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Offline Nielsenr  
#1 Posted : 16 October 2011 20:19:30(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Hey all!!

I was visiting my friend Roger, a member here on the forum (Dodger0325), to help him with what should have been some simple wiring, contact tracks, S88s, and routes. We came across something I have not seen before. Was hoping others might share some insight.

Roger had a couple of simple sidings setup on opposite sides of a basic oval for testing purposes. He set things up to have trains alternate stopping at the sidings. The first siding worked ok, although I offered some modifications. The second siding route would not work. The contact tracks were not registering in the CS2. I checked the wiring, soldered up some connections, but the contact tracks would not work appropriately. Occasionally they would “flash” but not register a solid signal. We check the wheels on the rolling stock we were using to make sure they were clean. We made sure the track was clean. The problem persisted.

I ended up creating a layout screen that had all 16 S88 contacts listed and we tried them one at a time. Not a good result. A number of inputs would not register or they would "flash". Sometimes if I put my finger on one of the unused inputs, the input being tested would register solid. BTW, this was a brand new S88. He had an old S88 he acquired from Ebay so we tried it. It too had problems. We tried a different cable, still had problems. He has a second CS2 so we tried it. The results were better, but not perfect. Between the 2 S88s I would say there were 10 of the 32 inputs that were not working correctly.

I then setup a layout screen with 32 S88 inputs and connected the two S88s together. With one of the CS2s I now had 29 of the 32 S88 inputs working correctly. We swapped to the other CS2 and 14 of the 32 S88 inputs failed to work!! Arrgghh!! What is going on??? My experience with S88s has been that they work quite well. Since Roger had updated to the new CS software via USB, I thought maybe there was something wrong with it. My layout is in pieces as I build my wood floor modules for my carpet bahn and I just updated my CS2 over the Internet this past week so I did a test with 2 of my S88s, one a newer style Marklin the other one that I built from a kit from LDT. They worked perfect, so it is not the software.

I guess the next move is to try his S88s with my CS2. Or my S88s with his CS2s. Has anyone seen anything like this before?? I could say that it is possible the one S88 he got from Ebay could have been damaged, but the new S88 should have worked fine.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks!!

Robert
Offline Renato  
#2 Posted : 17 October 2011 11:51:07(UTC)
Renato

Italy   
Joined: 19/03/2004(UTC)
Posts: 976
Location: Gorizia, Italy
Hi Robert,

I have no idea, as I use one S88 with the CU6021.

Only one question: is the arrow on the S88 pointing towards the digital controller?

Cheers

Renato
Offline cookee_nz  
#3 Posted : 17 October 2011 12:28:39(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,948
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Hi Robert,

Just wondering if you have anyone nearby with an Intellibox? - it has a good S88 monitor mode and it would at least help isolate whether the problem is related to the S88 and/or track, or is related to the CS2?. If you get the same symptoms, then you can probably rule out the CS2 as being the culprit.

If you isolate it to the S88 and/or track, and you are getting the same symptoms regardless of which S88 you have connected, then it would point toward it being something odd in the track.

Just wondering, let's assume you have a total of 32 contacts, so 2 x S88 units, if you connect one S88 to the first set of 16 by itself, how reliable is it?, if it's ok, then what if you swap that with the other S88, still reliable?

If so, then you could try the same thing with the second set of 16 contacts (17 - 32), one S88 and then the other. The aim here is to check the reliability of the feedback from the tracks one S88 at a time. If the problem only happens with both S88's are daisy-chained, I wonder what the overall power consumption of the layout is?

What's the reliability like with NO other devices connected so that you have maximum power available?

Oh, and what it you test the S88's both connected to the CS2 but disconnected form the layout, ie manually trigger the inputs?, that might help isolate also.

Hope these pointers help.

Cheers

Steve
Melbourne
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline nevw  
#4 Posted : 17 October 2011 12:48:26(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
AS stated previously. they must be connected in the correct orientation. I made that mistake and they dont work. marvellous when connected correctly.
NN
PS: I make my own contact tracks, snip the outer rail connectors on a Piece of C TRack, Isolate the rail. (2 red thingys) . Bingo one isolation/contact track. connect up a wire from the S88 to the isolated rail
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline cookee_nz  
#5 Posted : 17 October 2011 13:08:11(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,948
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: nevw Go to Quoted Post
AS stated previously. they must be connected in the correct orientation. I made that mistake and they dont work. marvellous when connected correctly.
NN
PS: I make my own contact tracks, snip the outer rail connectors on a Piece of C TRack, Isolate the rail. (2 red thingys) . Bingo one isolation/contact track. connect up a wire from the S88 to the isolated rail


Yes this is of course correct, I just made the assumption that the correct connections with regard to orientation had already been made from the various instruction leaflets etc but it's a point worth stressing because it's easy to overlook.

Cheers

Cookee
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline Nielsenr  
#6 Posted : 17 October 2011 18:12:22(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions.

@Renato
Yes, the cable was installed correctly, the arrow pointing towards the CS2.

@Steve
That is exactly how I did my test. Although the contact track was in the layout, I moved that one single contact track to each of the 32 S88 inputs. I did not try to take the track out of the little oval. That would be something to try. At first, the S88 module sat in the middle of the oval with the flat cable connecting it to the CS2 running under a section of track. Most of my test were done with the cable NOT under the track for fear that the cable was picking up interference from the track. As an aside, as I am building up my wood modules for my floor layout (see separate topic), I am using Ethernet cable wired to standard S88 connectors to take advantage of the twisted pairs in the Ethernet cable.

@Nev
That too is exactly how the contact track was made ... clipping out the little connector at both ends and adding the little red isolators. As said above, each S88 input was then checked against the same contact track.

Roger (Dodger0325) is stopping by my house this evening and bringing his S88 modules to check on my CS2. I will do the tests on an isolated section of track (that is the way I check my S88s that I am building from LDT kits after I have completed soldering them up). I will post the results of those tests later this evening.

Thanks again for all of your thoughts and suggestions.

Robert
Offline cookee_nz  
#7 Posted : 17 October 2011 22:26:18(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,948
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: Nielsenr Go to Quoted Post
Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions.

@Renato
Yes, the cable was installed correctly, the arrow pointing towards the CS2.

@Steve
That is exactly how I did my test. Although the contact track was in the layout, I moved that one single contact track to each of the 32 S88 inputs. I did not try to take the track out of the little oval. That would be something to try. At first, the S88 module sat in the middle of the oval with the flat cable connecting it to the CS2 running under a section of track. Most of my test were done with the cable NOT under the track for fear that the cable was picking up interference from the track. As an aside, as I am building up my wood modules for my floor layout (see separate topic), I am using Ethernet cable wired to standard S88 connectors to take advantage of the twisted pairs in the Ethernet cable.

@Nev
That too is exactly how the contact track was made ... clipping out the little connector at both ends and adding the little red isolators. As said above, each S88 input was then checked against the same contact track.

Roger (Dodger0325) is stopping by my house this evening and bringing his S88 modules to check on my CS2. I will do the tests on an isolated section of track (that is the way I check my S88s that I am building from LDT kits after I have completed soldering them up). I will post the results of those tests later this evening.

Thanks again for all of your thoughts and suggestions.

Robert


Cheers Robert, it sounds like you are working through it methodically, I'm sure you'll nail it soon enouugh.

Can you share how you make the connection from Ethernet to the S88 - you say you are using standard S88 connectors, they are just impossible to find here, but I do have one that I brought across from NZ so I must have found one somewhere, problem is I can't remember where, nor what the correct name of the connector is to do a proper search.

Sadly we don't have a Conrad here, closest is Jaycar but they are often staffed by 'sales assistants' much like the 'crew' at McDonalds - they'll sell you what they have a pre-programmed button for but ask them to leave the pickle out of your Burger or count out change without the till telling them how much and they turn into blubbering fools. Jaycar are no different. No technical skill on the shop floor, not even enough to contact their purchasing team to see if what you want can be sourced. Cursing

That's my rant done.

Breath slowly, breath deeply.

Aaaahhhh. Much better.

Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline nevw  
#8 Posted : 17 October 2011 23:29:49(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
Steve,
The Standard" S88 Connectors are the old style Marklin Connectors, No Safety Shield and thicker Plug Shafts. Now currently available from Brawa.

We must have a great Jaycar store here. all are knowledgeable and helpful even when the Customer is not.
I asked for an item "Connector Strip" showed me one Ok. I said no I want one where all of the contacts are connected.

AH , he said, you want a Bus Bar. will this size do the job. overcome my seniors moment.

Brilliant.
nn
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline dodger0325  
#9 Posted : 17 October 2011 23:34:49(UTC)
dodger0325

United States   
Joined: 06/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 95
Location: ft lauderdale
Thank you all for your help
Tonight i am going over to Robert to test my S88s and i will take one of my central stations aswel.
I only hope it is the S88s with the problems cuz i dont want to send the CS2's back to M i dont feel like losing them for 3 monthsCursing
Again thank you all for your help
Special thanks to Robert for taking the time and the effort to come and c me with all my problems
Thanks my friend
Roger
Offline Nielsenr  
#10 Posted : 18 October 2011 00:03:13(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
@Cookee
I assume we are both talking about the same connectors, the one that is on the end of the flat ribbon cable.

The one I have found that works is from Tyco Electronics (TE Connectivity), part number 640441-6. There is also a strain relief needed, part number 643075-6. Here is what they look like. The plug on the left and the strain relief on the right.

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

Here are links to a company, Mouser, for the parts. Mouser claims to ship everywhere with 19 locations around the world.

The plug ...
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDe...252baLxMG9HseJX9ZRjnI%3d

... and the strain relief ...
[img]http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity-AMP/643075-6/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtsLRyDR9nM1w%2fb70V3tmfC8CYh7D5hGzs%3d[/img]

As you can see, they run around US$0.28 for the plug and US$0.30 for the strain relief. I have just found a source here in the US (Jameco) where I can pick up a third party manufacturer for about US$0.09 each. And I just get the Ethernet cable from a local hardware chain, Lowes or Home Depot. I just get the bulk cable for Cat 5E. I skin the outer insulation off and then use a small screwdriver to push the individual wires into each of their receptacles. I then check that I have continuity and then place the strain relief on. And remember each end has to be inserted into the connectors in reverse order. When I update my thread on my wood modules for my floor layout, I'll show some photos of bring the S88 cable and contact wires from one module to the next using 9 and 15 pin miniature sub D connectors.

@Roger
Thanks for the kind words!! Your welcome!! No problem, this is how we all learn.

Will post later on how the testing goes tonight ... now back to cleaning up the house a bit for Roger coming over tonight and working on some more wiring to my modules.

Robert
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Nielsenr
Offline cookee_nz  
#11 Posted : 18 October 2011 06:35:46(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,948
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: Nielsenr Go to Quoted Post
@Cookee
I assume we are both talking about the same connectors, the one that is on the end of the flat ribbon cable.

The one I have found that works is from Tyco Electronics (TE Connectivity), part number 640441-6. There is also a strain relief needed, part number 643075-6. Here is what they look like. The plug on the left and the strain relief on the right.

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

Here are links to a company, Mouser, for the parts. Mouser claims to ship everywhere with 19 locations around the world.

The plug ...
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDe...252baLxMG9HseJX9ZRjnI%3d

... and the strain relief ...
[img]http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity-AMP/643075-6/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtsLRyDR9nM1w%2fb70V3tmfC8CYh7D5hGzs%3d[/img]

As you can see, they run around US$0.28 for the plug and US$0.30 for the strain relief. I have just found a source here in the US (Jameco) where I can pick up a third party manufacturer for about US$0.09 each. And I just get the Ethernet cable from a local hardware chain, Lowes or Home Depot. I just get the bulk cable for Cat 5E. I skin the outer insulation off and then use a small screwdriver to push the individual wires into each of their receptacles. I then check that I have continuity and then place the strain relief on. And remember each end has to be inserted into the connectors in reverse order. When I update my thread on my wood modules for my floor layout, I'll show some photos of bring the S88 cable and contact wires from one module to the next using 9 and 15 pin miniature sub D connectors.

@Roger
Thanks for the kind words!! Your welcome!! No problem, this is how we all learn.

Will post later on how the testing goes tonight ... now back to cleaning up the house a bit for Roger coming over tonight and working on some more wiring to my modules.

Robert


Thanks for the info Robert, yes same connector as I have here.

I did manage to find a similar style except that the connectors are all individual and require either crimping or soldering but would still work in a pinch.

I was planning to use flat ribbon cable, just the standard multicolour type and simply use every other wire so that I have the spacing between the 6 leads, but UTP would probably work just as well.

Cheers

Steve
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline Nielsenr  
#12 Posted : 18 October 2011 09:28:41(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Steve,

I should have posted a photo with the cable installed. Let me know if you would like to see one. The thing about Ethernet cable is that the wires are twisted. You get less noise and interference from twisted cable than flat ribbon cable. That is one of the reasons there is supposed to be a limit on the length of the S88 cable. And it is why Ethernet cable can handle the faster speeds. That having been said, on my floor bahn I am building on wood modules, I may be pushing that length to the limit. I have a six foot cable between the first S88 and the CS2 with a sub miniature D connector and terminal strip in between. The second S88 is two boards over, about 7 to 8 feet away, with two of the D connectors between boards and terminal strips on the boards as an intermediate connection point for wiring purposes. Right now, I have tested these two and they are working fine. However, a third S88 will be added but it is around 25 linear feet away from the second one and has to go through about 9 of the D connecotrs and terminal strips on each board. I am not real confident that is going to work. We will see real soon!! LOL!!

Robert
Offline Nielsenr  
#13 Posted : 18 October 2011 09:45:43(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Well, it is now 3:30am local time. I thought I would give an update on Roger's S88 problem. I set up a simple test configuration. A track with power from the CS, on extra straight track, and the typical home made contact track. We started by using my CS2. After I got the wheels cleaned off on the boxcar I was using for testing, I hooked up each of Roger's S88s one at a time. Moving the connector from one input to the next, they worked perfectly, as expected. Roger brought one of his two CS2s with him, so we hooked it up. The results were not good. A number of the inputs would not register. If I put my finger over an adjacent input, sometimes it would work. It was the same for both of his S88s. He had done his S/W upgrade via USB, so I went ahead and set up his CS to do an upgrade over the Internet, thinking that maybe the USB upgrade might have gotten corrupted. The upgrade went through on the second try. We tried the test again and there was still many of the inputs that would not register. I am at a loss ... Confused

I know the CS initiates the polling of the S88, so it seems to imply that the S88 H/W or S/W in Roger's CS2 is not functioning properly. But his second CS2 was doing the same thing. Can it be that one individual has two CS2s that are messed up with the S88s?? If any body has any ideas to try, please throw it out here. The S88s appear to be ok since they worked on my CS2. I believe both of Roger's CSs are 60214s and mine is a 60213. I told him to email Dr Tom to see if he has any thoughts. The last resort will be to send them back one at a time to Germany for repair.

It is now 15 minutes to 4am here in South Florida and I swore I would get to bed earlier than last night which was 5:30am. I think it is time for a few of my favorite cocktails and maybe a shot or two of Tequila!! Cheers!!! BigGrin

Robert
Offline efel  
#14 Posted : 18 October 2011 22:05:17(UTC)
efel

France   
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 800
I guess you have connected the "T" of the s88 to the grounded rail?

Fred

Edited by user 21 October 2011 09:48:18(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

thanks 2 users liked this useful post by efel
Offline Nielsenr  
#15 Posted : 18 October 2011 22:39:50(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Fred,

Thanks for your response. In all of my dealings with the S88 module, I have never had to use the T connector. My understanding from the Marklin manuals is that the T connector is used with reed switches on non 3 rail tracks to bring a source of power to the reed switch to then feed back to the S88 input. With contact tracks and three rail power, that source is the outer rail power feeding through the wheelset to the other outer rail that is isolated.

Robert
Offline Fredrik  
#16 Posted : 18 October 2011 23:49:33(UTC)
Fredrik

Sweden   
Joined: 13/07/2004(UTC)
Posts: 642
The "T"-connection is important!

When S88 is used in combination with CS1 or CS2 one of the connected S88:s must be connected to the common ground ("brown") of the CS2 track-output. If not the S88:s do not work properly.
Fredrik.
*ECoS 2 + ECoSDetector + SwitchPilot + ECoSTerminal; *Z21 + Loconet + Digikeijs + MGP; **CS3+ + CdB (** coming soon...)
WWW: MJ-fjärren
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Fredrik
Offline Nielsenr  
#17 Posted : 19 October 2011 01:05:08(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Thanks for your response Fredrik.

It is odd that the Marklin manual for the S88 makes no mention of this. Can you or anyone else supply me with written information from Marklin that supports this requirement? I thought the ground was supplied via the S88 cable from the CS (fifth pin??). I have scoured the Web but can find no requirement for the T connection. Is this a change with the 60214 since my 60213 works fine? I will have Roger try and it see if it solves the problem.

Any info on this would be appreciated.

Thanks!!

Robert
Offline dodger0325  
#18 Posted : 19 October 2011 02:50:14(UTC)
dodger0325

United States   
Joined: 06/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 95
Location: ft lauderdale
Thank you Fredrik
You made me the happiest person in USABigGrin BigGrin BigGrin Love Love Love
I could not think about sending both my CS2's back to M
When i connected the T to the track ground everything worked perfect.
Thank you very much for your help
PS when you ever come to the States Robert and me owe you a dinner or 2 and a night on the town BigGrin BigGrin BigGrin
Roger
Offline Nielsenr  
#19 Posted : 19 October 2011 03:36:53(UTC)
Nielsenr

United States   
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 883
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Roger, glad to see a solution was finally found.

But, as a follow up, could the reason things worked on my 60213 and not on Roger's 60214s be due to the difference in the galvanic isolation or lack of it between the two models of the CS2??

Robert
Offline Chris6382chris  
#20 Posted : 19 October 2011 04:51:27(UTC)
Chris6382chris

United States   
Joined: 27/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,215
Location: Middle of the US
Robert, Roger and Fredrick, this post and the outcome is why I love this forum. Robert way to work this problem and help Roger, and Fredrick, great answer.

Chris

P.S. I do not have either version of CS so I couldn't answer your last question Robert.
Offline efel  
#21 Posted : 19 October 2011 05:58:23(UTC)
efel

France   
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 800
Originally Posted by: dodger0325 Go to Quoted Post

PS when you ever come to the States Robert and me owe you a dinner or 2 and a night on the town BigGrin BigGrin BigGrin
Roger


I certainly will BigGrin BigGrin BigGrin
Fred
Offline efel  
#22 Posted : 20 October 2011 21:54:39(UTC)
efel

France   
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 800
Originally Posted by: Nielsenr Go to Quoted Post

But, as a follow up, could the reason things worked on my 60213 and not on Roger's 60214s be due to the difference in the galvanic isolation or lack of it between the two models of the CS2??

Robert

Of course!
And in your case, I would avoid to connect the T connection of the s88 to the grounded rail!
Fred
Offline Fredrik  
#23 Posted : 20 October 2011 22:56:34(UTC)
Fredrik

Sweden   
Joined: 13/07/2004(UTC)
Posts: 642
Originally Posted by: dodger0325 Go to Quoted Post
Thank you Fredrik
You made me the happiest person in USABigGrin BigGrin BigGrin Love Love Love
I could not think about sending both my CS2's back to M
When i connected the T to the track ground everything worked perfect.
Thank you very much for your help
PS when you ever come to the States Robert and me owe you a dinner or 2 and a night on the town BigGrin BigGrin BigGrin
Roger


You're welcome! :)

Can't say why it works on the 60213 as this one also "should" need that connection - guess you're just lucky... Eventually you'll get the problem when you least expect it - then connect the T!

It's written already in the FAQ on the German pages of M* about the CS1 - but it also applies to CS2 just can't find that right now (and I'm pretty sure I've read it in a Märklin Magazin somewhere). My exchange 60214 works just the same - as did the 60213 I had - without this ground connection it just wouldn't work...

And - you bet I'll collect that offer one day!! Cool LOL
Fredrik.
*ECoS 2 + ECoSDetector + SwitchPilot + ECoSTerminal; *Z21 + Loconet + Digikeijs + MGP; **CS3+ + CdB (** coming soon...)
WWW: MJ-fjärren
Offline dodger0325  
#24 Posted : 21 October 2011 00:57:57(UTC)
dodger0325

United States   
Joined: 06/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 95
Location: ft lauderdale
Hi Fred
I am so sorry that i did not thank you for your post on the S88.
I just tought that you and Fredrik where the same person .
I do sincerly apollogize for this.
When you ever come to South Florida your are automatically invited to go out with us aswel and i am serious.
Or when i go in 2012 to the Marklin days and if you would be there i owe you a great night on the town.
I hope you do accept my apologies i am trully sorry
Roger
Offline efel  
#25 Posted : 21 October 2011 09:47:10(UTC)
efel

France   
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 800
Thank for your post Roger.
I quite understand the mix up between the names.
...and I was joking....
I'm glad your problem is solved!

Fred
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