Personally i think that a group letter is the best way, but it seems that it is very complicated to take all the people's opinion together to make one letter that makes everybody happy.
For the record, i am one of the people wich is very, and i mean very, happy with my trains....but i think one can always be happier!!!!!! Nobody is perfect and Marklin is certainly not the exception but the way to get the brand to improve everyday is to give users feedback directly to them and not only trough dealers, IMHO

I work in a region of the world where you are not allowed openly to criticise the state in a public domain.

I enjoy this forum because we have a varied discussion with people from all over the world.

For outsiders reading this post it now looks like Marklin is superior power and you are not allow to criticise them…

I hope this forum will not turn into an advertisement for Marklin…

Anyhow this post has had lots of interesting reading and opinions and I learned a lot about motors and decoders I was unaware off.

I thank the respective users for participating.

As a final note I would also like to participate in an group letter and can be contacted via PM.

Brgds - Lasse

May I suggest that those who feel strongly about this issue should send individual letters, or get together and send a group letter signed by those individuals, but not as representatives of this forum.

It is pretty apparent to me that the majority of members of this forum are not in favour of putting their name on a list of complaints they do not share. This is not a question of not being allowed to criticise, but rather one of not being bullied into putting your name to something you have no wish to be involved in.

http://freepdfhosting.com/600857c96c.pdf

Version 1 - only concerns motor/decoder issues.

PM or email: danlake@xtra.co.nz

Suggest user in Germany to be contact person and sending the letter off.

Brgds - Lasse

OK by me.

I just don't like the idea that a letter be sent representing the views of members of this forum, when I don't share those views. This is why I advocate sending letters by individuals or groups who feel they have a grievance, as long as that group does not include me.

If I am wrong and there is a majority of contributing members who genuinely have a grievance with Marklin then I will have to remain in the minority or leave the forum.

I'd rather not leave.

Lasse, I suggest

1) That you replace m-users.net with marklin-users.net, which is the official url of the forum. (However, see my comments later in this post)

2) You have a mix of Marklin and Märklin in the letter, you should standardise with Märklin.



For this reason, I think it might be best to not have the name of this forum involved on the letter - and I think this is what Juhan would prefer. By all means use the forum and this thread to discuss the contents of the letter, but the final letter should be signed by those who wish to as individual people rather than forum members.

Tom,

I have the greatest respect for your knowledge and wisdom of all things Marklin and railways in general.

I read with interest your tests on the slow running characteristics of the new locos and verified it myself with my own experiments. The only disagreement I have is with the response to those tests. I could not care less whether my loco's slowest speed is 2kph or 4kph. For me both are slow enough. Therefore I have no problem with my loco and am quite happy to accept the decoder and motor as being adequate, even though I can see that the performence is not quite as good as the previous model. I accept that Marklin must have good reasons for having to use this motor and decoder combination.

While this is my opinion, I have no problem with others being unhappy about this, and even support the idea that those who don't like it should complain. There are those who never complain, those who always complain, and those who only complain when severely provoked. I leave it up to each person to decide which bracket best describes them. I know I personally only complain when severely provoked.

My only gripe with this thread has been the idea that a letter be sent claiming to represent the members of this forum, when it does not represent mine. Nevertheless I have stayed clear of posting in it until I saw that others were of the same opinion as me.

The only bullying I have noted was not in this thread, but in Bertil's "Happy with Marklin" thread, where some tried to chime in with negative comments that were not in the spirit of the thread. I felt that was a form of bullying.

Version 2 uploaded:

http://freepdfhosting.com/6b0bf8a84b.pdf

Now reads: This letter was compiled by some members in the online community and contains wishes and suggestions.

Brgds - Lasse

Hi Anders,

I'll try to answer your questions.

1. Marklin did not report to me that they had used a 3 pole motor. I never saw then do so for any of the older models with 3 pole motors, so don't expect any different today. The "5-star" logo stopped meaning DCM 5 pole motor some time ago, as far as I'm aware.

2. I don't need to protect Marklin, and I don't feel the need to protect "victims of poor quality" either That's what the law is for. If a product is not fit for purpose or is broken under guarantee you can get your money back or the product replaced.

3. I have a couple of locos with these new motors and MFX decoders. 37741 V160, 37165 Br 94 and 37001 OBB 2048 I think have these motor/decoder combinations. I think maybe a couple of others too. If these locos don't have the 3 pole motors then I apologise for misleading you.

4. I ran tests on the 37741, and the slowest speed equated to about 4-5 kph, which looks like about walking speed. The other locos I have not measured, but run slowly to my satisfaction.

5. I thought the mfx+ locos were not part of this discussion? Anyway, I have no experience of any of these.

I am happy with Marklin. They bring great joy into my life. They are a full line manufacturer making lokos, rolling stock, track, signals, electronic control equipment, everything. I believe Lionel is the only other full line maker. This is unusual in MRR and is to be commended. It is easy to have the best signals, or lokos or whatever when those individual products are all you make. I would not only rate Marklin's product line as very good, but excellent. That said, there is always room to improve. Technology moves forward and so must a manufacturer or they will become obsolete and irrelevant.

I never saw this letter as representative of the Marklin-users group. To me the poll was simply for Tom to determine if it was worth his time to proceed with such a letter. No sense spending your time when there is no interest. This letter will not represent Ray's views. I respect that and feel if it is a group letter, then it be identified as "individuals" from an internet forum and not Marklin-users.

Some points are valid. Marklin released the five armature motor with the 3511 back in the '80s. I remember well my dealer singing the praises of this new motor. Their icon for this motor was "5*" and to my knowledge has always remained this icon for any five armature motor. I know manufacturers "reserve the right" to change specifications at any time. Marklin has decided to supply three armature motors in some lokos. Since printed catalogs are not green and relics from the past, most everyone gets their info from the manufacturer's web site. Marklin should correct their icons if the motor specification has changed and they should proof read their material before publishing to be sure it does reflect the product's true specification. It isn't hard to change a web page. This is probably simple loss of oversight on someone's part, but the bottom line is it looks like deceit to some. Why would you provide the chance for such an opinion be derived by some enthusiasts? Fix the icons.

Some things Marklin does exasperates me. Why they block a digital format in their lokos when it is there and complete can only suggests a feeling I have always had with Marklin-"Our way or the highway" and specifically, "You will use Marklin Motorola or MFX and that will be it if you want to run our lokos in a digital format". I chose the highway. I replace every decoder with an ESU decoder that supports DCC. I wish I could buy the lokos without decoders, but I know Marklin will never offer them in such a manner. Please explain to me why releasing DCC in Marklin's decoders is an unreasonable request?

Because I replace my decoders, I do not have a problem with how the lokos run from Marklin. I know that I can fix and correct that. My only problem with the three armature motors is will Marklin support these new motors in the future? Will they support any of their motors in the future? Or will I end up with some nice static display toys? Or a lot of spare parts as I buy another identical loko to replace this dead one? Or cannibalize the motor from another loko to maintain this loko?

The color of the LEDs may seem trivial to some, but it reflects an indifference to simply "do the right" thing and use the correct LED. There was a time when you could not get the color you want or needed, those days are in the past. They tell us of all the detail they put on and in their products, then overlook something so simple and basic. I notice the color of the headlamps when I watch a loko run long before I see the details.

I am supporting others regarding the motor/decoder running characteristics not because it affects me, as stated above it does not, but in solidarity with those who do want an improvement. Tom's tests have proven objectivly the current MFX decoder does not regulate the motor as well as prior generation Marklin decoders, nor current ESU decoders. This is clearly a step backward. Please review the last sentence in my first paragraph of this post. I would think everyone would like their loko to run as well as possible. Perhaps if they ever activate DCC in their decoders, I too will be grateful with an improvement.

Since Ray told us in another thread to keep our misery to our own unhappy threads, I guess it's best to play it safe and continue posting here.

I love Märklin and always have. There are no other brand for me. I bought a couple of Trix waggons once, but the feeling just wasn't the same...
I am however not indifferent to what I buy. Not even when it comes to Märklin. Last year I bought a Dm3 "standard version" and two of the limited editions from a Swedish shop (not delivered yet). I've also bought the norwegian El 12. When I saw that the motors in these locos were 15€ each as spare parts I became a bit worried. I therefore tried to find out more about them. Especially as I READ IN THE MÄRKLIN MAGAZIN THAT GOOD MOTORS DOESN'T COME CHEAP.

So I'm obviously one of those negative guys that have caused depression and sickness to so many on this forum. I apologize for that. But can't there really be anything besides being 100% or 0% happy with Märklin? I think I'm about 90% happy... How can that offend so many people?

I haven't a clear picture about this new standard-motor yet, but I know more now than I did before. Thanks again to everyone who helped me with this. In the future we'll all know if we who are worried have been making a mountain of a molehill.

/Torbjörn

Have you experienced any problems with CS2 yourself?
I have not experienced any problems at all with my CS2 (60215) yet, but I do not use all available features so I am not representative regarding CS2 troubles.
However, there are others who have experienced really "stupid" problems - esp with an update leaving the unit in an useless state - and that is an issue, unsafe updates.

I think he meant current Trix products. I understand exactly what he feels. I have bought some Trix passenger cars so I could get different road numbers. Yeah, it says Marklin under that Trix sticker and other than the wheelsets, they are identical. But the box is different and it doesn't feel like a Marklin product.

That's exactly what I meant! Word-for-word...

/Torbjörn

Even before the 3-pole fiasco, I've always thought that the old 5* HEP icon was obsolete...
The problem was back then, a lot of newer generation of models (post-90s) have been equipped with bell-shaped armature (reputable Maxxon or Faulhaber at the time).

It is actually rather misleading to customers that the old BR50 (3784*) and BR44 (3788*) with DCM motor; and the newer BR 59 or the streamlined BR05 (which shared the same Maxxon motor) have the same 5* HEP symbol.

Arguably, the bell-shaped was also 5-poler at the time.
But we're talking about two completely different motors, two completely different designs from two completely different eras....

Why symbol sharing may create problem in attracting new customers.
Let's look at the following scenarios;
Note that in these scenarios, we have to assume that not every NEW Marklin customers would automatically become members of Stummi or -Users.net....

Case study 1

After reading about Marklin, and grew interested,
a new customer decided to buy a Marklin starter set... let's start with 29757; the seemingly more child-friendly Fire Department train set, which happens to come with DCM motor...

.... well, DCM motor is not really for beginners.... I learned it the hard way.
... the customer might be impressed with the design of the loco, but a bit disappointed with the running qualities, and the difficulty of trying to get it to run a tad smoother and quieter..

He looked at his starter set in the Marklin Catalog, and saw that this starter set has [5* HEP] symbol
He would assume that all models with the same symbol is the same type, and shared exactly the same characteristic...
After all, they're model trains, right?
They should have standardized motor types....
Now he thought; maybe this is the motor type to avoid...

But then he happened to buy a Sinus model as his second loco (previous-generation of 39***);
different symbols for the motor -- maybe I should've give it a try, he thought...
and he then he found, Wow! What an excellent running quality!

... then he learned from the current Marklin Catalog, that all the new 39*** now have 5* HEP symbol instead of the Sine symbol he found in the box of the loco he bought...

The new customers would thought, so, now they're replacing Sinus motor with HEP?
(He didn't know that most of those models come with 3-poler which is better/worse to HEP depending on your perspective)..

End result: Prospective Lost of new customer...

Case Study 2

After reading about Marklin, new customer decide to buy a more user-friendly Starter-set...
... say a 29790 -- the ICE-2 starter set with the large hobby can motor..

As in the previous case, he looked at his starter set in the Marklin Catalog, and saw that this starter set has [5* HEP] symbol....
.....Yes, 29790 is a unique case.... Marklin got the symbol on the box, and they never fixed the website too....

He would assume that all models with the same symbol is the same type, and shared exactly the same characteristic...
After all, they're model trains, right?
They should have standardized motor types....

For his next model, he decided to start buy another model from the 37*** range, with is more upscale compared to his starter set....

And he got lucky...
The first model he bought was a 37116.... a BR18.1 with Faulhaber motor.... with the same [5* HEP] symbol, but already an entirely different motor inside.

Trying it at home, and he's very happy with the running characteristic...
Now, I'm hooked to Marklin, he thought happily.

Then the next model he bought a couple of years later was another 37- model, only this time, his luck ran out...
He bought a 37319 - a BR111 with MFX+ (sounds fancy... full sound too...) from 2014 New Items...

He got home, tried it, and now have to suffer the agony from DCM motor and poor decoder load regulation that he had not experienced before.....
To add the agony, MFX+ is not really compatible to his oldie MS.....
... This sucks! He would thought.... That [5* HEP] symbol is misleading consumers... and MFX+.... That piece of s***!

I thought all the other models with that symbol should have the same running quality as my ICE-2 and BR18.1

I knew my rights! He thought angrily. Screw Marklin! I'm going to look at other brands...
So he logged on to his internet at home, and started to list all of his Marklin items on eBay.

Game over.

I agree with Mike, but I would include in the wording of the letter that it was the result of extensive exchange of comments of fans on this forum.

Mike,
I agree with you.

My 5-pole DCM Re4/4 IIs, even bog standard, is actually quieter, smoother and have better pulling power compared to most of the other DCM models I have. Those Re4/4 II have excellent weight distribution, and are monster pullers. They can even pull better compared to some Sinus models...

And like you, I got hooked up on the design of Marklin's Re4/4 II and Re6/6 models. Personally, I think they have done a fantastic job in sculpting the basic models, that I'm willing to tolerate having a less favorable motor in them.

.... Back then, I did wrote to them when they were going to release the new tooling Re6/6. They delayed the launch for one year, if I'm not mistaken. And I asked them to make the Re6/6 have at least 4-axle powered instead of going cheap and just put the Re4/4 II drivetrain in them....
..... but of course, once they make up their mind about something.........

As existing Marklin customers, we are already more forgiving toward some shortcomings, and willing to overlook some weaknesses for their strengths....

Here's where it got confusing regarding the whole motor fiasco..... Look at the new Eurosprinters with 4-axle power and (probably another) 3-poler motor....

Well, they didn't mention that that the new motor has any flywheel.... I think they are 3-polers..
For others, that's probably how you identify whether the model has a 3-pole motor or not...

I think in the end, Marklin is still heading toward phasing out DCM eventually too.....

I know what I like, and I dislike the direction that Marklin is heading.

Fortunately, there are still over 100 other models with Sinus motor or bell-shaped armature available on eBay that I haven't got my hands on.
Yes, New Marklin items are also competing with eBay offerings.... and at the moment, they're losing...

Hi all,

Seems like this idea is a dead fish
But been interesting to read some of the comments
I guess only time will tell if there was a merit in this discussion
In any case – I hope we could start making some more in depth reviews of the loco’s we buy
At the moment I’m researching to buy a new DSLR camera and its impressive how much in depth reviews and bench mark testing you can find on the net
Looking for in-depth reviews of a 400euro toy loco. Keep looking… At least not available in English
Maybe such an idea could bring us all closer together

Brgds - Lasse

In depth?
The author will be called a rivet counter, a nit picker - and there will be more "unhappy" threads.

Happy Märklin users should not click the button.



Interesting way to see it. I think they have a good reason: higher profit. I don't accept that reason for lower quality or worse performance.

IMHO a speed of 8 km/h at speed step 1 is sufficiently slow - provided the loco starts smooth without a jerk and provided the speed is replicable and stable within +/- 10 %. Some current Märklin models fail. Cheap Märklin Hobby fx locos do not fail that test.
Today I tested a Märklin loco with mouse piano decoder. Speed at speed step one was 0.06 km/h. What a difference.

I cleaned that thread.


You cannot kill an idea. Maybe it was the wrong time - or the wrong place.
Märklin must have a good reason and they do not need our letter.

The bottom line is that we need to communicate with Maerklin. Whether it be about motor issues, finishing (paint, markings, railings, etc), packaging issues or defects and warranty issues, it is essential that these issues be communicated to the company. If they are not submitted, the company will simply assume that everything is fine.

I am not saying that we have to only send negative messages. I am sure that the company already receives loads of mails thanking them for a new item or praising an aspect of the hobby.

What I am saying is that if problems are not addressed, those problems will never be worked on.

At worst, you will receive a reply saying that they have registered your concerns and the matter has been forwarded to the person responsible.

If they fail to respond to a specific concern or issue, then we can consider a group letter, but the letter would be only from those who have signed their names and not from the entire forum, even though it could be mentioned that those involved were all members of said forum. Any such letter should address only one particular issue, since different issues may not be the responsibility of the same people at Maerklin.

Regards

Mike C

Hi Mike,

Aaah, some sense at last.
Thankyou, Mike, I believe that sums up the topic finding nicely.

And thanks Tom for your last post about your reply from Marklin.

regards
Kimball

Strange answer, as most motors in mini-club are 5-poles anyway ;-)

Hi Moritz,

Thanks for sharing the Stummi letter.
Pity you're banned on Stummiforum.
Marklin TV episode 64 was previously discussed on M-U, see here: LINK

Marco

A little off-topic, but even if some hard words were said here regarding this topic, no one was banned off the forum......i think that talks very good about our community

I missed it. Where is this trouble?