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Offline Collector  
#1 Posted : 20 August 2016 15:48:43(UTC)
Collector


Joined: 17/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 147
Location: Europe
Hi All,

I noticed that for some reason the passenger cars seem to often not be in scale 1:87 but in 1:100 or 1:93 instead.

Some questions:

-Why is this? Seems strange give H0 is supposed to be 1:87

-Are the cars just too short or is the width and height also compromised?

-Is this with the case with all long passenger cars from Marklin?

-Does anyone else build passenger cars in true 1:87

If a prototype is 26.4m (??) you would expect the models to be 30.3cm but I have not seen a single one in the catalog which is that size Confused


Regards,

Mike
DRG/DB/SBB Epoche II/III/IV
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 20 August 2016 16:01:51(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

Märklin made models with a length of 303 mm in a set of three - DB double stock coaches 43597.
Schürzenwägen and Umbauwägen from Märklin are 1:87 - so are the Pike coaches and other models of older rolling stock.
ICE 1, 2, and 3 are too short, but I think that Thalys and TGV have the correct length. There are some 292 mm SNCF/SNCB coaches in 1:87, too.

Märklin compromise length, width. and other details (length of trucks, position of pivot points, ...).

Some locos also have reduced length.

Sometimes they write 1:93.5 in the catalogue while items actually are 1:97.5.

A diner of 27.5 m leads to 316 mm model length.

I have 303 and 316 mm coaches from Roco. I have 303 mm coaches from Piko and Trix. There are other brands like LS Models and ACME.

See also:
https://www.marklin-user...ength-Scale-Mystery.aspx
https://www.marklin-user...eal-life--1-1#post488010
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline NS1200  
#3 Posted : 20 August 2016 16:22:27(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Compromises in scale length are made to cater for the sharp curves of 1/87 track.
The radia of M standard track do not come even close to real life curved track.
This is of course done to allow us to run modeltrains on a limited surface in house.
If reallife curves would be made in 1/87 scale you probably would need the entire house for a layout.

Using Marklin curved track in R2 you see that coaches which are not to scale are still sticking out,something you only see in shunting yards in real life.
Probably coaches which have true 1/87 scale would derail in those curves,unless adjusted couplings would be used.

Cheers,

Paul.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 20 August 2016 16:41:30(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Probably coaches which have true 1/87 scale would derail in those curves,unless adjusted couplings would be used.
At a club meeting I ran 303 mm Piko coaches and 303/316 Roco coaches on R1 C track (360 mm) without any problems.

And that was to my surprise because I equipped the Piko coaches with the additional door steps from the goodies bag. Theoretically you need at least R3 C track to operate those coaches with door steps.
Minimum radius at home is R2 and I tested with one Piko coach whether or not the door steps can be used on R2.

Minimum radius for the Märklin/Trix 303 mm coaches is 360 mm.

All this with standard close couplers. The guiding mechanisms of those coaches usually can handle the 358 mm radius from the two-rail world.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#5 Posted : 20 August 2016 19:01:12(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
True to scale coaches will not negotiate a R1 curve with catenary masts and signals next to track. The "1:93,5" coach is the closest compromise that does not cause any problems.

The coaches are shortened in length and a tiny bit in width as well.

The rule of thumb is more a 282 mm rule than 1:93,5 scale. As Tom mentions the dining coaches are longer. The rule is: If a coach in 1:87 is longer than 282 mm, it will be made 282 mm. This is also why dining coaches has the same length as passenger coaches. No coach can be longer than 282 mm if everything is to work with all the accessories.

It does not really have anything to do with negotiating the curves themselves. It is about the accessories. Most 1:87 coaches will negotiate tight curves without problems, all though some cannot do this with all details attached.

Some time ago I wrote an article on the subject: http://railway.zone/post...e-shorter-length-coaches

I have recently started to include 282 mm coaches in my collection. I am no longer bothered by the shortened length as it is barely visible as long as I do not mix. I like some of the Märklin sets and if I want them I will have to accept it. I have come to love the fact that I can just take them out of the box and not have to fit thousands of details. It just works, and the price is often cheaper than other brands. Yes, the detailing is not that of an expensive coach, but that is not my concern. I find the Märklin coaches great at the price, and I love the plug and play lighting.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
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Offline dickinsonj  
#6 Posted : 21 August 2016 01:36:02(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Märklin makes models that work well in the artificial environment found on most, if not all model railway layouts. Our layouts are in general very, very far from actual scale dimensions and it seems odd to me that we still expect the trains to be made to a perfect scale.

IMO If you primarily collect trains to look at them in static settings, then by all means only buy those models which are to perfect scale. I see this as a very worthwhile pursuit, although it is not mine.

If on the other hand you buy trains to run and enjoy them, then buy ones that work well and don't obsess about perfect scale. This is simply a different worthwhile pursuit and it is mine.

We have lots of choices. Make the ones that work the best for you and don't forget - HAVE FUN. After all that is what this hobby is all about!
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 21 August 2016 07:58:20(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
Märklin makes models that work well in the artificial environment found on most, if not all model railway layouts.
With Märklin, read the product description carefully and look for warnings like this: "he cars are a scale reproduction without limitations of all of the dimensions . Minimum radius for operation is 360 mm / 14-3/16" (when there is an unobstructed loading gauge)."

Coaches with such a warning can cause problem with bridges (R1 or R2), catenary masts, tunnel portals, ...

Expect the same issues with long models from other brands.

I made my decision: no more coaches at reduced length for me. But that's a matter of taste we discussed here many times before.

HAVE FUN! Get information before the purchase to avoid disappointments after the purchase.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline xxup  
#8 Posted : 21 August 2016 09:03:44(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,458
Location: Australia
I am really happy with the choices that Marklin makes with regard to coaches. The only true scale coach I ever owned was an Orient Express sleeper from ACME. I was going to buy the whole set until I realised that it hit the m-track turnout lanterns.. So it was sold.. While I run the longer trains on the R2 (outer) track, I have run the Thalys in the R1 track - it really does not look good going through R1 curves.. Blushing
Adrian
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Australia flag by abFlags.com
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Offline Collector  
#9 Posted : 21 August 2016 09:04:07(UTC)
Collector


Joined: 17/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 147
Location: Europe

Never thought about that radius issue.

I would think that compromising the length will not really be obvious when you look at the models but I suspect that compromising the width and the particularly the height will be much more obvious.

Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

Sometimes they write 1:93.5 in the catalogue while items actually are 1:97.5.

A diner of 27.5 m leads to 316 mm model length.

I have 303 and 316 mm coaches from Roco. I have 303 mm coaches from Piko and Trix. There are other brands like LS Models and ACME.

See also:
https://www.marklin-user...ength-Scale-Mystery.aspx
https://www.marklin-user...eal-life--1-1#post488010



Are those Roco coaches "substantial"? I have some 100% plastic (apart from the wheels) Jouef (?) coaches which I am guessing were produced 45 years ago or so and they did not run well at all. They are so light they will be pulled out of the track in corners.


Regarding the details you have to put on yourself, I have never had an issue with (lack of) details on Marklin coaches. Knda don't like stuff breaking of when something occasionally derails.
DRG/DB/SBB Epoche II/III/IV
Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 21 August 2016 09:57:06(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Modern coaches are "all plastic" with a metal piece in the bottom to add weight - applies to Märklin, Piko, Roco and probably many others, too.

Add-on parts with Roco vary from "none" to "many". I don't have issues with them falling off when trains derail.
Some Roco coaches are actually Fleischmann coaches in Roco boxes. Well, some Märklin coaches are actually Fleischmann coaches in Märklin boxes.

With coaches, the height is not compromised AFAIK.
I have the latest Märklin Popwagen set which includes a full-length full-width dining coach along with "new longer length" coaches that have compromised width and length.
The dining coach is much wider then the other coaches. I know the proportions are wrong and I notice this when I see the "fat" diner between the "slim" coaches.
The diner is wider in real life, but the proportions are wrong.

The Roco RAm has full length and the powered car looks very impressive - longer than most other locomotives.
With the Märklin RAm each coach is too short by about an attoparsec and the powered car only has the length of many other uncompromised locos.
Thus things that are special in real life look ordinary as a compromised model.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline NS1200  
#11 Posted : 21 August 2016 10:07:16(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
About length of Marklin coaches:

Count the number of windows,excluding the white blanked toiletwindows.
You will find that tinplate coaches have less windows than the longer plastic coaches.
There you have the compromise in length.
Width and height wise i do not see much difference between the two,it is the length which makes the difference.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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Offline Collector  
#12 Posted : 21 August 2016 10:50:24(UTC)
Collector


Joined: 17/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 147
Location: Europe
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

The Roco RAm has full length and the powered car looks very impressive - longer than most other locomotives.
With the Märklin RAm each coach is too short by about an attoparsec and the powered car only has the length of many other uncompromised locos.
Thus things that are special in real life look ordinary as a compromised model.


I actually have the Marklin variety of that one together with some extra caches but I dont recall ever having run the the thing on my layout when I still had one.

What is an attoparsec? (a google search did not help)
DRG/DB/SBB Epoche II/III/IV
Offline sjlauritsen  
#13 Posted : 21 August 2016 12:04:54(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: Collector Go to Quoted Post
What is an attoparsec? (a google search did not help)

An expensive way of saying 3.1 cm or about an inch (http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/A/attoparsec.html).
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#14 Posted : 21 August 2016 12:25:43(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
The dining coach is much wider then the other coaches. I know the proportions are wrong and I notice this when I see the "fat" diner between the "slim" coaches.
The diner is wider in real life, but the proportions are wrong.

I have the same set. The dining coach is around 34 mm wide, which corresponds fairly to the prototype that is around 3100 mm wide.

The standard UIC coach is 2825 mm wide giving us a model that should be around 32 mm wide. The Märklin coach is 30 mm wide (or almost an attoparsec wink). This makes the difference 2 mm or 0.08 inches. Given the some what true to width dining coach the difference is noticeable because 1 mm is missing on each side if you look for it. My experience though is that nobody ever really does. I had never thought of it before you mentioned it.

Compromises all the time. No body ever questions the width of the sleepers on the C-track. Those too are actually 2 mm too short. Smile
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
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Offline NS1200  
#15 Posted : 21 August 2016 13:39:22(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Just a quick calculation.
A standard DB coach from the seventies is having a length of 26.40 mtrs (2,640 cm)over the buffers.

A Marklin tinplate coach,for example the 4051,has a length of 24 cm over the buffers,that means scale 1/110 (2,640 divided by 24).

A Marklin plastic coach has a typical length of 27 cm over the buffers,that means scale 1/98 (2,640 divided by 27).

And indeed,proper scale length 1/87 should be 30.3 cm (2,640 divided by 87).

Once again,this is only about length and number of windows,all the rest should be fine.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 22 August 2016 08:23:22(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
You will find that tinplate coaches have less windows than the longer plastic coaches.
There you have the compromise in length.
The 27 cm Aüm/Büm have the same number of compartments as the older 24 cm coaches, the correct number of compartments came with the 282 mm coaches.
Look at the ratio between windows and the walls between the windows and you find that every compromised coach has it's own compromise.
This works best for the 24 cm coaches (20 % length are missing, about 20 % of the compartments are missing). On the 27 cm coaches some walls are much wider than they should be.

A picture from the thread linked in post #2.
UserPostedImage
IMHO the windows look too wide on the 27 cm coach and too narrow on the 282 mm coach (24 cm on top, 303 mm at the bottom).
The 24 cm coach has toilet windows that are too wide.

The coaches have different types of doors, so ignore the different widths of door windows.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline H0  
#17 Posted : 22 August 2016 08:27:19(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
No body ever questions the width of the sleepers on the C-track. Those too are actually 2 mm too short. Smile
Many people write that they would never ever buy C track because the sleepers are too short.

H0 scale requires many compromises - some can be avoided (at a cost), some cannot be avoided. Every customer chooses his/her own set of compromises.

The slope of C track is much too steep. This is a good thing IMHO as it allows the customer to add ballast to get a better look and a correct slope.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#18 Posted : 22 August 2016 09:12:03(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Many people write that they would never ever buy C track because the sleepers are too short.

Tom, I attend a lot of forums, I almost never see this written as much as comments about the coach lengths. It is my understanding that the majority of customers are unaware of this fact. Yes, some do not like it, but "many" as in "I see this all the time" is hardly correct. Smile
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
Offline NS1200  
#19 Posted : 22 August 2016 14:18:55(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Whilst following the exchange of thoughts on the length of Marklin coaches in scale 1/87,which is interesting enough,i checked on the track radia maintained by our national railways NS.
A radius of minimal 190 mtrs is required for speeds upto 40 km/h,this equals 2.18 mtrs in scale 1/87.
A radius of minimal 400 mtrs is required for higher speeds,this equals 4.60 mtrs in scale 1/87.
The sharpest curve in the Intercity network is at Harderwijk,with a maximum servicespeed of 110 km/h.

I was raised in a time where you were glad to leave the starterset R1 track behind and use the "wide" curves of Marklin R2 instead.......
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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Offline Minok  
#20 Posted : 22 August 2016 23:13:02(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: Collector Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

The Roco RAm has full length and the powered car looks very impressive - longer than most other locomotives.
With the Märklin RAm each coach is too short by about an attoparsec and the powered car only has the length of many other uncompromised locos.
Thus things that are special in real life look ordinary as a compromised model.


I actually have the Marklin variety of that one together with some extra caches but I dont recall ever having run the the thing on my layout when I still had one.

What is an attoparsec? (a google search did not help)


atto is a metric prefix (like milli, kilo, centi) and is 10^-18: centi, deci, milli, micro, nano, pico, femto, atto. It is a really really small portion of something....

Parsec, on the other hand, is an length measurement - on astronomical scale. So you talk about parsecs when discussing interstellar distances. Specifically a parsec is defined as: One parsec is the distance at which one astronomical unit subtends an angle of one arcsecond. An astronomical unit is the distance from Earth to Sun. A parsec is about 3.2 light-years.

Applying that very tiny portion to a very large areas... gets you the attoparsec.

3.08567758149137×10^16 meters (the parsec) * 10^-18 (the atto scale) = 3.08x10^-2 meters or about 3.08 centi-meters.

IE someone was being a bit silly ;-)


PS for the Star Wars fan you will recall Han Solo's bold claim he made the Kessel Run in under 12 parsecs... as in, he was able to get from A to B in less than usual distance. One assumes the distance would be a straight line to begin with (that the Kessel Run is 12 parsecs long) and this is somewhat odd.. but then in a universe with hyperdrive, bending space-time isn't unusual. But on a model train layout an attoparsec is always 3.08cm, even on Han Solo's Märklin layout.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline Minok  
#21 Posted : 22 August 2016 23:23:24(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: Collector Go to Quoted Post
Hi All,

I noticed that for some reason the passenger cars seem to often not be in scale 1:87 but in 1:100 or 1:93 instead.

Some questions:

-Why is this? Seems strange give H0 is supposed to be 1:87

Mike


Mike, others have given detailed answers so this is somewhat redundant, but...

The idea is the general sale of the car is 1:87 (so that it looks properly sized with respect to other HO / 1:87 stuff like the locomotives, tracks, scenery, houses, cars, people, etc. The lengths of the cars, however are scaled down further (1:100 is common for example) to reduce the length of the cars for operational concerns (going around a tight R2 curve, for example, a longer car will cut-the-corner more); as a side effect the trains will be a bit shorter (I can get by with a slightly shorter railway platform; I'm not sure this is what Märklin cares about).

You'll see the Märklin descriptions contain the length scaling on items:
Capture.PNG

That way you know what your getting and can build a train/consist that looks consistent (no pun intended).

I'm running a train with 4 cars - so a 5-segment train, just to be able to not have to build very long platforms and being able to get more stations into my layout, so I'm already compromising down from the more proto-typical 7 cars + loco reality of what I'm modeling. I've got no problems with the shorter wagons... so long as it all works together and doesn't look odd.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
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My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline mike c  
#22 Posted : 23 August 2016 05:54:29(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: Collector Go to Quoted Post
Hi All,

I noticed that for some reason the passenger cars seem to often not be in scale 1:87 but in 1:100 or 1:93 instead.

Some questions:

-Why is this? Seems strange give H0 is supposed to be 1:87

-Are the cars just too short or is the width and height also compromised?

-Is this with the case with all long passenger cars from Marklin?

-Does anyone else build passenger cars in true 1:87

If a prototype is 26.4m (??) you would expect the models to be 30.3cm but I have not seen a single one in the catalog which is that size Confused


Regards,

Mike


Hi Mike:

I think that the first assumption that people make is that a model is fully rendered in a given scale.
Some models, eg Roco's Exact Scale or LSM, ACME, etc have all aspects rendered in 1/87.

Other models have compromised scale, which means that although the model is rendered for use on HO, it has some variances. Most frequently, this is seen in terms of scale length. The width and height are still rendered in 1/87 so that the coach/car is not too narrow or too short.
Maerklin decided to produce it's newest long coaches in the scale of 1/93.5. However, due to the fact that this is the longest length that can safely use their R1 curves with catenary, turnout lanters and signals, they also render longer coaches (e.g. restaurant cars) to the same length as the others, so some have taken to describing the Maerklin scale length as 282mm. In order to facilitate the operation on tighter radii, Maerklin has also compromised the bogie reproduction, rendering the bogies with an off centre pivot, which reduces the overhang of the coaches.

Maerklin's decision to model prototypes less than 25m in exact scale and those over that length in reduced scale length can make for complicated modelling. For example, the DB or FS (UIC-X) coaches are 1/93.5, but the SBB lightsteel coaches are 1/87. I now have the new 43874 SBB diner which is also 1/93.5, so that helps, but there are no other SBB coaches in that scale for Era III/Early Era IV.

I use a second such diner car with my SBB and FS Eurofima consist, which is all 1:93.5.

The exact scale length Lightsteel cars can be combined with Lima, Roco and other SBB passenger coaches (EWI/EWII) which is cool. Unfortunately the Maerklin models of those coaches have some rendering errors which some Swiss train fans find irritating.

I have the 1980s Roco models of the SBB EWIV in 1/93. They have a length of 284mm. I tried to combine them with the new Maerklin coaches, but the Roco coaches are a little wider than the Maerklin ones. I am not sure who has the correct scale width.

What irks me is that in addition to reducing the scale length as a compromise, Maerklin (and other companies) also have to reduce the scale of other details, like windows and doors, in order to fit the correct number of compartments into the reduced length. In more than a few instances, the company's designers rendered the whole window (width and height) instead of just the width, resulting in a less than pleasing appearance, where the windows are either sitting too high or too low depending on the model. Some paint jobs, e.g. TEE red and beige or DB blue and beige make the placement of the windows stick out like a sore thumb.

Too low (42991 Bar coach): http://assets.catawiki.n...e5-8025-552e5e7655a6.jpg
or: http://www.lokshow.de/sp...nwagen/bilder/42991d.jpg
Too high (26557 Restaurant): https://www.marklin-user...ls/mike%20c/DSC02695.JPG

Regards

Mike C


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Offline NS1200  
#23 Posted : 23 August 2016 07:54:04(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
No matter what,i still think the Marklin tinplate coaches with length of 24 cm are perfect.
They enable you to create a realistic train with the various different coaches,which can run on a limited surface.
I recently bought some M plastic coaches with length 27 cm,and,yeah,plastic will always be plastic.

And,yes,i know,i am a tinplate freak...........

In the 1988 Primex (made by Marklin) catalogue there was a layout with trackplan for 4 trains and a sideline going to a turntable and coaldepot.
In this design,almost all R1 and R2 radia have been hidden by "mountains" on both sides,so that express trains are moving along straight lines,at least at the front of the layout.
This design would have been boring but the sideline winding its way up to the depot is distracting our attention to that,clever!

I consider it well possible to run longer coaches on such a layout,their funny moves in corners will not be seen anyway.

Paul.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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Offline Collector  
#24 Posted : 23 August 2016 18:55:02(UTC)
Collector


Joined: 17/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 147
Location: Europe
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post

You'll see the Märklin descriptions contain the length scaling on items:
Capture.PNG

That way you know what your getting and can build a train/consist that looks consistent (no pun intended).

I'm running a train with 4 cars - so a 5-segment train, just to be able to not have to build very long platforms and being able to get more stations into my layout, so I'm already compromising down from the more proto-typical 7 cars + loco reality of what I'm modeling. I've got no problems with the shorter wagons... so long as it all works together and doesn't look odd.


That thing I saw on their site and then I did not see it everywhere and in some cases it still said 1:87 and then elsewhere on the same page it had that picture with 1:93.5 and I started wondering if they simply were not consistent in mentioning this for each product or if they were inconsistent in that some wagons are truly 1:87 and others are not. Funny thing is I have (I guess) about a dozen 24 cm tin plate cars and all those years I never thought about them not being to scale...

If 7 cars is prototypical then what length of layout do we need to give a "natural" appearance???
DRG/DB/SBB Epoche II/III/IV
Offline Collector  
#25 Posted : 23 August 2016 19:10:18(UTC)
Collector


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Posts: 147
Location: Europe

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the extensive reply.

Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post



Maerklin's decision to model prototypes less than 25m in exact scale and those over that length in reduced scale length can make for complicated modelling. For example, the DB or FS (UIC-X) coaches are 1/93.5, but the SBB lightsteel coaches are 1/87. I now have the new 43874 SBB diner which is also 1/93.5, so that helps, but there are no other SBB coaches in that scale for Era III/Early Era IV.

I use a second such diner car with my SBB and FS Eurofima consist, which is all 1:93.5.

The exact scale length Lightsteel cars can be combined with Lima, Roco and other SBB passenger coaches (EWI/EWII) which is cool. Unfortunately the Maerklin models of those coaches have some rendering errors which some Swiss train fans find irritating.

I have the 1980s Roco models of the SBB EWIV in 1/93. They have a length of 284mm. I tried to combine them with the new Maerklin coaches, but the Roco coaches are a little wider than the Maerklin ones. I am not sure who has the correct scale width.

What irks me is that in addition to reducing the scale length as a compromise, Maerklin (and other companies) also have to reduce the scale of other details, like windows and doors, in order to fit the correct number of compartments into the reduced length. In more than a few instances, the company's designers rendered the whole window (width and height) instead of just the width, resulting in a less than pleasing appearance, where the windows are either sitting too high or too low depending on the model. Some paint jobs, e.g. TEE red and beige or DB blue and beige make the placement of the windows stick out like a sore thumb.

Too low (42991 Bar coach): http://assets.catawiki.n...e5-8025-552e5e7655a6.jpg
or: http://www.lokshow.de/sp...nwagen/bilder/42991d.jpg
Too high (26557 Restaurant): https://www.marklin-user...ls/mike%20c/DSC02695.JPG

Regards

Mike C





I must be bad at the spot the difference game! I looked at the pictures and simply did not see it....

You have a very nice train in your avatar! When I get back into this it will be on my list of trains to get. Always liked the TEE colours and also like those Swiss locos.

That beige and DB blue Rheingold from the sixties will also be on the list.

Was not planning on using any tight curves to that should not be an issue.

Does Marklin not have any SBB coaches in the catalog from area III and IV or did I not read enough catalogs yet?


When I am next in Germany early next year, I guess I need to plan in a day to visit some shops to get a feel of what the other makes are producing wagon wise and make up my mind if I stick with Marklin and accept the scale compromise or if I decide to go with true scale stuff.
DRG/DB/SBB Epoche II/III/IV
Offline Collector  
#26 Posted : 23 August 2016 19:12:09(UTC)
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Location: Europe
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
No matter what,i still think the Marklin tinplate coaches with length of 24 cm are perfect.
They enable you to create a realistic train with the various different coaches,which can run on a limited surface.
I recently bought some M plastic coaches with length 27 cm,and,yeah,plastic will always be plastic.

And,yes,i know,i am a tinplate freak...........

In the 1988 Primex (made by Marklin) catalogue there was a layout with trackplan for 4 trains and a sideline going to a turntable and coaldepot.
In this design,almost all R1 and R2 radia have been hidden by "mountains" on both sides,so that express trains are moving along straight lines,at least at the front of the layout.
This design would have been boring but the sideline winding its way up to the depot is distracting our attention to that,clever!

I consider it well possible to run longer coaches on such a layout,their funny moves in corners will not be seen anyway.

Paul.


I had also been thinking to hide the majority of the curves in tunnels.....
DRG/DB/SBB Epoche II/III/IV
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Offline NS1200  
#27 Posted : 23 August 2016 20:44:49(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Collector,herewith an impression of the Primex railplan referred to.
The Primex metal track were identical to the Marklin metal track,albeit color was white and not brown.
Of course the same layout can be build with C track.

Interesting layout,it has a big station which can hold 4 trains,it has a winding track going to a depot with turntable,on the left hand side there is a "mountain",and all sharp curves in the foreground are hidden in tunnels.

http://web.archive.org/w...gleisplan/primex1988.htm
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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Offline RayF  
#28 Posted : 23 August 2016 21:47:17(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Nice plan!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Collector  
#29 Posted : 23 August 2016 22:49:21(UTC)
Collector


Joined: 17/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 147
Location: Europe
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Collector,herewith an impression of the Primex railplan referred to.
The Primex metal track were identical to the Marklin metal track,albeit color was white and not brown.
Of course the same layout can be build with C track.

Interesting layout,it has a big station which can hold 4 trains,it has a winding track going to a depot with turntable,on the left hand side there is a "mountain",and all sharp curves in the foreground are hidden in tunnels.

http://web.archive.org/w...gleisplan/primex1988.htm


Looks nice actually especially given that it looks pretty small indeed.
DRG/DB/SBB Epoche II/III/IV
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#30 Posted : 24 August 2016 00:10:24(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post

atto is a metric prefix (like milli, kilo, centi) and is 10^-18: centi, deci, milli, micro, nano, pico, femto, atto. It is a really really small portion of something....

Parsec, on the other hand, is an length measurement - on astronomical scale. So you talk about parsecs when discussing interstellar distances. Specifically a parsec is defined as: One parsec is the distance at which one astronomical unit subtends an angle of one arcsecond. An astronomical unit is the distance from Earth to Sun. A parsec is about 3.2 light-years.

Applying that very tiny portion to a very large areas... gets you the attoparsec.

3.08567758149137×10^16 meters (the parsec) * 10^-18 (the atto scale) = 3.08x10^-2 meters or about 3.08 centi-meters.

IE someone was being a bit silly ;-)


Reminds me of an article in a Hewlett Packard Journal where they gave the area of a microprocessor chip they built in nanoacres.

Offline NS1200  
#31 Posted : 24 August 2016 07:50:15(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Originally Posted by: Collector Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Collector,herewith an impression of the Primex railplan referred to.
The Primex metal track were identical to the Marklin metal track,albeit color was white and not brown.
Of course the same layout can be build with C track.

Interesting layout,it has a big station which can hold 4 trains,it has a winding track going to a depot with turntable,on the left hand side there is a "mountain",and all sharp curves in the foreground are hidden in tunnels.

http://web.archive.org/w...gleisplan/primex1988.htm


Looks nice actually especially given that it looks pretty small indeed.


At the bottom of the following link you can see the trackplan.
Size of the layout is 400 x 115 cm (4.00 x 1.15 mtrs).
Click the picture to enlarge.
Color red is radius 1,color yellow is radius 2.
The sideline has a hidden endstation at the foreground.
On the picture the turntable has one more track over the right hand side tunnel,a shunter can be seen parked there.
The sideline can be operated separated from the mainline,for example to run a railbus back and forth.

http://en.3d-modellbahn.de/forum/thema/4654
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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Offline H0  
#32 Posted : 24 August 2016 08:41:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Collector Go to Quoted Post
That thing I saw on their site and then I did not see it everywhere and in some cases it still said 1:87 and then elsewhere on the same page it had that picture with 1:93.5 and I started wondering if they simply were not consistent in mentioning this for each product or if they were inconsistent in that some wagons are truly 1:87 and others are not.
With Märklin this is quite simple.

Let's take #43308 as an example.
On the top of the product description it says "Design type 1:87". This applies to the tracks and the height of the car.
Further down the page it reads "1:93,5" - this means nothing as the length of the coach is 1:97.5. I don't know which scale applies to the width of the car.

The Märklin engineers can give you the scales for any dimension and any part with two decimal digits. They published some figures for the ICE 3, thus revealing that not much of it is really 1:87 (but earlier catalogues advertised 1:87).
The Märklin marketing department simplifies the numbers shown in the catalogue, rendering them completely useless because some numbers were generously rounded while other numbers are simply typos.


Roco don't show more care when making catalogues. Their 316 mm dining coaches are often advertised as 303 mm in the catalogue. So you don't get the advertised length, but you get 1:87 in length.


With all those inaccurate information in the catalogues, things can be confusing - not just for new customers.

Before building a layout, decide whether you want to use long coaches (316 mm and such) and either place signal and catanary masts accordingly -or restrict yourself to 282 mm coaches to avoid problems with masts close to the track on the inside of curves.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline jerdenberg  
#33 Posted : 24 August 2016 10:55:29(UTC)
jerdenberg

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/01/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,011
Location: Den Helder, Noord-Holland
A long time ago, I posted pictures of true-to-scale Walthers Union Pacific coaches on different radii. I think that illustrates a "perception" issue to take into account.

Here is the one on R3 …:
UserPostedImage

Those for R4 and R5 are in the old post.

Jeroen
Figomima division, UP; mostly figment of my imagination yet.
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Offline Collector  
#34 Posted : 25 August 2016 03:35:45(UTC)
Collector


Joined: 17/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 147
Location: Europe
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

The Märklin marketing department simplifies the numbers shown in the catalogue, rendering them completely useless because some numbers were generously rounded while other numbers are simply typos.


Roco don't show more care when making catalogues. Their 316 mm dining coaches are often advertised as 303 mm in the catalogue. So you don't get the advertised length, but you get 1:87 in length.


With all those inaccurate information in the catalogues, things can be confusing - not just for new customers.

Before building a layout, decide whether you want to use long coaches (316 mm and such) and either place signal and catanary masts accordingly -or restrict yourself to 282 mm coaches to avoid problems with masts close to the track on the inside of curves.


Thanks, I kind of suspected that their info would be inconsistent and not too accurate.

Will be going for the larger radii only so that should give me some flexibility.
DRG/DB/SBB Epoche II/III/IV
Offline Collector  
#35 Posted : 25 August 2016 03:47:16(UTC)
Collector


Joined: 17/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 147
Location: Europe
Originally Posted by: jerdenberg Go to Quoted Post
A long time ago, I posted pictures of true-to-scale Walthers Union Pacific coaches on different radii. I think that illustrates a "perception" issue to take into account.

Here is the one on R3 …:
UserPostedImage

Those for R4 and R5 are in the old post.

Jeroen



Jeroen,

Thanks that visualizes it quite nicely!
DRG/DB/SBB Epoche II/III/IV
Offline H0  
#36 Posted : 25 August 2016 08:12:55(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Here's a picture that shows how two 303 mm coaches look like, passing from one track to another on R2 turnouts:
UserPostedImage

And here how it looks like with the much shorter 270 mm Märklin coaches:
UserPostedImage

Pictures were taken from this thread (there are more pictures in it):
https://www.marklin-user...-does-it-look#post378558


I sometimes read that shorter coaches would look better on curves than longer coaches.
There is not much difference when it comes to the gap between coaches.
Surely longer coaches require more free space on the inside of the curve. And when watching from the outside of the curve, you see more track with longer coaches than with shorter coaches.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Harryv40  
#37 Posted : 25 August 2016 23:29:45(UTC)
Harryv40

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 242
Location: Wilshire
Hi Everyone
I have limited space for my layout and I have chosen to buy a Noch Layout Board 2m X 1m and of course the plan requires a number of rad 1 curves.
I tried to run a set of Roco coaches and found they destroyed everything on the curves because they were 1/87th scale. However, the Marklin coaches being that bit smaller run the rad 1 curves without any issues.

The point I am trying to make is that model railways are a compromise like life, you run locos and coaches from the country and era you like in the best possible way, yes all coaches look C*** on curves whatever scale, 1/87,1/93 or 1/100.

We try our best to run our stock in a way that please us and accept its never going to be prefect.

Harry over and out
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Offline H0  
#38 Posted : 26 August 2016 07:58:08(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Harryv40 Go to Quoted Post
The point I am trying to make is that model railways are a compromise like life, [...]
The vast majority of Roco coaches runs on R1 if the layout has sufficient clearance left and right.

If you want long scale models, build a layout with suitable clearance left and right.
Or run shorter coaches that suit the clearance of your layout.

Do not blame Roco for making scale models if your layout has extremely small radii with insufficient clearance. Scale models from Märklin will have the same problems.
Shortened models from Roco, Piko, and Fleischmann should work as well as shortened Märklin models.

A small Noch layout with short platforms might be a good candidate for Donnerbüchsen and Umbauwägen. Märklin make them in 1:87.

The builder of a layout has to make some compromises - but can make some choices. Decide for or against 316 mm coaches before you start building a layout. That's my point.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Harryv40  
#39 Posted : 27 August 2016 00:29:03(UTC)
Harryv40

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 242
Location: Wilshire
Hi Tom
I am not blaming Roco, I have a number of Roco locos, wagon etc, the point I am trying to make is that the world is a compromise. If I had a large layout with rad 2,3,4 curves, I would buy Ho scale coaches like Roco. But I don't and until I run Roco coaches on my layout I did not realise the difference between the various suppliers.

Harry
Offline Tdl  
#40 Posted : 28 August 2016 11:50:19(UTC)
Tdl

Netherlands   
Joined: 30/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 71
Location: Amsterdam
Vehicles to scale: apply easement curves

All,

in my opinion vehicles of different scales in one model train does not look good. Hence I avoid this.
As most model engines are to scale, I only have cars that are to scale. One can have almost any car to scale. However märklin does not offer many passenger cars that are to scale.

A home layout often cannot be made without small radius curves.
The offset between the ends of cars on small radius curves will be greatly reduced when one applies easement curves.
Flex rail can be laid according a spiral or klothoid.
With industry track one can achieve an easement curve by starting a curve with a track element with a large radius followed by one with a smaller radius and so on. Example: straight – R6 – R5 – R4 … R4 – R5 – R6 –straight.

For better looks of your model train also avoid laying S curves. Always have a straight piece of track in between.

Regards, Willem
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