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Offline SBB  
#1 Posted : 14 January 2012 02:39:49(UTC)
SBB


Joined: 26/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 25
Location: Brisbane
Installed the crane I got for my dad last year and looks great and works as it should except for one thing - the magnet is not strong enough to pick up a container with a washer stuck inside. Confused It works if a washer is stuck on the outside but that looks horrendous and is not the way it was designed to work.

Anyone else have this problem or have suggestions how to fix it? Could the hanging magnet unit be faulty?


Also one of the two motorized legs moves a fraction later than the other, although I am being extremely pedantic. Any specific tips for this?


The layout has got 50 track change/switch mechanisms on it now, I think its enough BigGrin I'm hoping my dad will finally let me do some landscaping next time I visit!

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Offline DigitalNZ  
#2 Posted : 14 January 2012 03:28:13(UTC)
DigitalNZ

New Zealand   
Joined: 13/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 233
Location: Masterton, New Zealand
Hi SBB,

I really like what you have done so far on your layout, looks really good to me. I haven't used that model crane before but I remember that I had a problem with the coaling tower 76510 that sounds similar to what you are experiencing. Whenever I pressed the button to open the bucked the electromagnet seemed to struggle and would only jump a little and not completely open. It was just a temporary layout and I had connected it directly to the track. As soon as I rewired the layout to use distribution strips it worked perfectly so was obviously not getting enough current.

Have you tried to operate the crane from a 6021/60212-60215 / MS with ugly box / dedicated controller that is connected only to the crane? That should help to rule out whether it is faulty or whether it can't draw enough power. I'd imagine the magnet would have to have quite a bit of current to be generate a field strong enough to pick up the washer through the plastic container.

Let me know if that is any help because I know how frustrating that sort of thing can be.


Regards,

Daniell
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#3 Posted : 14 January 2012 06:10:20(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,659
Location: New Zealand
The magnet on this crane looks to be similar to the one used with the 7051 crane. The 7051 crane on our club layout is able to lift containers that have a small screw inserted into the top of the container.

I think direct metal to magnet contact will generate better lift than magnet contact to a washer through a plastic barrier.
Offline SBB  
#4 Posted : 14 January 2012 09:30:35(UTC)
SBB


Joined: 26/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 25
Location: Brisbane
Thanks very much guys.

I just connected the crane receiver directly to the 6002 transformer but it does not fix the issue. Confused
Am using the rebranded logitech controller it came with. Everything works, just not enough magnet lifting power.

So what to do now? not happy!



Daniel - some more photos of the layout Cool

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thanks 1 user liked this useful post by SBB
Offline DigitalNZ  
#5 Posted : 14 January 2012 10:47:29(UTC)
DigitalNZ

New Zealand   
Joined: 13/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 233
Location: Masterton, New Zealand
Well done there SBB. I'll have to get something set up again sooner that I thought! I have also gained a new found appreciation for curved turnouts! It's a shame that I didn't take any photos of the last set up I was running. (It's given me a new after-school project!) I'll add some pictures of our BR 44 and 05 to the photography section later on.

You've got some excellent models there, I love our crocodile along with our Re 460 and Ae 6/6. - An Ae 8/14 is very high up on my wish-list!

I'm hate to say that I seem to be stumped about the crane problem. My grandfather buys everything and I work out how to make everything work and my crane problem confused me for ages. Perhaps as BDNZ suggested a screw in the top of the container may offer a more suitable (however still not ideal) alternative to the washer idea. I'll keep thinking about it though.

Regards,

Daniell

Edited by user 14 January 2012 20:44:18(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

DigitalNZ attached the following image(s):
IMG_0337.jpg
Offline hgk  
#6 Posted : 15 January 2012 05:19:37(UTC)
hgk


Joined: 10/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 455
Location: Pacific Ocean
A dc supply with a slightly higher voltage should give some boost to it.
Offline BrandonVA  
#7 Posted : 16 January 2012 15:54:35(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
The magnet on this crane looks to be similar to the one used with the 7051 crane. The 7051 crane on our club layout is able to lift containers that have a small screw inserted into the top of the container.

I think direct metal to magnet contact will generate better lift than magnet contact to a washer through a plastic barrier.


I see the same thing with my 7051, it prefers direct contact. Right now I have it wired directly to a spare 30va transformer, so I know it's getting good power. If you want to keep using it with the washer inside the container, you could try filing/milling the inside of the container lid to make the thickness of plastic between the washer less. I've looked at these before, I know there's not much to work with...but a little shaving may help as long as you don't care too much about the container.
Offline MikeR  
#8 Posted : 28 July 2015 22:33:52(UTC)
MikeR

United States   
Joined: 26/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 263
Location: Denver
I have a 76500 portal crane which I would like to use to move containers. I am having the same problem as SBB trying to lift a container. Gluing a piece of metal inside the container does not work as the 1.5mm plastic top is too thick. The decoder is supplying 15volts DC to the magnet so I was wondering if gluing a rare earth magnet inside a container would work. I would have to be careful to get the correct pole pointing to the electromagnet but this might supply sufficient magnetism through the plastic to allow the container to be lifted and then disengaged when the current is switched off?

Does anyone have any thoughts on this approach?

Mike
Digital - C track with CS2 and Railroad&Co TrainController; feedback using LocoIO via a Locobuffer
Analog - M track with solid centre rail (after C track layout is complete)
Collect all Eras - especially Crocodiles
Member of ETE
Previously a member of the Marklin Modellers' Group Johannesburg
Offline Chook  
#9 Posted : 29 July 2015 03:43:00(UTC)
Chook

Australia   
Joined: 15/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 234
Location: Perth, Western Australia.
Mike if the electro magnet in the crane runs from AC then the field from that magnet will be reversing at the same rate as your AC mains supply (50 Hz?)
In this instance I would expect a noisy union between the magnets and not a lot more lift.

Regards....Chook.
Offline MikeR  
#10 Posted : 29 July 2015 08:31:42(UTC)
MikeR

United States   
Joined: 26/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 263
Location: Denver
Hi Chook

I checked the output from the decoder that is used for the electro-magnet and it is 15v DC. That is why I think a magnet in the container will work. I will be trying later today and will let you know. The only problem will be if the output polarity to the electro-magnet is reversed each time by the decoder to prevent the electro-magnet becoming magnetised.

Regards
Mike
Digital - C track with CS2 and Railroad&Co TrainController; feedback using LocoIO via a Locobuffer
Analog - M track with solid centre rail (after C track layout is complete)
Collect all Eras - especially Crocodiles
Member of ETE
Previously a member of the Marklin Modellers' Group Johannesburg
Offline Chook  
#11 Posted : 29 July 2015 11:40:21(UTC)
Chook

Australia   
Joined: 15/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 234
Location: Perth, Western Australia.
Ok sounds like you are in with a chance Mike.
It also depends on how they have constructed the poles in the crane electromagnet as to how it will latch onto your magnet.
Nothing beats experimentation.

Regards....Chook.
Offline MikeR  
#12 Posted : 29 July 2015 22:09:14(UTC)
MikeR

United States   
Joined: 26/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 263
Location: Denver
The addition of the magnet into the container works. I was able to lift, move and deposit the container using the electro-magnet on the portal crane. The problem I had was that the magnets I purchased were too powerful (round magnets 18mm dia by 2mm thick) so I had to add an additional 5mm spacer (by experimentation) between the roof of the container and the magnet to give me a total distance of 6.5mm between the magnet and the electro-magnet.

Regards
Mike
Digital - C track with CS2 and Railroad&Co TrainController; feedback using LocoIO via a Locobuffer
Analog - M track with solid centre rail (after C track layout is complete)
Collect all Eras - especially Crocodiles
Member of ETE
Previously a member of the Marklin Modellers' Group Johannesburg
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by MikeR
Offline MikeR  
#13 Posted : 31 July 2015 23:27:39(UTC)
MikeR

United States   
Joined: 26/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 263
Location: Denver
I have now installed magnets into my containers so that I am able to lift and move all containers in my yard using the Portal Crane. The following is my experience with the installation.

  1. I initially purchased 18mm dia by 2mm thick magnets. These were far too powerful and the supplier was kind enough to swap these for the following magnets which worked well with my range of plastic containers - 6mm dia by 1.5mm thick, 7mm dia by 1 mm thick and 8mm dia by 1.5mm thick.
  2. I was surprised by the amount of time taken to fit the correct magnets to each container. It is essential that the magnets supply sufficient magnetism to enable the electro-magnet to lift the load but are not too strong to prevent the electro-magnet disengaging. It is necessary to change the selection of the magnet to achieve this and to also experiment with various card and paper spacers to achieve the correct balance for each container individually. In some of the containers I used 2 smaller magnets as this gave me the correct power.
  3. The power of each magnet, even of the same size, is slightly different, which coupled with slight weight and differences in the thickness of the roof plastic of the containers mean that once a magnet has been successfully installed in a particular container, there is still tuning necessary for other containers of the same type.
  4. I used one magnet (which I had marked to give the correct polarity) on the outside of the container to temporarily hold the magnet inside the container whilst doing the gluing. Hot melt glue was used to permanently hold the interior magnet/s and spacers in position. This enabled me to change magnets, thickness of the spacer and positioning fairly easily during the tuning process.
  5. It is easiest to instal magnets in containers having a removable base. Access through the doors of the containers was possible with models of 20' containers - I did not try with 40' model containers as all mine had removable bases.


Mike
Digital - C track with CS2 and Railroad&Co TrainController; feedback using LocoIO via a Locobuffer
Analog - M track with solid centre rail (after C track layout is complete)
Collect all Eras - especially Crocodiles
Member of ETE
Previously a member of the Marklin Modellers' Group Johannesburg
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by MikeR
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