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Offline Harryv40  
#1 Posted : 23 July 2016 12:41:37(UTC)
Harryv40

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 242
Location: Wilshire
Hi All
Do you think it's time to start looking at suppliers!
We, I expect, model Marklin, but I think we need to start thinking about the items the other companies make and compare models.

Is a Marklin Model better then a Roco Model, these are what I believe are the golden rules.

1. Quality versus cost
2. Performance of the item
3. Is it pro typical
4. Quality of the building and finish
5. New model versus old model


I know this is going to be very subjective but I feel it's important that Marklin Users are able to compare, seek advice and guidance, especially when purchasing a new loco. Also to let members know the age of a second or new loco and to see what other members think. E.g. New HAG versus. Old HAG

What do people think?

Harryv40
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Online river6109  
#2 Posted : 23 July 2016 12:56:13(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,635
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Harry,
a.) quality versus cost, this is a tricky one, HAG uses materials which lasts longer in its original colour, zinc or chrome plated.

b.) performance seem to be ok with all models except a certain 3 pole motor from Märklin.,

c.) prototypical ? there are always compromises when it comes to this, example: BR E 18- E 19 (Roco or Märklin)

d.) Quality: HAG

e.) this can be viewed from different angles, some will say older and some will say newer models, newer models details are compromised over sturdy older models.

my view is: HAG than Roco than Märklin except Roco steamlocos (tender driven)

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 23 July 2016 13:58:21(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: Harryv40 Go to Quoted Post
I know this is going to be very subjective
Even worse: Märklin models vary a lot, Roco models vary a lot, other brands also have master pieces and crap.
It is impossible to make a useful ranking of brands.

It is possible to make a ranking for eg class 101, but you have to differentiate between configurations (Delta, fx with yellow LEDs, mfx with white LEDs, ...).
And even this ranking will still be somewhat subjective.

And it won't have any meaning for other models like class 120 or class E 18.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#4 Posted : 24 July 2016 03:49:16(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi,
Interesting questions to think about.
In my opinion, such a comparison is like trying to compare religions, or politicians.

For 3 rail digital, I have only 2 locos which are not Marklin.
On one of them the motor burnt out.
For 2 rail, I have many locos from many different manufacturers, including brass hand-made ones from Japan.

99% of what I have are marvellous examples of the model makers art, and are in modern parlance "fit for purpose".
I purchase what I can afford, pretty much regardless of whether it is value or not - value is subjective anyway.
If they are on a hobby shop shelf, the manufacturer is in business for the long term.
Some make stuff to suit a budget market and price, some make stuff at the opposite end to suit fastidious clients.
Who knows until you have owned it, and run it a few times anyway?

If I don't like it, or am tired of it (could often be for subjective reasons other than quality), I sell it on and that happens only every few years in my experience.

regards
Kimball

Edited by user 24 July 2016 09:03:02(UTC)  | Reason: added reference to manufacturers

HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline Harryv40  
#5 Posted : 24 July 2016 10:38:46(UTC)
Harryv40

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 242
Location: Wilshire
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Hi,
Interesting questions to think about.
In my opinion, such a comparison is like trying to compare religions, or politicians.

For 3 rail digital, I have only 2 locos which are not Marklin.
On one of them the motor burnt out.
For 2 rail, I have many locos from many different manufacturers, including brass hand-made ones from Japan.

99% of what I have are marvellous examples of the model makers art, and are in modern parlance "fit for purpose".
I purchase what I can afford, pretty much regardless of whether it is value or not - value is subjective anyway.
If they are on a hobby shop shelf, the manufacturer is in business for the long term.
Some make stuff to suit a budget market and price, some make stuff at the opposite end to suit fastidious clients.
Who knows until you have owned it, and run it a few times anyway?

If I don't like it, or am tired of it (could often be for subjective reasons other than quality), I sell it on and that happens only every few years in my experience.

regards
Kimball


Hi
I think for the majority of us buy what we can afford.
The reason for my suggest is that most companies produce the same model, they have a fairly small pool of original models to work with, but I would not know which Marklin models have the three pole engine or they appear a problem.
I remember when the Gotthard locos were released, some said I would buy the 4/4 model from Marklin and the other model from Roco.

That what some of us need clarification about.

Harry
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Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 24 July 2016 11:27:39(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Harryv40 Go to Quoted Post
I remember when the Gotthard locos were released, some said I would buy the 4/4 model from Marklin and the other model from Roco.
That what some of us need clarification about.
Are you referring to the Re 4/4 II or the Re 4/4 VI?

Both were made by Roco, Märklin, and HAG.
Some cannot afford HAG.
Some won't buy locos with plastic bodies if metal models are also available.
Some won't buy Märklin if models with better detailing are available.

So depending on the criteria you set, you will get six different rankings just for the Re 4/4 VI Gotthard loco - and another six for the Re 4/4 II Gotthard loco.

It makes sense to compare the models. But not on the brand level.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline GlennM  
#7 Posted : 24 July 2016 14:12:21(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,877
Location: Somewhere, But Nowhere Near Manchester, England
Originally Posted by: Harryv40 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Hi,
Interesting questions to think about.
In my opinion, such a comparison is like trying to compare religions, or politicians.

For 3 rail digital, I have only 2 locos which are not Marklin.
On one of them the motor burnt out.
For 2 rail, I have many locos from many different manufacturers, including brass hand-made ones from Japan.

99% of what I have are marvellous examples of the model makers art, and are in modern parlance "fit for purpose".
I purchase what I can afford, pretty much regardless of whether it is value or not - value is subjective anyway.
If they are on a hobby shop shelf, the manufacturer is in business for the long term.
Some make stuff to suit a budget market and price, some make stuff at the opposite end to suit fastidious clients.
Who knows until you have owned it, and run it a few times anyway?

If I don't like it, or am tired of it (could often be for subjective reasons other than quality), I sell it on and that happens only every few years in my experience.

regards
Kimball


Hi
I think for the majority of us buy what we can afford.
The reason for my suggest is that most companies produce the same model, they have a fairly small pool of original models to work with, but I would not know which Marklin models have the three pole engine or they appear a problem.
I remember when the Gotthard locos were released, some said I would buy the 4/4 model from Marklin and the other model from Roco.

That what some of us need clarification about.

Harry


As an observation in order to produce any meaningful assessment there needs to be some base criteria upon which to base the assessment and to benchmark tests. After all peoples personal opinion is subjective. I for one would not like to see another platform for certain individuals to reiterate their standard gripes. I would welcome factual testing and assessment on motor performance but would really like to stay away from what we had last year which was lots of bickering over motor types and performance without any real fact. IMHO people are quick to complain when there is a problem, but less inclined to make a statement when they are happy.

I also think different people will find different criteria important, some people think motors are important, some think accurate detailing, others just like a robust well made model (metal body versus plastic), so how can you pull it all together to form a generalised impression of the product. If you want to judge running characteristics, what will be the base, M track, or C track, we all now that some models don't run well on M track but do on C track.

Who will make the assessments and judge the models?

You also have to factor in the vagaries of manufacturing, all manufacturers build to a price and there will be dud items that slip through, does this make for a bad product or not, I have heard people slate off products on this forum saying they whine excessively or the running characteristics are poor, and yet I have run mine and found no problem, and so is this product to be judged harshly or not? Someone who gets a dud item will no doubt judge it harshly, but this may not reflect the product as whole.

With regard to the arguments over whether to buy a Roco or Marklin model, I am not sure we will ever resolve this on this forum as personal opinion/preference will always play a part. For me I buy models that interest me, and I look at what is available and buy whichever model excites me personally and that is unlikely to change with other peoples comments.

I recently purchased a BNIB loco from a collection, a König Ludwig Zug - Märklin Item 2860, when I opened it, there is damage to the paintwork which stems directly from the original manufacturing process; am I disappointed - of course I am, but I still love the product, I think it runs beautifully and is amazingly detailed; would I recommend it - certainly; would I buy another - yes if I had spare cash to buy a second one; do I feel it reflects badly on Marklin - no I don't. This is my opinion but may not be everyone's opinion. I am now working to try and get the loco restored.

I would not like to see a return to the endless bickering and argument we saw last year.

BR
Don't look back, your not heading that way.
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Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 24 July 2016 14:50:19(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post
I would welcome factual testing and assessment on motor performance but would really like to stay away from what we had last year which was lots of bickering over motor types and performance without any real fact.
What counts is the joined performance of motor and decoder.
Some people do not notice differences.
Some people do notice differences, but do not care.
Some people do notice differences, and it affects their purchase decision.

Saying "without any real fact" indicates how subjective this area is. Measuring the smoothness of the motor will be a challenge, especially if these tests are to be performed by different persons.
Or with other words: it can't be done with reasonable effort.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline GlennM  
#9 Posted : 24 July 2016 15:03:15(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,877
Location: Somewhere, But Nowhere Near Manchester, England
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Measuring the smoothness of the motor will be a challenge, especially if these tests are to be performed by different persons.


Tom,

This is in fact only part of the issue, in order to present a definitive finding, the motor would also have to be compared on a like for like basis with other manufacturers motors, to decide which, if any, was better. In reality there may well be pluses and minuses for different motor types from different manufacturers.

Perhaps one of the key factors that will be hard to establish but may interest most new buyers is longevity of the motors or how they perform over time. One aspect that I think all Marklin fans love is the fact that we can largely enjoy locos from 50's and 60's often out of the box or with minimal maintenance, I for one doubt the same will be true of modern motors in 50-60 years time. Who knows maybe the cheapest motors will be the most durable Confused Huh Laugh

I also understand that some of the debate last year was about the fact that members felt there were better quality motors available which were being overlooked by Marklin, this is of course a different aspect of the debate.

BR
Don't look back, your not heading that way.
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Offline Rwill  
#10 Posted : 24 July 2016 15:41:26(UTC)
Rwill

United Kingdom   
Joined: 04/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 777
Location: England, London
I think Marklin are getting better again at targeting the markets they are aiming for:

On here in the last couple of days we have the little proclaimed release of 44083 a construction site freight car set as an extension to a start set for 6 year olds and upwards. For fifty quid you get three freight cars a model and a sound decoder that gives a variety of relevant sound effects - brilliant product for its market - there may even be the odd 60 year old tempted!. But most important it may get essential youngsters (and their parents purses) into our hobby so that one day when they have the inflation adjusted thousand quid to spare they will invest in the latest VT11.5 full train set. Purists will scorn and mock a relex coupled, plastic bodied, non prototypical product but I believe they are very wrong to do so.
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#11 Posted : 25 July 2016 16:02:26(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,862
Location: CA, USA
While I prefer Marklin and Hag, I personally find Roco the most consistent in quality and performance.

I have maybe 20+ Roco locomotives and zero problems ever except one bad decoder, which was a 21 pin and a 5 minute warranty swap. (It wasn't really Roco's fault: the problem only arose when running for 10+ minutes and it was Zimo the decoder manufacturer's fault) There is really something to be said for that kind of a track record.

Marklin is great but I've had some gremlins, all are well documented here on the forum. I havent bought a HAG in the last few years, but those always were the gold standard. Just lovely.

Liliput I find very fragile, but could be worse. It does the job when its a model another brand does not produce.

Bemo I find stellar, although they make very little for standard HO

Hornby/Eletrotren/Rivarossi are so so. Liliput grade quality.

SBB Era 2-5
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Offline RayF  
#12 Posted : 25 July 2016 16:19:01(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: 5HorizonsRR Go to Quoted Post
While I prefer Marklin and Hag, I personally find Roco the most consistent in quality and performance.

I have maybe 20+ Roco locomotives and zero problems ever except one bad decoder, which was a 21 pin and a 5 minute warranty swap. (It wasn't really Roco's fault: the problem only arose when running for 10+ minutes and it was Zimo the decoder manufacturer's fault) There is really something to be said for that kind of a track record.

Marklin is great but I've had some gremlins, all are well documented here on the forum. I havent bought a HAG in the last few years, but those always were the gold standard. Just lovely.

Liliput I find very fragile, but could be worse. It does the job when its a model another brand does not produce.

Bemo I find stellar, although they make very little for standard HO

Hornby/Eletrotren/Rivarossi are so so. Liliput grade quality.



Hi John,

Where would you rate Piko? I have several of their locos from the Hobby and Expert ranges and they are very good for the price.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#13 Posted : 25 July 2016 17:52:14(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,862
Location: CA, USA
Hi Ray! Probably not enough experience with Piko to report? I'm curious myself. I have one of those $100 hobby traxx locos which I bought at the Porsche museum, its nice but not much to go by.

I will say their customer service in the US is EXCELLENT. When I got home from Stuttgart I realized one pantograph was broken in the packaging. An email to Piko USA and I had a free replacement within a week despite buying the loco overseas. Good stuff!
SBB Era 2-5
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Online hxmiesa  
#14 Posted : 27 July 2016 11:46:57(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,519
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: Harryv40 Go to Quoted Post
1. Quality versus cost
2. Performance of the item
3. Is it pro typical
4. Quality of the building and finish
5. New model versus old model

I understand where this comes from, and I think we could answer this 25 years ago. But not today.

EARLIER all Ms locos where made to (almost) the same standard. (I think I remember that the 44xx series of freight waggons (pressed tin plate chassis) existed side-by-side with the 46xx series model waggons.) -But generally the style and quality was the same all over.
But as new models and technology was introduced (27cm plastic waggons, instead of 24cm tin plate waggons) some product-series beagn to exist simultainously. Some (mostly) older models were segmented into starter-or junior-series.
This segmentation today is now full-blown, with all kind of quality and detail-level segmented into beginner-, intermediate- and professional- lines.
Development and manufacturing takes places in different parts of teh world, and there is simply no general style or quality level anymore. I think this goes for all the brands. Especially the begger ones.
AND on top of all theis segmentation and geographic spread of design and manufacturing, we can also add increades frecuency of new product launch. Not all will have been produced with the same care...
To make a valid judgement like youwant, we would have to make too many segments and subgroups, and all this would be obsolete instantly, as the companies shift priority between segments, and discontinue older quality-filosophies, and embark on new ones all the time.

M. today is stil the biggest and most important producer of trains. They have earned their reputation by offering a good quality/price level throughout its history. But the future may be changing faster than their own hectic internal changes... :-/
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline mrmarklin  
#15 Posted : 27 July 2016 13:59:08(UTC)
mrmarklin

United States   
Joined: 27/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 890
Location: Burney, CA
I can only go by my experience with the ETE modules where I have run trains all day. IMO no one really runs trains like this on a home layout. That is, several trains continuously for as many as eight hours at a time, stopping and starting at signals, running over fairly rough untuned track surfaces, and sometimes squirrelly turnouts. The modular environment is not an easy one. I've observed all brands of trains over the 20+ years of modular running and the best brand overall is Märklin by far. The Loks are more reliable, the rolling stock derails less and false uncouplings are fewer.Cool
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
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Offline Harryv40  
#16 Posted : 27 July 2016 16:20:17(UTC)
Harryv40

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 242
Location: Wilshire
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: 5HorizonsRR Go to Quoted Post
While I prefer Marklin and Hag, I personally find Roco the most consistent in quality and performance.

I have maybe 20+ Roco locomotives and zero problems ever except one bad decoder, which was a 21 pin and a 5 minute warranty swap. (It wasn't really Roco's fault: the problem only arose when running for 10+ minutes and it was Zimo the decoder manufacturer's fault) There is really something to be said for that kind of a track record.

Marklin is great but I've had some gremlins, all are well documented here on the forum. I havent bought a HAG in the last few years, but those always were the gold standard. Just lovely.

Liliput I find very fragile, but could be worse. It does the job when its a model another brand does not produce.

Bemo I find stellar, although they make very little for standard HO

Hornby/Eletrotren/Rivarossi are so so. Liliput grade quality.



Hi John,

Where would you rate Piko? I have several of their locos from the Hobby and Expert ranges and they are very good for the price.


Originally Posted by: mrmarklin Go to Quoted Post
I can only go by my experience with the ETE modules where I have run trains all day. IMO no one really runs trains like this on a home layout. That is, several trains continuously for as many as eight hours at a time, stopping and starting at signals, running over fairly rough untuned track surfaces, and sometimes squirrelly turnouts. The modular environment is not an easy one. I've observed all brands of trains over the 20+ years of modular running and the best brand overall is Märklin by far. The Loks are more reliable, the rolling stock derails less and false uncouplings are fewer.Cool


I glad I have got you all thinking!!!
I like RayF, keep looking at Piko, great value for money, but is it any good? Someone said that the expert range was very good but the hobby range was poor.
What about Brawa?
Another viewpoint could be the level of detail, sometime ago, I purchased a Very detailed Brawa model and managed to remove the windscreen wipers in five minutes, it's called fingers like sausages. So for some of us we need to trade off between level of detail and quality against damage protection?

Harryv40
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Offline RayF  
#17 Posted : 27 July 2016 18:02:31(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi Harry,

The earlier Piko Hobby locos are quite basic, but the later ones are quite comparable with Marklin Hobby locos except that the bodies are plastic.

Brawa are very nice, but expensive.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline mrmarklin  
#18 Posted : 27 July 2016 23:32:49(UTC)
mrmarklin

United States   
Joined: 27/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 890
Location: Burney, CA
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Hi Harry,

The earlier Piko Hobby locos are quite basic, but the later ones are quite comparable with Marklin Hobby locos except that the bodies are plastic.

Brawa are very nice, but expensive.



I know nothing about PIKO, but it's hard to keep Brawa models in one piece because the detail parts are very fragile. I have several of their Loks and quite a bit of rolling stock, both freight and passenger and all is very delicate.

Good Looking, though!Flapper
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
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Offline Harryv40  
#19 Posted : 27 July 2016 23:33:30(UTC)
Harryv40

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 242
Location: Wilshire
Hi Ray
How's Gib?

I have managed to obtain two Brawa models at very low price. The model I described removing the screen wipers from was one of them!

With reference to Piko, they do look really great now, I expect it the old problem, very easy to get a bad reputation and difficult to get a good one.
I must say, the plastic bodies don't worry me it about the quality of the finish.


Harry
Offline RayF  
#20 Posted : 28 July 2016 00:00:38(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Here are a couple of comparison photos:

Marklin Am842
UserPostedImage

Piko CFL1500
UserPostedImage


Marklin Br628
UserPostedImage

Piko Desiro
UserPostedImage


Marklin CFL4000
UserPostedImage


Piko E186
UserPostedImage

Marklin Br243
UserPostedImage

Brawa Br242
UserPostedImage

Marklin Br34.70
UserPostedImage

Brawa Br53.8
UserPostedImage

I could go on, but I think these are a good spread showing the comparison of the three brands. In operation there's hardly any difference between the three brands, and as far as looks go they compare well, I think.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline jcrtrains  
#21 Posted : 28 July 2016 02:13:29(UTC)
jcrtrains

Canada   
Joined: 31/10/2009(UTC)
Posts: 597
Location: Toronto, Ontario
I'd be happy with any of those locomotives Ray. They have certainly become harder to differentiate on. I would add Acme and Ls models as other worthy items.

I find I often buy based on a model being unique. Brawa has several that are unique such as the E 95, 77 and 73 as well as the BR 06, 15 and 19. Other manufacturers are similar in unique offerings. At the end of the day, I think detail and quality of most are high and it becomes what models you like and what manufacturer you are comfortable with. All very subjective.

There is room for more specialists. I am still humming and hawing over the LE models ETR 231, a new small manufacturer specializing in Italian items. Perhaps for xmas.
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Offline H0  
#22 Posted : 28 July 2016 08:30:01(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mrmarklin Go to Quoted Post
The modular environment is not an easy one. I've observed all brands of trains over the 20+ years of modular running and the best brand overall is Märklin by far. The Loks are more reliable, the rolling stock derails less and false uncouplings are fewer.Cool
In my coupler ranking the Roco Universal Coupler is far ahead of the Märklin Close Coupler.
I've had several problems with unwanted uncoupling with Märklin cars while they still had the original Märklin Close Coupler - installed Roco Univeral Couplers instead and the issue was solved. Cars also couple smoother and more easy.

I'd rank the Fleischmann Profi Coupler above the Märklin Close Coupler, too.

I've had some de-railing problems with Märklin cars. In some cases it was enough to remove the grates from the trucks. In some cases it was enough to disassemble the trucks and assemble them correctly.

When it comes to lack of quality assurance, I see problems with several brands. In my personal list Märklin is second to none in this aspect.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline mike c  
#23 Posted : 28 July 2016 08:54:47(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
It used to be easy. It was Hag, followed by Maerklin, ADE, Trix, Roco, Fleischmann, Rivarossi then Rowa, Liliput, Lima, Heris, Jouef, Klein Modellbahn, Kleinbahn, Brawa, and so on…

Then there were changes in the industry which improved the rankings of some of the companies, notably the introduction of 1/87 by Roco and the expansion of it's product line in the mid to late 80s and 90s.
Then, in the early 2000s there was the addition of companies like LS Models, RailTop, ACME and so on, which took detail and finish quality to new levels.
At the same time, many of the existing companies went through financial troubles which affected their ranking, including:

Maerklin/Trix
Roco
Lima/Rivarossi/Jouef
Kleinbahn/Klein Modellbahn

Today, after restructuring, the brands are still around, but with changes. Production of some items was moved to Asia, companies were merged or integrated and others simply disappeared.
I think that you have to evaluate each model, rather than overall per brand, because a company might be tops for one item, but be at the bottom for another.
I don't collect brands, but rather models, so I look for the best Swiss or international models that suit my Swiss theme. I will look for the best model for a locomotive and the best model for a coach or car and brand name is not as important. Of course, I will be less likely to buy a model if that brand has a reputation for parts that break or couplers that cause derailments and more likely to buy a model if it is accurate and runs well.

In the end it is up to you to decide what each model or brand means to you. Hopefully you will enjoy the trains and they will bring you hours of relaxation and memories.

Regards

Mike C
Offline GlennM  
#24 Posted : 29 July 2016 12:11:41(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,877
Location: Somewhere, But Nowhere Near Manchester, England
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mrmarklin Go to Quoted Post
The modular environment is not an easy one. I've observed all brands of trains over the 20+ years of modular running and the best brand overall is Märklin by far. The Loks are more reliable, the rolling stock derails less and false uncouplings are fewer.Cool
In my coupler ranking the Roco Universal Coupler is far ahead of the Märklin Close Coupler.
I've had several problems with unwanted uncoupling with Märklin cars while they still had the original Märklin Close Coupler - installed Roco Univeral Couplers instead and the issue was solved. Cars also couple smoother and more easy.

I'd rank the Fleischmann Profi Coupler above the Märklin Close Coupler, too.

I've had some de-railing problems with Märklin cars. In some cases it was enough to remove the grates from the trucks. In some cases it was enough to disassemble the trucks and assemble them correctly.

When it comes to lack of quality assurance, I see problems with several brands. In my personal list Märklin is second to none in this aspect.


I am interested in your coupling comments, I mostly use the various Marklin couplings, and had thought for trains that will run as a consist (i.e. no shunting or uncoupling required) that the simple bar coupling pieces would be best ??? For coaches you can use the conductive bar coupling.

I have had a few instances where Marklin couplings regularly become uncoupled, usually as a result of a defective coupling piece, but I have experienced more problems with the mechanism that attaches the NEM pocket to the wagon/coach, sometimes the mechanism sticks and the lack of movement causes the wagon/coach to derail, and I am not sure replacing the coupling would solve this.

I have a number of Roco wagons which come with the Roco 40270 Close coupler head, but IMHO they do not seem to connect well or disconnect well in simulated shutting scenarios.

Would be interested to hear other thoughts on peoples experience with couplings, is there an ideal coupling?

Don't look back, your not heading that way.
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Offline GlennM  
#25 Posted : 29 July 2016 12:43:37(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,877
Location: Somewhere, But Nowhere Near Manchester, England
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Hi Harry,

The earlier Piko Hobby locos are quite basic, but the later ones are quite comparable with Marklin Hobby locos except that the bodies are plastic.

Brawa are very nice, but expensive.


With regard to Brawa models, I must say I love the detail (although this makes the models hard to handle) and build quality seems overall rather good, I would add that in my experience Brawa models like well laid track, and know of issues running the newer models on M track and K track.

I would also say that they can be challenging to dismantle for simple service tasks, I have one of the E95 models, and it is serious pain in the posterior to access the screw drive for greasing (and there are two screw drives), it is a lot more complicated than your average Marklin loco.

This is the E95 model

UserPostedImage


Best Regards
Don't look back, your not heading that way.
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Offline RayF  
#26 Posted : 29 July 2016 14:02:26(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi Glenn,

The coupling saga seems to roll on and on for ever. I personally prefer the Marklin close couplers for all Wagons that they will fit.

The Roco universal couplings are not bad, but I find the Marklin more to my taste. The Roco close couplings are very good but I object to how prominent they are when they end up on the end of the train.

For non-Marklin stock I try Marklin couplers to see if they will foul the buffers, and if they don't I keep them. If they do foul I will fit the Roco or equivalent NEM coupler.

BTW that's a very pretty model of the E95! ThumpUp
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline GlennM  
#27 Posted : 29 July 2016 15:15:49(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,877
Location: Somewhere, But Nowhere Near Manchester, England
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Hi Glenn,

The coupling saga seems to roll on and on for ever. I personally prefer the Marklin close couplers for all Wagons that they will fit.

The Roco universal couplings are not bad, but I find the Marklin more to my taste. The Roco close couplings are very good but I object to how prominent they are when they end up on the end of the train.

For non-Marklin stock I try Marklin couplers to see if they will foul the buffers, and if they don't I keep them. If they do foul I will fit the Roco or equivalent NEM coupler.

BTW that's a very pretty model of the E95! ThumpUp


Thanks Ray, after I posted I did wonder if the couplings question would end up being as divisive issue as the motors, and was not my intention. I am genuinely interested in performance and key issues such as coupling and uncoupling during shunting operations, for which I feel in my experience Marklin couplings seem to work quite well provided they are not damaged and have been aligned using the coupling alignment tool.

Interesting comments, I am assuming there is more chance of a snag on the buffers the tighter the curve?

Thanks for your comments on the E95, the prototype is a lovely design, and I think the model does it justice, but to be honest I wish I had waited longer and got the version with sound. In respect of my model I would say that when I first ran it, it made a terrible screeching noise as it ran, applying a small amount of Trix grease to the two screw drives then running it little, then adding a little more, until it ceased. It now runs very well, and had some nice slow running, but with reference to the discussion on motors, I would note that it is not the quietest loco I own.

BR
Don't look back, your not heading that way.
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Offline RayF  
#28 Posted : 29 July 2016 17:43:05(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi Glenn,

Quote:
Interesting comments, I am assuming there is more chance of a snag on the buffers the tighter the curve?


Yes I would say so. The Marklin buffers are mounted a bit higher than their scale position so that they always clear the couplers. Other brands with the buffers in the correct position can foul the coupler top against the bottom edge of the buffers, causing a derailment. The sharper the curve the more likely they will touch.

|Another solution is to file away part of the bottom edge of the buffers on the offending wagon if you really want to use it with the Marklin close couplers. It's a bit drastic but generally will be invisible to all but the most attentive observer.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Harryv40  
#29 Posted : 29 July 2016 20:34:55(UTC)
Harryv40

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 242
Location: Wilshire
Hi Guys
I agreed about the coupling issues, but I think it's the same the world over, it's really about finding the right coupling to allow you to run a rake of mixed wagons, Marklin, Roco, Brawa, etc without finding half the rake left behind somewhere on the track.

I am was a bit worried about starting this topic but for me it's very informative , only running HO for 9 months or so!

Let's keep it going, any views on Marklin Delta locos? How to change digital chips and the best to use with the Marklin digital system.

Harry
Offline Harryv40  
#30 Posted : 29 July 2016 20:37:24(UTC)
Harryv40

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 242
Location: Wilshire
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Here are a couple of comparison photos:

Marklin Am842
UserPostedImage

Piko CFL1500
UserPostedImage


Marklin Br628
UserPostedImage

Piko Desiro
UserPostedImage


Marklin CFL4000
UserPostedImage


Piko E186
UserPostedImage

Marklin Br243
UserPostedImage

Brawa Br242
UserPostedImage

Marklin Br34.70
UserPostedImage

Brawa Br53.8
UserPostedImage

I could go on, but I think these are a good spread showing the comparison of the three brands. In operation there's hardly any difference between the three brands, and as far as looks go they compare well, I think.


Ray
When I improve my skill set I will post some pictures of my locos especially the. Brawa

Harry
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