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Offline ShannonN  
#1 Posted : 23 August 2016 02:54:23(UTC)
ShannonN

Australia   
Joined: 14/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 492
Location: Maryborough, Qld
I have looked through the forum briefly and can't quite see definitive answers so I hope these are not answered in other threads years ago where I haven't searched

As my trains are now in transit to me and should arrive in a few days I've begun to rethink my layout size and will build on a std 4'x 8' HO layout. While I have enough track and trains to make a few sidings and track to warehouse entrances.

Reading many threads, YouTube based "build your layout" type videos, I'm seeing references to running buss wires and feeder wires to maintain current across your layout.

I will have 4 separate power sources and connectors available (4 electric locos @1 psu / track connector each) I am thinking if I place each psu at 4 different track positions I should have more than enough power to service whole layout? I have no powered accessories such as auto switches, lighting et al at this stage.

This however raises the question, is this overkill for 4 trains running at once on the same track sections before one or more trains branches to inner circle of track/sidings etc? Is there a danger of over-voltage.

Can I, without buying a separate CS2/3 master control unit somehow operate the whole layout from just one remote controller?

Thanks in advance for your advice
Shanny
Offline PMPeter  
#2 Posted : 23 August 2016 04:13:55(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Are you really using DCC or are you using Marklin digital protocol? It is confusing when you say you have 4 power sources since this seems to imply analog transformers. Perhaps you can clarify what controller you are using.

The whole bus wiring scenario was discussed in a thread on this forum about 2-3 weeks ago. I'll see if I can find the link.

Cheers
Peter
Offline PMPeter  
#3 Posted : 23 August 2016 04:23:24(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Here are links for the recent topics on bus wiring:

Bus wiring

Recent topic
Offline ShannonN  
#4 Posted : 23 August 2016 06:09:54(UTC)
ShannonN

Australia   
Joined: 14/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 492
Location: Maryborough, Qld
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
Are you really using DCC or are you using Marklin digital protocol? It is confusing when you say you have 4 power sources since this seems to imply analog transformers. Perhaps you can clarify what controller you are using.

The whole bus wiring scenario was discussed in a thread on this forum about 2-3 weeks ago. I'll see if I can find the link.

Cheers
Peter

Hi Peter
These are the electric trains I purchased

Bought 2 steam era loco starter sets, Märklin 29163 Starter Set "My with Märklin" Loco BR 89

Product description:
Track: H0 Era: III
Prototype: Tender locomotive 89.3 of the German Federal Railroad (DB). Open Freight Car El-u 061 German Federal Railroad (DB) and a private refrigerator car Ichus u- 377 (used on the DB).

Model: The locomotive has a digital decoder. 1 axle powered traction tires. Coupling hooks. 1 gondola and 1 refrigerated vehicles, each with Relex couplers. Train length 33,8 cm. Contents: 12 curved track 20130 , tracks 2 straight 20172 , 1 straight track 20188 , 1 base station, 1 switching power supply 230 V / 36 VA and a wireless infrared controller.


Bought 2 Diesel Starter kits , Märklin 29752 Starter set Fire Brigade with diesel locomotive Henschel 500
Product description:

Track: H0

Prototype: Fictional firefighters locomotive based on an electric locomotive type Henschel EA 500 ​​. Low side car for transporting a fire engine ladder Rungenwagen with operations center and a tank wagon "fire water" of the DB Emergency Technology.

Model: The locomotive has a digital decoder and a special motor. 1 axle powered. Traction tires. Ride The triple headlights will work in conventional operation can be controlled digitally. Low Side Car with removable ladder model of metal. Carton Bastelbogen "command center" for loading the stake car. Tank wagon with brakeman's platform. All of the cars have Relex couplers. Train length 45,5 cm. Contents: 12 curved tracks 24130 , 4 straight tracks 24188 , 1 base station, 7 straight tracks 24172 , 2 curved tracks 24224 , 1 Right Turnout 24612 and 1 Weiche links 24611 . Switching power supply and a wireless infrared controller

Does NOT say **Digital Ready** says **HAS** digital decoder, my understanding is if it has a digital decoder its a DCC loco and NOT analogue

Perhaps I'm a dumb ass in a sea of experts familiar with Marklin train speak, Huh but . . . I'll never learn unless I ask

Thanks for the link
Blessings Shanny



Offline PMPeter  
#5 Posted : 23 August 2016 07:50:11(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Hi Shanny,

DCC refers to a digital protocol that is not Marklin's. I think when you state DCC you mean "digital". Marklin generally uses Motorola, Delta, mfx, or mfx+ digital protocols. Therefore, what you have bought is digital with one of these protocols.

Since I am not familiar with the infrared controllers, I will let someone else answer or advise how you can use those on one layout, but I am assuming you can only use one unless there is some form of master/slave setup available or you don't connect all of your track together and have separate circuits for each infrared controller.

Peter
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Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 23 August 2016 08:25:41(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Shanny!
Originally Posted by: ShannonN Go to Quoted Post
Is there a danger of over-voltage.
You have four tracks with built-in digital controllers ("ugly box" in forum speak).
Connect the outputs of two such boxes and you'll let the smoke out.

And even worse: these simple starter set boxes are probably too weak to run four locos at the same time.

The good news: you can use multiple IR senders with one such ugly box.

The voltage drop grows proportionally with the current, so this is less of an issue with small locos.
I mean it is a really bad idea to test a layout with your small shunters if you intend to get big trains later.

But if you just plug the tracks together to get first experience, don't worry too much about feeder tracks and see how many trains you can run at any time with your controllers.

An MS2 should have enough power for four such small trains. If you get one, you will have to leave all four ugly boxes in the box.

A CS2/3 has even more power and 2 throttles (and you can use MS2 as additional throttles), but comes at a cost.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline ShannonN  
#7 Posted : 23 August 2016 09:40:27(UTC)
ShannonN

Australia   
Joined: 14/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 492
Location: Maryborough, Qld
Peter & Tom
Thanks for the definitions & advice. For the immediate future <->12 months, I'll just be using the small starter set locos till I save the "big money" to move up a notch :)

I'll probably set up a 2nd 4 x 6 layout with a different theme as well so will really only be running at max 2 small starter sets on each layout at a time, I'll use the battery powered ice type trains to supplement the visual aspect of the layout and will get some cheap rolling stock to fill sidings, static sheds etc.

Looking at the sales pitch for the infra red controllers its seems to suggest you can control up 4 trains from 1 unit, but what it can do in reality may be different.

So to review.
"Don't hook more than 1 ugly box to layout, test to see just what the 1 box will allow to be powered and I take it I do NOT need to to do any buss type wiring and feeders until I get the recommended different controller(s)"?

Arrgh! and I thought going digital was going to be the easy way LOL

Blessings Shanny



Offline Harryv40  
#8 Posted : 23 August 2016 10:36:31(UTC)
Harryv40

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 242
Location: Wilshire
Hi Shanny
Welcome to the forum.
I am also fairly new to the forum, about a year, and Marklin having been into N Gauge and lost heart some years ago.
In terms of your layout size and if you use C track I would not worry about bus wiring, all Marklin track is live unless to install isolated sections.

I would look to buy a Marklin mobile station 2, the black one have the most up to date software, along with possibly a Marklin transformer. The Marklin set 29000, will give you all you need and includes some additional track.
A mobile station will allow you to create a loco list of 10 engines, and should allow you to run up to four locos at a time.

I hope you enjoy your new hobby, one bit of advice, look at what country or era you would like to model, don't do what I did and spend all you funds on everything you see and then find you changed your mind.

regards
Harry
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Offline ShannonN  
#9 Posted : 23 August 2016 16:34:47(UTC)
ShannonN

Australia   
Joined: 14/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 492
Location: Maryborough, Qld
Originally Posted by: Harryv40 Go to Quoted Post
Hi Shanny
Welcome to the forum.


I would look to buy a Marklin mobile station 2, the black one have the most up to date software, along with possibly a Marklin transformer. The Marklin set 29000, will give you all you need and includes some additional track.

A mobile station will allow you to create a loco list of 10 engines, and should allow you to run up to four locos at a time.

I hope you enjoy your new hobby, one bit of advice, look at what country or era you would like to model, don't do what I did and spend all you funds on everything you see and then find you changed your mind.

regards
Harry


Hi Harry
I wish I had enough money to buy all I liked , I'm trying to make my own buildings and scenery to save money (I'm a Pensioner) as for era whether Steam or Diesel, I'm trying to avoid preferences and am going to alter my steam and diesel locos to a more rugged look as I'm modelling a Lunar and or Martian look. Just to be different from the everyone has a green field or town scene look :)

I have photo shopped a B0 size lunar landscape from a looking down at your ankles perspective and hope to get a few printed out then glue on layout board much like a layout map to save a lot of plaster or cement dust getting everywhere (including my lungs) while trying to get a moon surface look.

Figure some card stock slip over modelling can reshape the locos I have into something acceptable

Sorry thinking out aloud, time for bed Night all
Blessings Shanny

Offline Harryv40  
#10 Posted : 23 August 2016 20:41:00(UTC)
Harryv40

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 242
Location: Wilshire
Hello Shanny
Sorry if I got carried away. I am also a pensioner, I try and look out for bargains as I go along and try to spend my money carefully. My other half keeps as eye on the pur strings and keep spending with in my budget.

Regards

Harry
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Offline Harryv40  
#11 Posted : 23 August 2016 20:50:05(UTC)
Harryv40

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 242
Location: Wilshire
Shanny
I use to make my own scenery and enjoyed it. I used to visit my local burger bars and pick up wooden coffee stirrers and polystyrene blocks from packing boxes. These will let you build your mountains, hill, tunnels and scenery. Them som cheap wall filler for putting on top of the the mountain etc. Also try mixing in some paints of the colour you need the landscape.


Hope this will get you started.

Regards
Harry
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Offline ShannonN  
#12 Posted : 23 August 2016 22:34:02(UTC)
ShannonN

Australia   
Joined: 14/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 492
Location: Maryborough, Qld
Originally Posted by: Harryv40 Go to Quoted Post
Shanny
I use to make my own scenery and enjoyed it. I used to visit my local burger bars and pick up wooden coffee stirrers and polystyrene blocks from packing boxes. These will let you build your mountains, hill, tunnels and scenery. Them som cheap wall filler for putting on top of the the mountain etc. Also try mixing in some paints of the colour you need the landscape.


Hope this will get you started.

Regards
Harry



I've been really lucky as I have some major white good sellers in my area so the storeman keeps lots of those big thick washing machine & fridge cartons for me and all the big moulded poly packing.

The fridge cartons are huge when opened out so ideal for covering bench-top layout and having a side panel that you can flip up against wall like a splash-back to put background posters against.

I've discovered a 2lt plastic pepsi bottle with ends cut of and cut into 2 halves is a perfect size for imitating LPG or Fuel storage tanks (upright), once painted off gray. inner cardboard tubing from cling wrap or foil dispensers when run out are great for smaller upright cement storage tanks et al

Yes I agree scratch modelling is a step in the right direction and saves money. ATM I'm using some paper art buildings to do a train shed and roundhouse.

I'll stop babbling now before I get excited . Passion in your hobby can be overwhelming sometimes.

Blessings Shanny
Offline kiwiAlan  
#13 Posted : 24 August 2016 00:02:39(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: ShannonN Go to Quoted Post

Does NOT say **Digital Ready** says **HAS** digital decoder, my understanding is if it has a digital decoder its a DCC loco and NOT analogue

Perhaps I'm a dumb ass in a sea of experts familiar with Marklin train speak, Huh but . . . I'll never learn unless I ask

Thanks for the link
Blessings Shanny


Others have already pointed out that Marklin digital is not DCC, but I will give a bit of a list of alternatives.

DCC (derived from Digital Command and Control) is a registered trademark I believe, or may be just copyright, of the NRMA (National Model Railroad Association, a USA based association that has set up a number of standards for model railroad items, and DCC is one of their standards). Hence when a person refers to DCC it is taken as read that they are referring to a control system compatible with this.

However there are also a number of other systems that also give digital control of a model railroad,. One is known as Marklin Motorola which was originally based around a set of chips made by the Motorola Semiconductor company in the USA, that were designed for things like garage door remotes and such like. in the early 1980s Marklin devised a system whereby they could use this protocol as a digital control system for their products, and while the loco decoder used a custom chip, the accessory decoders for points and signals used the Motorola chip in them. The original 6020 digital controller also uses a Motorola chip to encode the signal.

After a couple of years Marklin found they needed more facilities than the Motorola system could provide, so they modified the protocol using some redundant features, and this became known as 'MM2' or Marklin Motorola 2. The loco decoders are backwards compatible with the original 6020 control unit, but the only function available is to turn the headlight off and on. The 6021 controller can use all the additional 4 functions available in the MM2 protocol.

Around 10 or so years ago Marklin introduced a totally new system called mfx which has the capability for 16 functions on the loco, but had the totally new feature of having a bi-directional protocol so the loco could tell control unit just what functions it has, and so no setting up of address or any other feature of the loco is required. This new protocol required new control units, and Marklin introduced two, one called a mobile station and the other called a central station. The mobile station is an entry level control unit with only 8 functions controllable, that could be included in start sets, while the central station is the fully fledged control unit that can be expanded in functionality. Marklin also did a cunning hting in designed the mobile station so it could be plugged into a central station to be used as an extra throttle control, meaning that a person starting out with a mobile station did not need to get rid of it when expanding the layout control with a central station, but could still make use of the mobile station. The original mobile station and central station are now known as ms1 and cs1 respectively, as newer and more capable models of both were introduced about two years after the introduction of the ms1 and cs1. All the mfx controllers can also control MM and MM2 decoders, so the backwards capability is still there.

However the early days of digital control also spawned a number of other digital control systems, although most of these have almost died out. Trix had a system called Selectrix and Fleischmann had a system called FMX. There were also others from other manufacturers. You will often find that decoders can often be set up to use these other systems as well as DCC, mfx or MM2.

However as none of these other systems are compatable with DCC, they cannot use the DCC logo or nomenclature. This doesn't stop people like eBay sellers describing marklin items as DCC, even though they are not. Technically they are making an illegal statement.

The confusion over DCC is made even more confusing by many modern controllers being able to generate several of the protocols I have mentioned above, e.g. the ms2 and cs2 can both be set up to generate DCC messages as well as MM and mfx, allowing many decoders from multiple systems to still be used. many decoders such as the new Marklin ones and ESU Lokpiot and Loksound ones can also understand multiple systems including DCC. So when refitting a loco with a decoder there are a number of decisions to be made about how all the equipment is to be set up, so that things work without the decoder becoming confused about which protocol it thinks it is using. For this reason you will see mentions in various threads on this forum about 'turning off' this protocol or that protocol on the control unit or in a decoder.


Hope this helps make things a little clearer for you.


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Offline ShannonN  
#14 Posted : 24 August 2016 06:02:10(UTC)
ShannonN

Australia   
Joined: 14/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 492
Location: Maryborough, Qld
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post


Others have already pointed out that Marklin digital is not DCC, but I will give a bit of a list of alternatives.

DCC (derived from Digital Command and Control) is a registered trademark I believe, or may be just copyright, of the NRMA (National Model Railroad Association, a USA based association that has set up a number of standards for model railroad items, and DCC is one of their standards). Hence when a person refers to DCC it is taken as read that they are referring to a control system compatible with this.

However there are also a number of other systems that also give digital control of a model railroad,. One is known as Marklin Motorola which was originally based around a set of chips made by the Motorola Semiconductor company in the USA, that were designed for things like garage door remotes and such like. in the early 1980s Marklin devised a system whereby they could use this protocol as a digital control system for their products, and while the loco decoder used a custom chip, the accessory decoders for points and signals used the Motorola chip in them. The original 6020 digital controller also uses a Motorola chip to encode the signal.

After a couple of years Marklin found they needed more facilities than the Motorola system could provide, so they modified the protocol using some redundant features, and this became known as 'MM2' or Marklin Motorola 2. The loco decoders are backwards compatible with the original 6020 control unit, but the only function available is to turn the headlight off and on. The 6021 controller can use all the additional 4 functions available in the MM2 protocol.

Around 10 or so years ago Marklin introduced a totally new system called mfx which has the capability for 16 functions on the loco, but had the totally new feature of having a bi-directional protocol so the loco could tell control unit just what functions it has, and so no setting up of address or any other feature of the loco is required. This new protocol required new control units, and Marklin introduced two, one called a mobile station and the other called a central station. The mobile station is an entry level control unit with only 8 functions controllable, that could be included in start sets, while the central station is the fully fledged control unit that can be expanded in functionality. Marklin also did a cunning hting in designed the mobile station so it could be plugged into a central station to be used as an extra throttle control, meaning that a person starting out with a mobile station did not need to get rid of it when expanding the layout control with a central station, but could still make use of the mobile station. The original mobile station and central station are now known as ms1 and cs1 respectively, as newer and more capable models of both were introduced about two years after the introduction of the ms1 and cs1. All the mfx controllers can also control MM and MM2 decoders, so the backwards capability is still there.

However the early days of digital control also spawned a number of other digital control systems, although most of these have almost died out. Trix had a system called Selectrix and Fleischmann had a system called FMX. There were also others from other manufacturers. You will often find that decoders can often be set up to use these other systems as well as DCC, mfx or MM2.

However as none of these other systems are compatible with DCC, they cannot use the DCC logo or nomenclature. This doesn't stop people like eBay sellers describing marklin items as DCC, even though they are not. Technically they are making an illegal statement.

The confusion over DCC is made even more confusing by many modern controllers being able to generate several of the protocols I have mentioned above, e.g. the ms2 and cs2 can both be set up to generate DCC messages as well as MM and mfx, allowing many decoders from multiple systems to still be used. many decoders such as the new Marklin ones and ESU Lokpiot and Loksound ones can also understand multiple systems including DCC. So when refitting a loco with a decoder there are a number of decisions to be made about how all the equipment is to be set up, so that things work without the decoder becoming confused about which protocol it thinks it is using. For this reason you will see mentions in various threads on this forum about 'turning off' this protocol or that protocol on the control unit or in a decoder.


Hope this helps make things a little clearer for you.




Clears a lot of things up Alan, Thanks for that. I guess it's the common misuse of wordage that kills it for me and other noobs.
I did a search on roundhouse the other day in Google - the results showed amongst turntable sheds which is what I was after, to rolling stock carriages which I did not know are sometimes called "roundhouse" Imagine the WTF moment :)

I didn't realise that like a medical supplier, there are so many unique, technological and slang terms for huge amts of stuff I must learn.
Blessings Shanny

Offline PMPeter  
#15 Posted : 24 August 2016 16:32:08(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Roundhouse is actually a brand name for North American rolling stock kits, very similar to Athearn. Therefore, if you do an eBay search for roundhouse you will not only get the locomotive sheds, but also the Roundhouse products.

Can be confusing when you are new to the hobby.

Cheers
Peter
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