75 km).

I like to buy my locomotives from a shop, where they can be tested before I buy.

Regular toyshops, when still existing, don't sell trains anymore.
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Offline PhillipL  
#52 Posted : 01 November 2015 13:16:43(UTC)
PhillipL

United States   
Joined: 24/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 123
One concern about the US market that has been brought up by several persons is the use of Walthers as the distributor. I really agree with this. My experience with them on a variety of model train products is that they rarely have items in stock (unless it items from their lines such as "Mainline" or "Proto") and that their prices are always extremely high. If you go to the Walthers website it centers around the lines they own as well and a person really needs to look carefully to notice that they distribute Marklin products.

I think Marklin did at some point during the 1980s or 1990s have their own distribution center but then resorted to using Walthers. There have been several mentions of Piko in this thread. They bypassed Walthers and instead distribute through Piko America. Maybe Marklin should once again try to cut out the middle man and distribute directly to US customers and hobby stores.
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Offline baggio  
#53 Posted : 01 November 2015 15:13:34(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
"There have been several mentions of Piko in this thread. They bypassed Walthers and instead distribute through Piko America."

Piko does next to nothing to be present in the N/A market. I know that Piko America exists (I actively sought them out and did reply to an inquiry I had), but I have never seen any marketing by Piko to reach Canadian consumers.

For that matter neither has Roco. There is a Roco.ca website, but it seems to be sponsored by John's Hobbies, albeit they deny any association with it.

There is no question that Walthers is not normally the place to buy Marklin/Trix items because they are very expensive, unless W has a sale. Their sales are announced on their website and are often bargains. Service is another matter altogether. At least, however, there is a place where US and Can consumers that do not know about Westend Trains in Toronto can go to in order to buy M/T trains.

If it not already well-known, the Credit Valley Railway store in Mississauga offers a great service where one can buy Walthers products and pay just the listed price (with exchange added on, obviously) plus HST. This means that you do NOT have to pay for shipping, duty and potential post office HST FEE to pay the HST Scared ).

Have a good Sunday everyone. In Toronto it's now 9:14 am after the change in time, we are back to Eastern Standard Time.

BigGrin
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Offline petestra  
#54 Posted : 01 November 2015 15:55:32(UTC)
petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
A good, successful marketing strategy is the ultimate answer, I believe. A lot of Americans (most I should say) have never heard of Marklin. I found out

about their products and history when I was a kid in the 60s, mostly by visiting their beautiful show layouts at FAO Schwartz on NYC's 5th ave. I was

sold immediately. Yes, times have changed with what kids are interested in these days but if they are caught by the Marklin bug and their

childrens' products they may stick with it, if they are financially able. After all this is not a cheap hobby. PeterWink
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Offline baggio  
#55 Posted : 01 November 2015 16:36:16(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
The KEY to having kids become interested in the trains is to make trains INTERACTIVE so that the kids do not just watch a train go around.

In this context, Marklin should spruce up their wireless remote control packages because by adding one more remote control, two kids can play, each controlling his train. THAT is cool. BigGrin

Sadly, Marklin is not interested in that angle.

If FCC approval is needed to do it, so be it. Can't be that difficult to get it.

The wired remote they have is cheap and not at all appealing (I have one ThumbDown )
-- I am not even sure it takes two remotes, I doubt it - I can't find the power piece (I never use it) if and when I do I will advise on whether two remotes can be added.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#56 Posted : 01 November 2015 17:02:46(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
The KEY to having kids become interested in the trains is to make trains INTERACTIVE so that the kids do not just watch a train go around.

In this context, Marklin should spruce up their wireless remote control packages because by adding one more remote control, two kids can play, each controlling his train. THAT is cool. BigGrin

Sadly, Marklin is not interested in that angle.

If FCC approval is needed to do it, so be it. Can't be that difficult to get it.

The wired remote they have is cheap and not at all appealing (I have one ThumbDown )
-- I am not even sure it takes two remotes, I doubt it - I can't find the power piece (I never use it) if and when I do I will advise on whether two remotes can be added.


What wired remote? To me an ms2 is THE wired remote they currently produce.

And I would have thought that the iThingy/Android apps are the wireless remotes. This is why in Goofys "cs3 coming soon" thread I advocated that a cs3 should be a single control unit with built in wifi like the Roco Z21. pretty well every home will now have a smart phone and/or tablet device to use as a wireless remote.

Offline baggio  
#57 Posted : 01 November 2015 17:06:51(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
The cheap wired remote that comes with starter sets in place of the well-made wireless remote.

The other stuff is too expensive for a lot of people.

Model trains cannot and should never become a rich boy's toy.
Offline Thewolf  
#58 Posted : 01 November 2015 18:43:42(UTC)
Thewolf

Canada   
Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 2,035
Location: Saint Mathias dur Richelieu-Canada
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
The cheap wired remote that comes with starter sets in place of the well-made wireless remote.

The other stuff is too expensive for a lot of people.

Model trains cannot and should never become a rich boy's toy.



Everybody knows that if we want buy Marklin, we must pay the price. If I think that Marklin is too expensive, I don't buy Marklin. That's it , that's all. When I was a child and in my native country, some others brands were on the market (Lima, Jouef, ...and others) . Today Marklin is always there, Lima ...where is it ? I don't know, Jouef has difficulty to survive I believe.

Many people say that the ''little'' train became a very expensive hobby and in a layout there are not only the train Blushing Bored Blink

Thewolf



Project The Richelieu Valley Railway-CS2-Track C- Itrain-Digital
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Offline Armando  
#59 Posted : 01 November 2015 18:43:51(UTC)
Armando

United States   
Joined: 21/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 1,350
Location: Houston, Texas
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!

I know why they lost the lion's share of my MRR budget and I can say what they could do to win my budget back.


1. Better quality: good motors, good decoders, good sound projects, good printing and painting, good assembly, better training for the people on the assembly lines, better checks after assembly. Why do all steamers (small and big) share the same sound of shovelling coal? Why do all locos share the same file with shunting announcements ("OK, go ahead")?
Prototypical pantographs have the same price as incorrect pantographs (why make a DB 189 with livery for the Netherlands and ship it with pantographs for Switzerland (incorrect) instead of DC pantographs for the Netherlands?).

6. Get it right the first time: "Märklinisms" damage the reputation of a mould. They messed up the wind shield wipers of the DB 189, the running axle of the E 17, the steering of the DB 23, the tractive effort of the DB 50.40 - and corrected it with later variations. Would have been cheaper to get it right the first time.


Tom,
As usual, you are right on the dollar with your comments!
Best regards,
Armando García

Offline Goofy  
#60 Posted : 01 November 2015 18:57:29(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
In fact should the store offer to the customer with the installments,just because the trains like Märklin are expensive.
This way is an good business for both customer and the seller.
If Märklin wants to survival in better way,i suggest better cooperation between the customer and the seller.
In this way Märklin sell more,since there is better choice.
Rich people who has more money don´t need to installments with theirs payment of the train models.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline mbarreto  
#61 Posted : 01 November 2015 19:19:20(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257
I agree with Tom although my budget still goes to M*. I add to the comments that the made in China doesn't help.
My Nohab had problems in the screwing. M* replaced it or at least the shell was replaced. Unfortunately today it had an accident (in the last 5 years I had not one like this) and it fall in a carpet from the top of a table (75 cm ?) and it was more damaged than i was expecting... one bumper is completely damaged (torsion and plate broken). The other things are more acceptable but let me tell you to disassemble it is not that easy...

It is not all bad and there are significant improvements, for example in detail and weathering (just last models).

Miguel
Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline kiwiAlan  
#62 Posted : 01 November 2015 22:13:48(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
In fact should the store offer to the customer with the installments.


Isn't that process known as a credit card ??? Laugh
Offline kiwiAlan  
#63 Posted : 01 November 2015 22:17:07(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
The cheap wired remote that comes with starter sets in place of the well-made wireless remote.

The other stuff is too expensive for a lot of people.

Model trains cannot and should never become a rich boy's toy.


The only sets I am aware of that come with a 'wired remote' is the sets that were available through Aldi. I thought all the other ones came with either the IR remote or an ms2. I am certainly not aware of any other sets that have the 'wired remote'.

Offline baggio  
#64 Posted : 02 November 2015 00:25:04(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
No, kiwiAlan, in Canada there is a starter set 29322 that I bought last year at Christmas from the local Marklin dealer. It came with a wired remote because apparently the wireless remote did not meet FCC specifications regarding interference (and in Canada we normally follow what the USA do...)

My Christmas starter set with wired remote - 29322.jpg

The picture shows a wireless remote, but as I was advised ahead of time, it is a wired remote.

I have now found the wired remote. It is a cheap hook up to a track (I would have done a better job...) and not a nice hook up unit as with the MS1. It does NOT allow for two remotes.

Stiill, since I have two other wireless remote sets (including two feeder tracks), I did not need it. The Christmas set came with a power pack which I was glad to get so that I now have two complete wireless remote sets plus the MS1. I use one of the power packs for the MS1. It's a nice starter set overall and I am still glad I got it.

(If you are interested in these wireless remote sets, however, send me a private message because there are some issues with it that need to be addressed. Once you do, you will be fine.)

Offline Goofy  
#65 Posted : 02 November 2015 05:34:33(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
In fact should the store offer to the customer with the installments.


Isn't that process known as a credit card ??? Laugh


Yes very good Alan!
In Sweden we also do have interest-free payments,depends how many months you did decides to pay every month.
Between 3-6 months we train customer do have this payment in one hobby store.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline RayF  
#66 Posted : 02 November 2015 09:51:59(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
As I see it the IR wireless remotes, whether modified to be "wired" or not, are the equivalent of the old Delta controllers. You can control up to 4 locos independantly if they are set to the four "delta" addresses, but you can only use one controller at a time.

If you want the facility to have more than one throttle you need to go up to the next level which is currently the MS2. Yes, it's a bit more expensive, but I don't see how it could be otherwise, unless they produce a stripped down MS2 purely for young kids.

Edit:

PS Before someone points it out, I am aware that you could connect an extra throttle to the old Delta controller, but this was expensive and could only control a fifth, additional address. The usual four addresses could still only be controlled by the main controller.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline H0  
#67 Posted : 02 November 2015 10:08:50(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
As I see it the IR wireless remotes, whether modified to be "wired" or not, are the equivalent of the old Delta controllers. You can control up to 4 locos independantly if they are set to the four "delta" addresses, but you can only use one controller at a time.
You can use 4 IR senders (only one at any time) to control four trains independently.
Track power is limited, but two trains and two IR controllers make a nice setup for two children.

You can control F0 through F4 with the IR controller and you can change the addresses of locos - these two aspects make it superior to the Delta controller.


Number one son controls F0 through F14 on his sound loco with the IR controller. Probably a firmware bug that F15 does not work. This requires setting up four Delta addresses in the loco using a more capable controller.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#68 Posted : 02 November 2015 19:10:10(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
No, kiwiAlan, in Canada there is a starter set 29322 that I bought last year at Christmas from the local Marklin dealer. It came with a wired remote because apparently the wireless remote did not meet FCC specifications regarding interference (and in Canada we normally follow what the USA do...)

My Christmas starter set with wired remote - 29322.jpg

The picture shows a wireless remote, but as I was advised ahead of time, it is a wired remote.

I have now found the wired remote. It is a cheap hook up to a track (I would have done a better job...) and not a nice hook up unit as with the MS1. It does NOT allow for two remotes.

Stiill, since I have two other wireless remote sets (including two feeder tracks), I did not need it. The Christmas set came with a power pack which I was glad to get so that I now have two complete wireless remote sets plus the MS1. I use one of the power packs for the MS1. It's a nice starter set overall and I am still glad I got it.

(If you are interested in these wireless remote sets, however, send me a private message because there are some issues with it that need to be addressed. Once you do, you will be fine.)



OK< so it ended up with one as pictured in this thread from this time last year. However as Tom (HO) points out, it can control only the light function, where the IR controller can control 4 functions.

Tom, your son must be proud of being able to control all those functions from his little remote.

Alan
Offline baggio  
#69 Posted : 02 November 2015 19:53:58(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
You are welcome, kiwiAlan.
Offline RayF  
#70 Posted : 02 November 2015 20:12:33(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
So the wireless IR remote and the wired version are actually two different controllers. The wired version seems to be nothing more than a Delta controller, repackaged in the form of the IR control, whereas the true IR wireless controller is much more sophisticated and includes the ability to change addresses and control more than one function.

OK, now I understand!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline baggio  
#71 Posted : 02 November 2015 20:43:14(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
I think you may still change address with the wired remote since you do not use a function button to do this on the wirless remote. I never tried it.

The wired remote does have a light button to turn the lights on.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#72 Posted : 03 November 2015 00:14:49(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
I think you may still change address with the wired remote since you do not use a function button to do this on the wirless remote. I never tried it.

The wired remote does have a light button to turn the lights on.


Yes you can, see the instructions further down the thread I linked to.

Offline H0  
#73 Posted : 03 November 2015 08:14:22(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I believe the US has only ever been a minority market for Marklin, in terms of US models.


Twenty years ago I was told that Marklins market was split as follows: [...]

I don't see anything that would cause me to think the numbers are much different today.
I played with the figures published by Herr Pluta in 2009 about the year 2008.

According to those figures, Märklin/Trix/LGB sold to those countries:
Germany: 77%
Netherlands: 8%
Switzerland: 4%
Belgium/Luxembourg: 2.6%
France: 2%
Austria: 2%
USA: 2%
Japan, UK: about 0.5% each
China: about 0.02%

With a market share of about 1%, there is much room to grow in the USA. Or not much to lose.

Most likely these figures indicate where the dealers are, not where the customers are. Canada is not on the list.
The figures are for Märklin, Trix, and LGB together. It seems this forum usually takes Märklin as a synonym for three-rail H0, but there also is Z gauge and G gauge. And I think both have a significant fan base in the US.

In August we heard that Walthers is no longer Märklin's US distributor.
https://www.marklin-user...main-key-Marklin-Partner
I don't remember hearing about any improvements since then.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline mbarreto  
#74 Posted : 03 November 2015 10:13:48(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257

When I think about M* quality, since Sunday I can't stop thinking abou tmy 39670 NOHAB or (ex-NOHAB ??) that fall in the carpet from top of a table.
I managed to assemble the parts and the boggies are now in place and the chassis/electronics/electrics/motor are now ok. Shell, front/rear plastics and 1 coupler pocket damaged. My disappointment goes to the distortion of the shell body in one of the extremities and also to the black paint in the chassis. Seems the black paint is extremely thin and very sensible. As it was made in China I tend to complain abut that, but if M* allows that kind of quality to be made there, why don't they allow it to be made elsewhere? (unless M* is being fooled, something I have strong doubts).

The painting remembers me the painting of some Br* models that were not dried enough and also, for example, the letter "Y" of "K.Bay." with missing bottom. They also are claimed to be made in China...

I wanted other new NOHAB but now it is probably better wait for reports of something better. I also don't know what to do with mine: will check the price of the damaged parts but I think it will be high enough for go to it. A possibility is do some realignment of the shell and weather it. Other possibility is use the decoder and sell the parts...



Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline PJMärklin  
#75 Posted : 03 November 2015 10:36:03(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I believe the US has only ever been a minority market for Marklin, in terms of US models.


Twenty years ago I was told that Marklins market was split as follows: [...]

I don't see anything that would cause me to think the numbers are much different today.
I played with the figures published by Herr Pluta in 2009 about the year 2008.

According to those figures, Märklin/Trix/LGB sold to those countries:
Germany: 77%
Netherlands: 8%
Switzerland: 4%
Belgium/Luxembourg: 2.6%
France: 2%
Austria: 2%
USA: 2%
Japan, UK: about 0.5% each
China: about 0.02%

With a market share of about 1%, there is much room to grow in the USA. Or not much to lose.

Most likely these figures indicate where the dealers are, not where the customers are. Canada is not on the list.
The figures are for Märklin, Trix, and LGB together. It seems this forum usually takes Märklin as a synonym for three-rail H0, but there also is Z gauge and G gauge. And I think both have a significant fan base in the US.

In August we heard that Walthers is no longer Märklin's US distributor.
https://www.marklin-user...main-key-Marklin-Partner
I don't remember hearing about any improvements since then.


Hello Tom,

Thank you for the interesting statistics.

As some English say : "Statistics are like a drunk leaning against the lamppost - he is looking for support, not illumination"
Whilst North Americans note : " there are white lies, bald lies, and then... statistics "

I believe it is more to the point as you have said : that these statistics reflect where the dealers are, not the customers.
Thus the missing statistics for Australia and New Zealand, in addition to the tiny revealed North American market are actually disguised within the German portion because that is where the online dealers are from whom these customers buy.

Regards,

PJ
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Offline H0  
#76 Posted : 03 November 2015 11:09:51(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
Thus the missing statistics for Australia and New Zealand, in addition to the tiny revealed North American market are actually disguised within the German portion because that is where the online dealers are from whom these customers buy.
Those figures illustrate the importance of the US distributor for Märklin's sales in 2008.
I don't know the turnover of Walthers in 2008, but the figures could also illustrate the importance of Märklin for Walthers - or the lack thereof.

A good, active US distributor with excellent service could "steal" some sales from European Märklin dealers but also from other brands.

A company like Walthers will boost the most profitable brand.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#77 Posted : 03 November 2015 17:37:36(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post

The painting remembers me the painting of some Br* models that were not dried enough


Paint not dry enough is not a recent phenomenon, I recall watching one of our forum members find an early 1950s loc at a swap meet in germany, and the brown tissue paper was ever so slightly stuck to the paint when he unwrapped it to take a look. Apparently it was typical of the models produced at that time, and this one was absolutely mint.

Offline RayF  
#78 Posted : 03 November 2015 18:36:19(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Forgive me if this is slightly off-topic, but it is prompted by Miguel's post above. I don't wish to contradict Miguel too much, but based on his experience with his NOHAB I had a good look at my 39672 today. I checked it over externally and also opened it up and had a look inside.

I'm pleased to say I could find nothing wrong with it. The paintwork is impeccable, at least to my eyes, and the screws came off easily and went back on without any problem. I have to admit I was careful not to over-tighten the screws, but I do this with all my locos anyway. It's too easy to damage the thread on these fairly soft metals.

Maybe I'm lucky, but I'm quite happy with my NOHAB!

Edited by user 03 November 2015 23:10:38(UTC)  | Reason: typo

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline steventrain  
#79 Posted : 03 November 2015 22:57:03(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,601
Location: United Kingdom
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post


According to those figures, Märklin/Trix/LGB sold to those countries:
Germany: 77%
Netherlands: 8%
Switzerland: 4%
Belgium/Luxembourg: 2.6%
France: 2%
Austria: 2%
USA: 2%
Japan, UK: about 0.5% each
China: about 0.02%



I always buy new marklin items from German dealers with online at low price, I stop buying anymore Marklin from UK dealers because about 30% high.

But I buy with Ebay UK at bargain such as 37450 went for £103, 37964 went for £146.

Forget new loco cost over 400 EUR.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline baggio  
#80 Posted : 04 November 2015 00:06:58(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
But by so doing you kill any chance for getting any service from a store. Is that wise?
Offline RayF  
#81 Posted : 04 November 2015 00:33:15(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
But by so doing you kill any chance for getting any service from a store. Is that wise?


You have to realise that there are very few Marklin dealers in UK. If the nearest dealer is a couple of hundred miles away you are still going to have to deal by mail, so you might as well buy cheaper from Germany!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Thewolf  
#82 Posted : 04 November 2015 01:11:50(UTC)
Thewolf

Canada   
Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 2,035
Location: Saint Mathias dur Richelieu-Canada
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
But by so doing you kill any chance for getting any service from a store. Is that wise?


Hi Cool

Many of marklinistes know how to make their repairs themselves

They are not one-armed persons.

Lucky people Cool

Thewolf
Project The Richelieu Valley Railway-CS2-Track C- Itrain-Digital
Offline baggio  
#83 Posted : 04 November 2015 01:15:40(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
I see what you mean, Ray, but still, by so doing we will ALL end up buying via E-bay. Scared

At that point,if we get into problems with the purchases, will the vendors do anything about it?

Also, any service, back to Marklin, not a miracle of speed.

It may be that I am fighting a losing battle, but I still want to do what I can to keep my local Marklin store alive and well.

(Also, frankly, by Can standards, 200 miles is not that far. One could even treat it as a vacation day. Wink )
Offline baggio  
#84 Posted : 04 November 2015 01:19:23(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
And many marklinists kid themselves that they can fix locos the way professionals do....
Offline Thewolf  
#85 Posted : 04 November 2015 01:44:23(UTC)
Thewolf

Canada   
Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 2,035
Location: Saint Mathias dur Richelieu-Canada
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post


It may be that I am fighting a losing battle, but I still want to do what I can to keep my local Marklin store alive and well.


No problems for and with Mike

Thewolf



Project The Richelieu Valley Railway-CS2-Track C- Itrain-Digital
Offline PJMärklin  
#86 Posted : 04 November 2015 06:43:17(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
And many marklinists kid themselves that they can fix locos the way professionals do....



Hello Baggio,


I do not kid myself I am a "professional" (märklin service person) but in 30 years I have not had a problem I could not fix myself (albeit at times with advice from folk on this marvelous forum). Maybe I have just been lucky but I have done a lot of repairs, maintainence, digital conversions and upgrades in this time. There is a lot of information out there in the ethers to help with this.

Regards,

PJ
Offline Olav  
#87 Posted : 04 November 2015 07:55:59(UTC)
Olav


Joined: 20/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 111
Location: ,
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
But by so doing you kill any chance for getting any service from a store. Is that wise?


I don't agree on that statement. I'm buying practically everything from a German store. I'm very pleased with their service which is in fact outstanding. Next they have very compatitive prices.
Offline RayF  
#88 Posted : 04 November 2015 08:34:39(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Online dealers very often have a physical shop as well. I buy from Lokshop which I believe is one of these. In the UK I also sometimes buy from Gaugemaster even though their prices are 30% higher.

It's a bit painful to be criticised for buying online when there is no shop in your country. When I travel I usually look up beforehand any model shops at my destination and very often spend hundreds of Euros/dollars/pounds at that shop. However it would be impossible for me to take them a faulty loco for repair and then collect it when it's ready.

I have been a lifelong supporter of model shops, and have been disappointed to see them closing one by one whether I support them or not.

Let's get real. For the majority of model rail enthusiasts today buying at a distance is the only option.

Maintenance and repair? I learned long ago that the only way is to do it myself! I screwed up a few locos before I got the hang of it, but now I would only consider sending for a repair a loco which is faulty straight out of the box, and even then I would have a quick look at it first to see if it's something I could do myself.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Olav  
#89 Posted : 04 November 2015 09:18:33(UTC)
Olav


Joined: 20/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 111
Location: ,
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
.......

It's a bit painful to be criticised for buying online when there is no shop in your country. When I travel I usually look up beforehand any model shops at my destination and very often spend hundreds of Euros/dollars/pounds at that shop. However it would be impossible for me to take them a faulty loco for repair and then collect it when it's ready.

..........




Depends. My dealer in Germany has a free return via DHL if anything is a warrenty issue. Since I'm often there (picking up new material), repair is made very easy in these cases. I can pick up the repaired loco when it's ready together with the rest. Normally I'm there twice a year.
Offline RayF  
#90 Posted : 04 November 2015 09:36:45(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Olav Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
.......

It's a bit painful to be criticised for buying online when there is no shop in your country. When I travel I usually look up beforehand any model shops at my destination and very often spend hundreds of Euros/dollars/pounds at that shop. However it would be impossible for me to take them a faulty loco for repair and then collect it when it's ready.

..........




Depends. My dealer in Germany has a free return via DHL if anything is a warrenty issue. Since I'm often there (picking up new material), repair is made very easy in these cases. I can pick up the repaired loco when it's ready together with the rest. Normally I'm there twice a year.


If that works for you then that's great!

I would be a bit miffed to have to wait six months for my repaired loco.

Everyone is entitled to have different expectations from their hobby.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline petestra  
#91 Posted : 04 November 2015 12:43:22(UTC)
petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Olav Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
.......

It's a bit painful to be criticised for buying online when there is no shop in your country. When I travel I usually look up beforehand any model shops at my destination and very often spend hundreds of Euros/dollars/pounds at that shop. However it would be impossible for me to take them a faulty loco for repair and then collect it when it's ready.

..........




Depends. My dealer in Germany has a free return via DHL if anything is a warrenty issue. Since I'm often there (picking up new material), repair is made very easy in these cases. I can pick up the repaired loco when it's ready together with the rest. Normally I'm there twice a year.


If that works for you then that's great!

I would be a bit miffed to have to wait six months for my repaired loco.

Everyone is entitled to have different expectations from their hobby.



Exactly Ray! This is why I stopped using U.S. Dealers. Waiting over a year sometimes for items via Walthers. Ridiculous!

Except for the repair services from Scott at Helmuts Hobbies I find the service lacking here in the USA. I'd rather pay more for shipping and still save money on my orders.Peter.
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Offline Olav  
#92 Posted : 04 November 2015 17:11:31(UTC)
Olav


Joined: 20/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 111
Location: ,
Ray,

The sixth months is relative. Normally, is my sad experience, the defect loco runs for around three months OK. When sent away, it's just in time sent back to my dealer (Normally).

BTW, the last years I have been there more because of several reasons not related to trains. ;)

BR

Olav
Offline baggio  
#93 Posted : 05 November 2015 01:46:27(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
I really was not trying to make anyone feel guilty about buying on E-bay. I am truly sorry if I gave that impression. Blushing

However, it is a fact that the more we buy online, the fewer real stores there will be to deal with.

Perhaps this is the way of the future: buy cheap, no personal contact and if you have a problem with your loco, leave it as it is or throw it away and buy another one. Scared

As far as I I know in the whole of Italy there is only one Marklin store and none in Rome. I am not even sure that there is any store you can buy Marklin now. If there is, certainly not staffed by knowledgeable vendors.

There was for decades a hobby shop in Rome, "Giorni Modellismo"", that too went about a year ago.

Online, we had Horizon, for North American trains, a really nice online shop, gone too. Athearn took it over.

As a result, whenever I buy a loco, if Mike sells it, I buy it there. His prices are competitive and that is good enough for me. I know I can go back for service, even if I have to pay a small fee.

Bottom line: we are into a dying hobby. The real question is: who will die first, us or the hobby? LOL
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Offline H0  
#94 Posted : 05 November 2015 08:36:47(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
The topic of this thread is: what would we do if we were CEOs at Märklin.

Let's face it: a budget of €1000 can be spend on four locos at €250 RRP each from brick'n'mortar stores. Or on five locos at €250 RRP each (sold for €200) from cheap Internet shops.
Märklin will make more profit from five locos than from four locos.

It seems that Märklin are trying to keep brick'n'mortar dealers alive. I think many collectors will lose interest if they do not have a shop in reach. OTOH they dump dealers that do not have enough sales.

Märklin are trying to get back into toy shops. Not bad IMHO, but they sell MyWorld starter sets only, but cannot replace light bulbs or traction tyres.

MRR is a shrinking market and Märklin's sales are also shrinking.

Piko's sales are not shrinking. But Piko is a small company - Piko's sales are what Märklin's profit was a few years ago.

Piko's Hobby line started very low, but improved year after year. Piko Expert started at a better level and improved year after year.
Very few quality problems, very few disappointments, delivery normally on time.
That worked for me.

Märklin lost much of my budget by disappointments, downgraded quality at high prices, items not as advertised, delivery delayed by a year or more, repair times of more than 11 months.
Märklin lost my trust.
On one hand we have the perpetual China bashing from Herr Sieber, OTOH production in China continues.
They make freight cars where the wheels do not roll freely and tell us their locomotives are strong enough.
They tell us five-pole motors do not feed into the boilers of steam locomotives.
They always talk about high quality, but too often I get low quality. IMHO they should promise less, but should start to keep their promises. Build up some credibility. Regain some trust.

I think that would be my strategy: do not make promises that you can't keep (with respect to product capabilities and delivery dates), admit mistakes (do not make excuses that make you look like a fool), stop damaging the reputation of the brand by assuring quality at all stages.

I don't know what my strategy would be with respect to brick'n'mortar shops or US distributor or UK distributor.
I think you cannot stop Internet shops, but it's worth to support brick'n'mortar shops.


In this thread people mentioned shops and swap meets with a good selection of second-hand stuff. Märklin have to compete with that second-hand stuff.
I think that some people judge Märklin quality only by their own experience with analogue items from the "Made in Western Germany" era. Yep, that was good quality with few quality issues.
With "Made in Germany" the quality was already lower - to increase profits, many experiences workers in the West were fired and new workers were hired in Eastern Germany. Who were sacked again when production shifted massively to Far East.
Now production is partially shifted to Hungary where they hire new workers once again.

Märklin do not make any profit when people buy second-hand Märklin locos. That's why they have to make so many new items every year - doors with LCDs, tenders where the coal moves up and down, trains with working wind-shield wipers, trains with working pantographs, with better detailing, more light functions, better sound functions.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Mark_1602  
#95 Posted : 06 November 2015 07:31:38(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi everyone,

Let's be honest. If one of us were CEO of Märklin, it wouldn't be a profitable company anymore, would it? Of course we'd like to have better motors, sound decoders, better quality control, etc, but the high profit margins of around 10 per cent that Märklin has enjoyed since 2009 have only been achieved by cutting (too many) corners. We all know what this has resulted in: inconsistent quality, with an unusually high number of warranty cases. Some customers were lucky and didn't really have any warranty cases, whereas others had a few or even plenty. Buying a Märklin product has become a lottery.

Whether we like it or not, the high profit margins are simply needed to pay off the bank loans and to finance new investments, without which there wouldn't be any future for Märklin. So the cheap DC motors that are currently used are here to stay, even if this means that some good customers will never buy any Märklin locomotives again. The current owners are professional businessmen who know how to keep companies profitable.

What we can reasonably expect from them is that there will be improved or more reliable decoders, though not the best on the market. The new generation of decoders might be slightly better, but it's too early to tell. The new owners know that poor decoders mean a higher number of warranty cases, which costs money and leads to customer dissatisfaction. The second improvement that they'll have to achieve is better quality control. Scratches or missing parts on brand new models can even make real Märklin fans lose trust, especially if that happens repeatedly. It's a shrinking market anyway, but sales will fall faster if the number of warranty cases remains as high as it has been in the last few years.

I agree with Tom that Märklin's legendary reputation as a quality brand is largely based on the past, when (nearly) every Märklin product was really made by comparatively well-paid and highly-skilled West German workers at the company's own factories in Göppingen and Schwäbisch Gmünd (before the 1990s). Even that glorious past is often idealised: cutting corners actually started around 1970, when some Märklin models were simplified to lower prices and increase sales. Nevertheless, Märklin still had an effective quality control department until about 2005, when those workers were sacked along with many others. I once talked to a woman who had worked in quality control at Göppingen until the year 2005, and she told me that the quality control team had really checked every locomotive back then; in addition to that, one locomotive out of ten was (partially?) disassembled and given a very thorough check. According to Mr Pluta, quality control was reintroduced in 2009, but we all know it's not always effective, especially at the factory in Hungary. In addition to that, products made in China are not checked by Märklin nowadays, as the inconsistent quality of the new Nohab/AFB diesel has revealed.

Several of the warranty cases I've had in recent years were probably due to careless packing at the factory in Györ. I assume that products are put into boxes after quality control, and the workers who do that are probably not the best-paid or the most motivated. I have read somewhere that in many East European factories, workers' wages are based on the number of products they finish every day, but I don't know if that's the case at Györ. So if I were CEO, I would introduce tiny quality control stickers like the ones on underwear or clothes. Both the person who checks the item after assembly and the one who packs it would have to put a little sticker into the box, so warranty cases could be traced back to them. Efficient workers would thus get bonuses, and bad ones could be sacked based on undeniable evidence. That measure would make a real difference, but wouldn't cost too much, I guess. Every time I buy underwear, I remove those little white stickers and wonder why MRR manufacturers can't do that.

Best regards,

Mark

Edited by user 06 November 2015 14:38:40(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline H0  
#96 Posted : 06 November 2015 09:45:34(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post
The current owners are professional businessmen who know how to keep companies profitable.
This year I didn't read anything about last year's profit, neither did I read anything about the trade fair pre-orders.
Did I miss something? Is it a new company style to remain silent? Do they remain silent because there are no good news?

I am not sure their modus operandi is good for a sustained development. I am not even sure sustained development is their primary goal.


Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post
Let's be honest. If one of us were CEO of Märklin, it wouldn't be a profitable company anymore, would it?
The real CEOs have lots of sales and research figures as a basis to make decisions.
We comment as outsiders.
With inside information we might come to different decisions.
Some of us want the C Sine back, some of us don't. We do not speak with one voice.

It seems they switched to better motors after making many customers unhappy. They burn money by making it wrong the first time, so they have to make it twice. They would save money and prevent damage of their reputation by making it right the first time.


Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post
Every time I buy underwear, I remove those little white stickers and wonder why MRR manufacturers can't do that.
Roco have them for many years now. No stickers, just small pieces of paper with a number they put into the boxes.
Theoretically the serial number would allow Märklin to trace when the loco was packed and who was working that day.


It is normal that wages depend on some metrics. And it's better (from a customer's point of view) to reward quality, not quantity.
I remember a story about a hotline call-centre where workers got a bonus if they handled many calls in short time. A winning strategy was saying "please call again later when our expert is in again". Such an incentive does not lead to better quality.
It's difficult to find metrics that award the behaviour that leads to good quality.

If workers who remove grates from parts before assembly earn less money than those who ignore the grates, then we get what we get: locos that look better when we disassemble them partially, remove the grates, and assemble them again.
So find metrics for bonuses and maluses that will give the workers with good quality and good productivity the highest wages.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Mark_1602  
#97 Posted : 06 November 2015 10:30:46(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi Tom,

Since the sale of the Märklin company in 2013, it has been part of a family business, so profit figures are no longer published. The Siebers claim every year that profits have remained stable, and they probably are because Märklin has cut so many corners and hasn't changed course recently. Without aggressive cost-cutting, those profits wouldn't be there.

I think that the new five-pole motors are not better than the three-pole ones; they only perform well if you're lucky to get a good copy of the motor, so it's a lottery once again. Out of three new Nohabs I bought, only one (the NSB version/39671) had a really good and silent five-pole motor. The few locomotives with three-pole motors I own work fine.

I can tell you why they often get things wrong the first time, especially with new models. Up to the year 2000, the development of a new tooling locomotive took almost two years, but later that time was cut to about a year or a little more to save money and earn revenue faster. Obviously, first versions can't be perfect because they were designed in a hurry. I don't buy them anymore.

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
Offline H0  
#98 Posted : 06 November 2015 16:06:40(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post
Since the sale of the Märklin company in 2013, it has been part of a family business, so profit figures are no longer published.
Detailed figures have been published covering April 2014 and earlier. And I think next year they will publish figures covering the period until April 2015. OK, time will tell.

But usually they also give us some figures (turnover, profit, workforce) long before the detailed information.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Mark_1602  
#99 Posted : 06 November 2015 19:27:07(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post
Since the sale of the Märklin company in 2013, it has been part of a family business, so profit figures are no longer published.
Detailed figures have been published covering April 2014 and earlier. And I think next year they will publish figures covering the period until April 2015. OK, time will tell.

But usually they also give us some figures (turnover, profit, workforce) long before the detailed information.


Hi,

I knew I'd read that in an interview with Florian Sieber in the German MRR magazine 'Modellbahn Illustrierte'. Here's a quote from the September/October 2014 issue (pp. 56-57):

Interviewer: "Kommen wir auf das Geschäftsjahr 2013 zurück. Unter Michael Pluta hat Märklin 2012 ein EBIT von rund 10 Millionen Euro erwirtschaftet. Konnten Sie daran im vergangenen Jahr anknüpfen?"

Florian Sieber: "Märklin hat auch 2013 ein stabiles Ergebnis erwirtschaftet. Wir sind zufrieden mit den Zahlen. Traditionell mach die Simba Dickie Group jedoch zu den erwirtschafteten EBITs keine Angaben."

My translation for our forum members:

Interviewer: "Let's get back to the business year 2013. Under [the leadership of] Michael Pluta, Märklin's Earnings Before Interest and Tax amounted to about 10 million euros. Could you achieve that once again last year?"

Florian Sieber: "In 2013, Märklin's earnings were also stable. We're happy with the figures. However, the Simba Dickie Group traditionally refrains from publishing EBITs."

Every year, the new Märklin owners repeat their claim that earnings are stable, and that's all they will tell us. Statistics about turnover and the workforce are still published, of course.

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline H0  
#100 Posted : 07 November 2015 08:58:17(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: M-Classics Go to Quoted Post
Florian Sieber: "[...] However, the Simba Dickie Group traditionally refrains from publishing EBITs."
Nice. But traditionally Märklin do publish EBITs.
Here's the published EBIT for 2013:
"Insgesamt wurde im Geschäftsjahr 2013 ein positives EBIT von 7,1 Mio. EUR erzielt (Kalenderjahr 2012 8,3 Mio. EUR)."
=> EBIT 2013 7.1 Mio. EUR, EBIT 2012 8.3 Mio. EUR.

The expenses for material were 68.5 Mio. EUR in 2012, but went down to 64.8 Mio. EUR in 2013. Buy cheaper, still sell at high prices.

"Stable result" sure sounds better than "down to 7.1 from 8.3 Mio. EUR".
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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