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Offline biedmatt  
#101 Posted : 09 July 2016 15:06:18(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
LOL okay, one last thought.

Jim, This is not an easy decision and it is more than just ECoS vs CS2. To get the advantages of Railcom you must also replace the loko decoders. This involves additional money and time beyond which controller to buy. I mulled this decision over for a very long time, I really had no desire to add an addition $120 to the cost of each of my Marklin MFX lokos. But then I looked at the big picture and realized the MFX re-register problem is apparently endemic and will never get sorted out. I hope I have another 30 years to live. When I balanced the years left in the hobby against the level of operating frustration, I decided to switch. Edit: Once I came to the decision, then it became clear the sooner I implement the change, the more payback I will get for my investment. As stated above, I do not regret the decision. It took me two years to complete the switch. Your milage may vary.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#102 Posted : 09 July 2016 15:16:06(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
I think we're all getting off topic here! In case anyone has forgotten, the topic is called Ecos or cs2? not Trouble with mFX..... Maybe a new topic should be started!


David, I believe this paragraph from post 89 indicates the relavence:


Matt, I'll remind you of a previous topic when pretty much the same players put forward pretty much the same arguments. Maybe that topic should have been revived.............

https://www.marklin-user...a-functional-alternative
Offline dickinsonj  
#103 Posted : 09 July 2016 16:01:35(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
LOL okay, one last thought.

Jim, This is not an easy decision and it is more than just ECoS vs CS2. To get the advantages of Railcom you must also replace the loko decoders. This involves additional money and time beyond which controller to buy. I mulled this decision over for a very long time, I really had no desire to add an addition $120 to the cost of each of my Marklin MFX lokos. But then I looked at the big picture and realized the MFX re-register problem is apparently endemic and will never get sorted out. I hope I have another 30 years to live. When I balanced the years left in the hobby against the level of operating frustration, I decided to switch. As stated above, I do not regret the decision. It took me two years to complete the switch. Your milage may vary.

Thanks Matt - your thoughts are always appreciated.

That exactly captures where I am right now. I only started to collect Marklin again 6 months ago and I would rather buy cool trains than more electronics. But I don't want to continue to invest in things that I might eventually abandon. Between the costs of the new control network and all of the new lok decoders (I only have one LokPilot right now) it would be a lot of money. I think that on an abstract level the Ecos environment is better but in reality I would have to abandon a lot of my existing hardware and for a lot of us that is a big consideration when comparing the two systems.

BTW - I totally agree on the MFX+ stuff. I have never used it, find it odd and most likely I never will. My allegiance to MFX stems from my love of Marklin products and the fact that MFX will most likely remain their protocol for a very long time.

Now we all need to be good before David loses his patience and let this thread get back to its core topic of how the two systems differ and compare. Cool
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline biedmatt  
#104 Posted : 09 July 2016 16:02:24(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
I think we're all getting off topic here! In case anyone has forgotten, the topic is called Ecos or cs2? not Trouble with mFX..... Maybe a new topic should be started!


David, I believe this paragraph from post 89 indicates the relavence:


Matt, I'll remind you of a previous topic when pretty much the same players put forward pretty much the same arguments. Maybe that topic should have been revived.............

https://www.marklin-user...a-functional-alternative


Um, David, I linked that thread in post #60 for those interested and had planned to leave it at that. I too think that thread covers what anyone may want to know about MFX registration problems. Others decided to carry on the discussion here and I answered those posts and thoughts.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline dickinsonj  
#105 Posted : 09 July 2016 16:17:59(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Maybe that topic should have been revived.............

https://www.marklin-user...a-functional-alternative
I am no doubt partly to blame. In my field we call what I am doing in Marklin world as drinking from a firehose. So I sometimes dive into excessive detail and ask questions which would more appropriately be asked elsewhere.

I think that the moderation on this forum is about the best that I have seen BTW - attentive but not heavy handed. I totally agree that linking to the most relevant thread is the best method and I will try harder to keep my posts more on topic.

Unlike this post of course - where I am doing it again! Blushing
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline river6109  
#106 Posted : 09 July 2016 17:46:20(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Matt, I'm glad I didn't buy one, as I have over 200 locos and they are not all used at the same time or for longer periods (6-12month) I can put them onto my track and no worries they register (RailComPlus) every time.

John


Hi John, This is where RailCom+ gets interesting. No matter how long a loko has sat upon the shelf, once placed on the track it is immediately ready to run. But, the neat part is if I changed the program in the loko decoder with my LokProgrammer, my ECoS recognizes the change and in a few seconds performs a re-acquire and updates any changes- name, function icons, all of it. So the ECoS controller does re-register the loko, but only when it sees a change has occured and it must update the info it had previously stored for the loko. All in the matter of a few seconds and never has it failed to re-acquire. Perhaps the ECoS does a check sum of the loko decoder program and can tell when it has or has not changed. I do not know the cause, just seen the effect. MFX apparently can't tell if the decoder has changed, so it performs a re-register anytime a loko has been away.



I've noticed this several times when I program it with Lokprogrammer and put it back onto the track it re-register, another abnormality I've found, if you don't put any information in it while you program your loco it will appear what ever decoder you have, for example a sound decoder will have sound decoder BR 64 although these sound decoders are for BR 44 as well. or if you have lokpilot you will see the generic symbol of a loco.

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#107 Posted : 10 July 2016 03:57:56(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
I think that the moderation on this forum is about the best that I have seen BTW - attentive but not heavy handed.


Which is why we often allow some freedom to let the topic deviate from the original, as a thread can be like a conversation which often ends up somewhere different from where it started.

But the forum rules are also there for a reason, which is why I posted a friendly reminder about them and I hope no one gets offended by that - there was certainly no intention to do that.

Hopefully Robert has got the answer he was looking for in opening this thread. So, I am now locking this thread.
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Offline baggio  
#108 Posted : 10 July 2016 05:01:38(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
In the previous thread on Ecos or CS2 Robert asked:

"Hello everybody.
I'm more confused then ever about digital. I was planning a analog layout and then read about the digital and thought I would rather make it digital. I would like to control engines with Marklin decoders and dcc decoders from other manufacturers. I'm not into changing the cv's or any other involved stuff. I like to have good sound and running engines. So my question is wich of the 2 systems is easier to use the CS2 or ESU 50200?? Any input is appreciated. Thanks
Robert"

Robert is apparently under the impression that these are the only two realistic choices if he wants to go digital.

However, no-one asked him why he is limiting himself to these two controllers.

If I may give Robert my two cents' worth:

Robert, have you considered an MS2 that does most of what most people need/care to do, controls both Marklin and DCC locomotives (so it can be used with 2rail US and European makes, locos) at a small fraction of the price?

I STRONGLY recommend that before you spend CAD$1,000.00 or more for a CS2, you may want to consider an MS2 for maybe CAD$250.00 or in a starter set for maybe CAD$500.00.

Ecos and CS2 are controllers for VERY advanced users who have a need or a desire for the extra features and know how to use them. Think about this before you open your wallet.

Have a good Sunday, everyone.
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#109 Posted : 10 July 2016 06:55:35(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Since Silvano has opened a new thread regarding the original topic of this thread, I have merged his post into this thread and unlocked the topic.
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Offline Goofy  
#110 Posted : 10 July 2016 08:07:52(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
TS should have stand an question about Märklins new CS3 too.
In fact does this new central station do have much more advance function and faster process to use it.
Both CS2 and Ecos 50200 are old system,so i know myself both company Märklin and the ESU will not produce anymore time when the new central station present.
Even ESU will present an new Ecos with much more advance functions soon or later.
Märklins CS2 are not producing anymore time.
It´s ended now.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Hackcell  
#111 Posted : 11 July 2016 08:54:21(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
Railcom is one of the reasons why I'll keep the ESU station and sell my CS2, however I can't use Railcom as a replacement of my viessmann 5233 detectors; it is technically feasible but it would be too expensive. Keep in mind ecosdetectors only offer 4 railcom inputs and I haven't found yet any railcom detector compatible with the ECOS 2. I was hoping the Tams RCD-8 detector was compatible, but it isn't.

Personally, I don't have any interest in mfx+. If I was looking forward to watch a computer screen to "drive" a locomotive, I would have bought MS train simulator instead of almost 2 dozen of Märklin, Brawa and MTH locos.

Also, the ECOS grants me the possibility of connecting CDE boosters, therefore I can use one single set zero speed generator and a LDT DB-4 booster to replace all braking modules. (plus a relay on each braking area).
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
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Offline Goofy  
#112 Posted : 11 July 2016 09:29:58(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
Railcom is one of the reasons why I'll keep the ESU station and sell my CS2, however I can't use Railcom as a replacement of my viessmann 5233 detectors; it is technically feasible but it would be too expensive. Keep in mind ecosdetectors only offer 4 railcom inputs and I haven't found yet any railcom detector compatible with the ECOS 2. I was hoping the Tams RCD-8 detector was compatible, but it isn't.

Personally, I don't have any interest in mfx+. If I was looking forward to watch a computer screen to "drive" a locomotive, I would have bought MS train simulator instead of almost 2 dozen of Märklin, Brawa and MTH locos.

Also, the ECOS grants me the possibility of connecting CDE boosters, therefore I can use one single set zero speed generator and a LDT DB-4 booster to replace all braking modules. (plus a relay on each braking area).


Viessmann detectors do have some problems.
ESU do it better togehter with the Ecos.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Hackcell  
#113 Posted : 11 July 2016 16:11:32(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post


Viessmann detectors do have some problems.
ESU do it better togehter with the Ecos.



So far I haven't experienced any sort of problems with my Viessmann s88 modules. Nevertheless, replacing them with Railcom detectors sounds quite tempting to me.

Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
Offline baggio  
#114 Posted : 11 July 2016 16:45:35(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
ESU do it better togehter with the Ecos.


Goofy, don't say these things in public! LOL
Offline Goofy  
#115 Posted : 11 July 2016 20:53:19(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
ESU do it better togehter with the Ecos.


Goofy, don't say these things in public! LOL


Sorry...i mean ESU detectors will work fine with the Ecos.
As Tom (H0) did verified...some digital components do have design flaws by use with the CS2 or Ecos.
That´s way it´s so important to find answers about to have digital system like CS2 or Ecos.
If you want to use ESU digital locomotives i suggest Ecos to control the trains.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline DB Fan  
#116 Posted : 12 July 2016 04:37:48(UTC)
DB Fan

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2016(UTC)
Posts: 265
Location: Colorado
Ok. I bought the Ecos due to all the great comments everybody posted here. I just bought a starter set what included the ms2 and someone mentioned that I can connect it to the Ecos. I like the ms2 but I'm still tethered to a cord what isn't long enough. Yes the Ecos is more advanced and has more functions then I'm ever going to use. Here are the reasons why I chose this system.
I like that I can get a wireless controller for it where I can control the engine when there is a problem on the layout the furthest away from the control stationBigGrin . I can use engines from different manufacturers ( I love marklin but not exclusively)Blushing . I like the options and the sounds for the esu decoders and the programmer for it. I'm not going to use it for controlling any switches or automatic control for the engines. I want to play with my layout what means for me to control all the switches and signals manually BigGrin and to pay attention to what I'm doing. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with controlling the layout through a computer or digital command control, just not for me. Thanks to John I'm going to get started to convert the analog engines I have to digital with esu sound decoders. At the moment I have a small test layout set up here in our SC home and a little bigger test layout in our home in CO where I have a dedicated room to build a future layout with m and c track.
Thanks again for all the great comments, help and advice I got from all of you.
Robert
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Offline Goofy  
#117 Posted : 12 July 2016 06:56:10(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Good choice to buy an Ecos.
Have fun with it!
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline river6109  
#118 Posted : 12 July 2016 07:15:01(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Robert, you will find with the latest version (ECoS updates) there are minimal bugs in it and over time ESU has added some more features but we don't know what the future holds I hope and they haven't gone down the same path as Märklin and introduced several versions of the CS. I also hope someone will come up with simpler versions how to use sound decoders and their aux functions or sound slots, I like to see these functions to be activated via sensors on the track for instance, you can release a horn before entering a tunnel, or automatic announcements in a station and so on and hopefully in the future we have decoders with more aux functions instead of extra adapter plates, e.g. 51968, 51970.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline applor  
#119 Posted : 13 July 2016 00:46:41(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Can the new Marklin locomotives with MFX+ be controlled as standard MFX (M4)? ie. you would be missing the additional MFX+ cab control features.

I am not really interested in the cab control features but if it cant be run as MFX then that rules out an Ecos because I'm not going back to MM with 27 speed steps.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#120 Posted : 13 July 2016 00:48:44(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Can the new Marklin locomotives with MFX+ be controlled as standard MFX (M4)? ie. you would be missing the additional MFX+ cab control features.


Short answer, Yes.
Offline Minok  
#121 Posted : 21 July 2016 22:24:40(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post

The real difference besides the inherent problems with MFX is if someone wants to "play trains" and finds some value in a Marklin controller which will support MFX+. I have absolutely no use for MFX+ even if the format worked as advertised. No railroad sends their equipment out with the hope they have enough consumables to make it to the destination. So why would you want to run your scale railroad like this? I want my hobby to challenge me, not be some brainless running in circles while I look at how much sand my E-lok has on board. Martin's tutorial has shown how to run your toy trains like a real railroad.


I'd not be so critical of MFX+. You can do the full freight and schedule modeling at reduced scale as you always have. Sure, a locomotive leaving a service station would have all of the consumables it needs. In operating a rail road you would always do that service before sending out the locomotive. The aspect the consumables brings is if you get sloppy and forget to actually do the service, then the train will suffer the consequences out on the its run, and you get to model how a real railroad may handle a mechanical break down (due to failed maintenance/servicing).
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline TEEWolf  
#122 Posted : 28 July 2016 03:13:57(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
... Concerning the CS3, it pisses me off the fact that old style boosters aren't supported....


And I berate the fact that I cannot restore a game off my 8" floppy.
What is your point ?


I wonder what's the real technical reason to "suggest" users to dump their 6017 / LDT DB-2 boosters. What if I use it to control DCC light signals? What about these who doesn't care about mfx+? I've seen layouts with 6 or 7 boosters (which is a lot around here). The owners of some of it were excited about the CS3 until they realize they may have to change all of their boosters and trafos.

If M wants to keep making money, they have to care about the old, loyal customers; not to start a fight by "diplomatically forcing them" to overhaul their whole power system just to get a new central station. Offer them a new product with backwards capabilities for their current stuff. If a booster was 50 dollars each, I think almost nobody would mind about the change, but (booster + trafo) x current amount of old style boosters it's a non despicable amount of money. M will lose the change to sell a few extra hundred of CS3's because of that.



Sorry, I really do not understand you or your friends concerns. Maerklin is loyal to its old customer. Why should they dump their 6017, 6021, etc.? Have a look at Maerklin's total systems architcture. There you see, how to connect all old digital parts together with the new ones. And instead of the second 60215 CS2, you set up the new 60216 CS3plus or 60226 CS3 or just add it to the CS2. That's it.

But you should keep in mind, that Maerklin changes with the CS3 to a 32 bit system, for whatever reasons. And if you set up your system with the 32 bit system (the CS2 has a 8 bit channel) then you still can use your CS2 as a regular booster for your layout.

Maerklin's systems architecture
Offline Hackcell  
#123 Posted : 28 July 2016 03:47:59(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
Let me know once you find the 6017 bus in the CS3.
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
Offline H0  
#124 Posted : 28 July 2016 08:19:20(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Maerklin is loyal to its old customer.
They supported the 6017 much longer than the 60212.
As a user and owner of a 60212 I have to say that Märklin left their customers with an incomplete, unfinished, and unsupported system only months after selling it. ESU still supply software upgrades for the 60212 and the ESU 50000. ThumpUp

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
But you should keep in mind, that Maerklin changes with the CS3 to a 32 bit system, for whatever reasons. And if you set up your system with the 32 bit system (the CS2 has a 8 bit channel) then you still can use your CS2 as a regular booster for your layout.
The 6017 needs a 1-bit output and (optionally) a 1-bit input and could work with 8-bit and 32-bit systems.
The CAN bus connects everything - and that is a serial bus. Only few peripherals - if any - will connect to the internal processor bus and will be affected by the transition from 8-bit to 32-bit.

I don't see how the change to a 32-bit architecture relates to the end of 6017 support.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline elfangor103  
#125 Posted : 29 July 2016 08:54:28(UTC)
elfangor103

United States   
Joined: 28/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 288
Location: New York
I just preordered the New Marlin Central Station 3 (60226). Convince me why I should have gotten the Ecos instead.LOL
Newly Started Analog Z Layout
Offline H0  
#126 Posted : 29 July 2016 09:45:54(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: elfangor103 Go to Quoted Post
Convince me why I should have gotten the Ecos instead.LOL
Why?
Everybody can get the best controller. Or the second best. Or the CS3.Wink
Rankings are subjective, "the best" is subjective.

Maybe the CS3 is the best controller for you and your needs. It is not the best controller for me and my requirements.
Make up your mind before placing an order.

I cannot convince you to like the same chocolate I like.
I cannot convince you to like the same controller I like.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline river6109  
#127 Posted : 29 July 2016 10:34:03(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: elfangor103 Go to Quoted Post
Convince me why I should have gotten the Ecos instead.LOL
Why?
Everybody can get the best controller. Or the second best. Or the CS3.Wink
Rankings are subjective, "the best" is subjective.

Maybe the CS3 is the best controller for you and your needs. It is not the best controller for me and my requirements.
Make up your mind before placing an order.

I cannot convince you to like the same chocolate I like.
I cannot convince you to like the same controller I like.


Tom, you've convinced me BigGrin

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline xxup  
#128 Posted : 29 July 2016 10:34:29(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
...I cannot convince you to like the same chocolate I like....


Would that be Lindt?

Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
Offline rbw993  
#129 Posted : 29 July 2016 15:27:09(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 954
77% or none!
Offline elfangor103  
#130 Posted : 29 July 2016 19:29:25(UTC)
elfangor103

United States   
Joined: 28/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 288
Location: New York
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
...I cannot convince you to like the same chocolate I like....


Would that be Lindt?



I do love Lindt!
Newly Started Analog Z Layout
Offline RayF  
#131 Posted : 29 July 2016 19:33:45(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: elfangor103 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
...I cannot convince you to like the same chocolate I like....


Would that be Lindt?



I do love Lindt!


I love the Lindors!

UserPostedImage

This discussion has gone deliciously off-topic! BigGrin
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by RayF
Offline TEEWolf  
#132 Posted : 30 July 2016 01:51:15(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: elfangor103 Go to Quoted Post
I just preordered the New Marlin Central Station 3 (60226). Convince me why I should have gotten the Ecos instead.LOL


I will convince you to buy a CS3+. Because I read in a German Märklin community, that the CS3 does not have a galvanic isolation (GI), but the CS3+ shall have it!

As long as you only have one electric circuit, it is fine and no problems will occur. But when you start making more circuits (with the so called boosters) you probable run into massive problems. Not at once, because as long as there is only one CS without a GI, it will functioning. But when you start with confirmable decoders or feedback circuits the problems beginn. This seems to me a reason why the CS3 does not have an interface for a S88 bus, whereas the CS3+ does have it. In the Märklin Magazin I read, that Märklin is working at a solution for the CS3. So you can use a CS3 in connection with a S88 too.

And just for fun:BigGrin Laugh
Which New Marlin do you prefer? I like the Atlantic blue Marlin most. Huh LOL But the CS likes only the ones from Maerklin.BigGrin (fun off).
Offline applor  
#133 Posted : 30 July 2016 03:16:23(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post

I will convince you to buy a CS3+. Because I read in a German Märklin community, that the CS3 does not have a galvanic isolation (GI), but the CS3+ shall have it!


Well the standard CS3 supports 5amps power supply and the whole reason the earlier CS2's don't support 5amp is because they did not have GI...

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post

This seems to me a reason why the CS3 does not have an interface for a S88 bus, whereas the CS3+ does have it. In the Märklin Magazin I read, that Märklin is working at a solution for the CS3. So you can use a CS3 in connection with a S88 too.



It is ridiculous to suggest it does not support S88! It just does not have a direct connection, you need to use the S88 Link. source:

http://railway.zone/post...d-central-station-3-plus
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline TEEWolf  
#134 Posted : 30 July 2016 04:09:58(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Maerklin is loyal to its old customer.
They supported the 6017 much longer than the 60212.
As a user and owner of a 60212 I have to say that Märklin left their customers with an incomplete, unfinished, and unsupported system only months after selling it. ESU still supply software upgrades for the 60212 and the ESU 50000. ThumpUp

I don't see, how the change to a 32-bit architecture relates to the end of 6017 support.


Well, now I can guess, what your concern is.Confused Confused But the 6017 is a booster or at least a digital power supply, still useable to its lifetime end. Your CS1 is still useable too. When you have a look at Märklin's systems architecture, you see both can be integrated in a nowadays digital environment for your MRR. The booster 6017 via its own bus and the CS1 via an internet cable connection.

Sorry, but it is a technique about 15 years old. This must not be bad and is still useable today, but I do not work with it. So I am not informed about these parts.
Well, what I try to configure out myself is the use of my about 50 years really old transformers for use of my lights, etc. as a power supply. Perhaps they may be too old and meanwhile a bit dangerous. I am not quite sure, but I think Märklin offers for them still an exchange program.RollEyes
Offline H0  
#135 Posted : 30 July 2016 08:21:57(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Sorry, but it is a technique about 15 years old.
You miss an important aspect: the 60212 is very old, but with the 4.x software it is a sophisticated controller: fast, fluent, ergonomic, and IMHO much better than a CS2.
The CS2 is newer, has a stronger processor, but it is so slow and so buggy. The UI cannot even display the correct speed step the TFP sends to the locos.

The first 60212 was shipped in October 2005 - so that makes it 10 years old. It was still sold in 2008. And support ended about 2008. That makes a very short support life cycle.
Microsoft still support Vista and the support for XP ended not so long ago ...

AFAIK the 60212 has galvanic insulation. And with 4 A output current you can go a long way without booster. The much newer 60213 only has 2.4 A output current and no galvanic insulation - what a progress.
A CS2 or CS3 can be used as a slave for the 60212 - but I'd rather buy some LocoNet controllers when I need them.

It seems Märklin burned a lot of money because the 60173 came without galvanic insulation. I just hope they do not make that stupid mistake again by bringing a CS3 without galvanic insulation.
Manuals and product descriptions are their weak spot - I wait till the product is out and the manuals are available for download.
There are 60214 with and without galvanic insulation and the current information about the new system architecture is clear as mud.

If the CS3 really comes without galvanic insulation then I will get problems using it with my 60214 as it also came without GI.
OK - the 60214 is very old and slow and should be replaced with something new. LOL
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline MaerklinLife  
#136 Posted : 30 July 2016 11:31:13(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Microsoft still support Vista and the support for XP ended not so long ago ...

Correct me if wrong, but to my knowledge no huge corporation has deployed the CS1 (or any CS for that matter) to hundreds of thousands of computers and rely on it everyday to run their billion dollar business. I think these arguments are getting a bit out of proportion. The CS is a toy, not a multi million dollar investment like a Microsoft Windows infrastructure can be. We are lucky that we can still use it with today's stuff. Lots of other toy/consumer companies leaves older stuff in the dust when new products arrives. At least Märklin does not.

The CS1 will work in the CS2/CS3 network, just like the 6021 will work with the CS2/CS3. It might not be the dream solution, but the investment is not lost.

According to Märklin: The 6017 cannot be used because it does not support mfx very well and it cannot relay the mfx+ information. Personally, I think Märklin had to draw a line in the sand, so some poor soul would not think that his ancient gear would "just work flawlessly" with the new products. If people are left with the impression that things would just work, they will become greatly disappointed when things does not work. It is better to just say: it does not work. Period. Done. Easier for the support and people will not be disappointed.

Of course you, obviously doing well in the digital field, might be able to get things to work. But not "every man Otto", he would just become frustrated, and a company like Märklin cannot have that. There are way more Otto's out there than there are digital experts. Waaaaay more. Honestly, I think the majority of layouts out there does not even have a booster nor a need for one. We happily invest in locos all the time. I suggest skipping a loco, upgrade a booster, and be happy. Smile

At least Märklin tell us up front, so we have a chance to decide whether or not to move on. As you have mentioned more times than I can count: There are other alternatives.
Offline elfangor103  
#137 Posted : 31 July 2016 09:07:56(UTC)
elfangor103

United States   
Joined: 28/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 288
Location: New York
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: elfangor103 Go to Quoted Post
I just preordered the New Marlin Central Station 3 (60226). Convince me why I should have gotten the Ecos instead.LOL


I will convince you to buy a CS3+. Because I read in a German Märklin community, that the CS3 does not have a galvanic isolation (GI), but the CS3+ shall have it!

As long as you only have one electric circuit, it is fine and no problems will occur. But when you start making more circuits (with the so called boosters) you probable run into massive problems. Not at once, because as long as there is only one CS without a GI, it will functioning. But when you start with confirmable decoders or feedback circuits the problems beginn. This seems to me a reason why the CS3 does not have an interface for a S88 bus, whereas the CS3+ does have it. In the Märklin Magazin I read, that Märklin is working at a solution for the CS3. So you can use a CS3 in connection with a S88 too.

And just for fun:BigGrin Laugh
Which New Marlin do you prefer? I like the Atlantic blue Marlin most. Huh LOL But the CS likes only the ones from Maerklin.BigGrin (fun off).


I did take a long hard look at the CS3 plus. But for me and my layout it needs I didn't not need or want the extra functionality. The S88 feedback functionality sounds pretty cool with all the automation I can fiddle around with. But, in the stage of my layout construction I would not be able to start adding contact/reed track and signals. And I have no plans on a second CS3, if I did my parents would kick me out (Only 19). Im going back to college soon and wouldn't want to prolong the construction period and drain my tiny bank out. Thank you for the input and the concern. BigGrin My bad, maybe my autocorrect seems to make Marlin, into Marlin. OopsBlink

Thanks,
Daniel
Newly Started Analog Z Layout
Offline H0  
#138 Posted : 31 July 2016 09:37:31(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
The CS1 will work in the CS2/CS3 network
It can be connected, but IMHO it doesn't make sense to do so.
A CS1 without ESU upgrade is a waste of money.
A CS1 with ESU upgrade cannot be connected to CS2/CS3 - but at least it is still supported and still receives upgrades..

ESU and Märklin should have found a customer-friendly solution when they gave up their co-operation. They do not even update the product database for MS1 and CS1.

Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
At least Märklin tell us up front, so we have a chance to decide whether or not to move on.
In the case of the CS1 they didn't give any warning.

Some folks bought the CS2 only weeks before the CS3 was announced. This led to short-term unhappiness - but hopefully Märklin fill make the customers happy in the long run.
The forum told people since 2013 that a new CS3 was coming - Märklin didn't give an official warning.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline clapcott  
#139 Posted : 31 July 2016 10:40:26(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: DB Fan Go to Quoted Post
So my question is which of the 2 systems is easier to use the CS2 or ESU 50200?? Any input is appreciated.
Thanks
Robert
Hello Robert,

My prime input would be for you to totally ignore/disregard any of the hijacking comments that are referring to legacy issues.
These might be worth discussing in a different thread, however to someone starting out with no legacy baggage, like yourself, I suggest you start , as you have indicated in your introduction, with what is the current range of products.


I might then add , and following on from Daves comment ...
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
As you can see there is no definitive answer, the decision is really up to you and your personal preferences. Don't let any one else tell you otherwise.
..., that you take as much time as you can to have a good play with the units you may have shortlisted.


In closing, I would personally suggest that ... - if you do not have local support that you are happy with (Club, Dealer, Colleagues) then you might be wary in choosing that option.
Peter
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Offline MaerklinLife  
#140 Posted : 31 July 2016 16:00:22(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
ESU and Märklin should have found a customer-friendly solution when they gave up their co-operation. They do not even update the product database for MS1 and CS1.

Yeah, but that did not happen, and here we are ~8 years later. You still seem to be bitter about it, personally, I got over it. The current product range support the Märklin version of the CS1. The CS1 with the ESU update is not a CS1 it is an ECoS in a CS1 shell. The unmodified CS1 still works with the new stuff, and that was my point. I totally understand that Märklin do not bring revolutionary updates to an old product. Why on earth should they do that? They make sure it works and that has to be good enough. My guess is that the CS2 will be supported for a year or two more and that is it.

I also do not see why Märklin should support customers who jumped ship to ESU. Judging from your signature, you are by no means a Märklin prime customer (if any at all, besides tracks perhaps). So why even bother?

Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Some folks bought the CS2 only weeks before the CS3 was announced. This led to short-term unhappiness - but hopefully Märklin fill make the customers happy in the long run.
The forum told people since 2013 that a new CS3 was coming - Märklin didn't give an official warning.

First of all, I was referring to the support for the old boosters being axed, nothing else. Not something that happened almost 8 years ago.

That being said: I do not know of many companies who go like: "Eh guys! You should know that we are about to release a new product in two years time. Just letting you know, in case you were planning to buy the existing ones". It would kill sales. Things getting the axe is always a risk. People will also buy the ECoS weeks before a new one is announced. They will be unhappy as well. You can't blame a company for trying to innovate. Whether or not you like whatever they come up with is a personal matter, but it can never be the company's fault. If you do not like a product, simply do not buy it. That is the only vote we all have in this.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by MaerklinLife
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