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Offline skeeterbuck  
#1 Posted : 28 January 2016 12:02:58(UTC)
skeeterbuck

United States   
Joined: 15/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 523
Location: Maryland, Baltimore
Being a Yank, I not very familiar with European Prototype Practices. Unsure

Does the baggage car go behind the engine or at the rear of the train?

If their's two baggage cars, is it one at the front and one at the rear?

What is the protocol? Does the dinning car come next and then the sleeping cars? Confused

Thanks!

Chuck
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Offline Swimmer  
#2 Posted : 28 January 2016 12:05:21(UTC)
Swimmer

South Africa   
Joined: 18/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 33
Location: Centurion
Mostly the baggage cars are at the rear of the trains, and the resturant car is normally between the first and second class coaches

Regards
Carsten
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Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 28 January 2016 13:09:47(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Chuck!
Originally Posted by: skeeterbuck Go to Quoted Post
What is the protocol?
That varies from state to state and from era to era.
In early era II there had to be a car without passengers between the locomotive and the first coach with passengers. Back then the Rheingold always had a baggage car right behind the loco - and between Frankfurt and Mannheim (both terminus stations) there were two baggage cars on the train.

Later baggage cars could be anywhere in the train - sometimes even between coaches.

Dining coaches were sometimes at the end or near the end of the train - e.g. if they weren't going the full way. Coaches carried on, but loco and dining car were taken off the train.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Unholz  
#4 Posted : 28 January 2016 13:14:11(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: skeeterbuck Go to Quoted Post

Does the baggage car go behind the engine or at the rear of the train?
If their's two baggage cars, is it one at the front and one at the rear?
What is the protocol? Does the dinning car come next and then the sleeping cars?


Here the baggage car is/was normally either just behind the engine or at the rear of the train. If a train exceptionally had two baggage cars, then they would probably have been together (this facilitates loading and unloading because the crew and the platform vehicles can be positioned at more or less the same place).

Dining cars were indeed usally between the first and second class coaches, but Tom correctly mentioned the alternative that was very common for instance on the St. Gotthard route.
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Offline ParisTsirchoglou  
#5 Posted : 28 January 2016 14:55:17(UTC)
ParisTsirchoglou

Greece   
Joined: 01/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 127
Location: Thessaloniki, Greece
Hello Everybody.

I had the same question as Chuck did, so all your feedback was very helpful to me also. Thank you for that.

I have one more similar question though (I am fairly new to our hobby). Is there a front and a back side on the baggage cars? And the same question goes for passenger cars also. I have some lovely "Hechtwagen" era II cars, but don't know which is the front and which is the back of the car (silly ... I know!!!). Finally its the same on freight cars with a brakeman's cab. Where does the cab go? Looking to the front or to the back?

Kind Regards

Paris
Era I and Era II German and Swiss Steamers and E-Loks. Proud owner of a Challenger (-;
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Offline jvuye  
#6 Posted : 28 January 2016 14:55:23(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi, Chuck!
Originally Posted by: skeeterbuck Go to Quoted Post
What is the protocol?
That varies from state to state and from era to era.
In early era II there had to be a car without passengers between the locomotive and the first coach with passengers. Back then the Rheingold always had a baggage car right behind the loco - and between Frankfurt and Mannheim (both terminus stations) there were two baggage cars on the train.

Later baggage cars could be anywhere in the train - sometimes even between coaches.

Dining coaches were sometimes at the end or near the end of the train - e.g. if they weren't going the full way. Coaches carried on, but loco and dining car were taken off the train.


You already have the answers to your questions.
I'll just add that you'll find about any combination possible, especially in the days where long distance / international trains would often change composition along the way
Baggage cars would not just carry passengers luggage but also mail, parcels and express deliveries, long before FedEx and ups had invented the concept.
Before ww II, the CIWL famed Orient express would carry one or two baggage cars, along with sleeping car, Pullman salon car and restaurant car. Since not all cars were going for the whole Paris Istanbul run ( some would stop in Prag for Example) the cars were arranged to facilitate the change of locos when the train was being split.
So, if there was baggage car limited to Prag, it's position could have been in middle of the consist where it would have been separated from the Istanbul bound section.

Another interesting case was the postwar Rheingold, with ran combined with the Rheinpfeil with number of split/ recombination of the coaches. And yes, it had a (partial) baggage car in the set: the famous DB dome car had a baggage compartment on the lower deck.Wink next to the zugfuhrer office.

After the war the same orient express was no longer pure CIWL material and would see a number of local French, German, Austrian, etc. equipment joining the composition for some or part of the run. Net result is that almost any imaginable combination has been seen one day or another.

For a model railroader this is a license to freely combine equipment and/ or conceive switching sessions with passengers consists rather than only with freight cars.

Hope this gives you the idea that you have lots of freedom!!BigGrin
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 28 January 2016 15:14:32(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Apropos Rheingold 1962: the dome car and the dining car had a "fixed" combination (fixed by convention) where the kitchen of the dining car was next to the bar of the dome car. Thus they could easily serve snacks to visitors of the bar. So on your layout place the hump of the dining car next to the bar (note the missing window) of the dome car.


Originally Posted by: ParisTsirchoglou Go to Quoted Post
I have some lovely "Hechtwagen" era II cars, but don't know which is the front and which is the back of the car
With terminus stations on the route, trains went in one way and came out in reverse. Hechtwagen can run in both ways and that's how they were used.

And AFAIK freight cars were used as they came. I don't think they turned them around to bring the cab into a certain position.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline skeeterbuck  
#8 Posted : 28 January 2016 15:58:53(UTC)
skeeterbuck

United States   
Joined: 15/12/2015(UTC)
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Location: Maryland, Baltimore
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi, Chuck!
Originally Posted by: skeeterbuck Go to Quoted Post
What is the protocol?
That varies from state to state and from era to era.
In early era II there had to be a car without passengers between the locomotive and the first coach with passengers. Back then the Rheingold always had a baggage car right behind the loco - and between Frankfurt and Mannheim (both terminus stations) there were two baggage cars on the train.

Later baggage cars could be anywhere in the train - sometimes even between coaches.

Dining coaches were sometimes at the end or near the end of the train - e.g. if they weren't going the full way. Coaches carried on, but loco and dining car were taken off the train.


I model Era II mainly up to WWII which I guess Using hindsight I should have mentioned in my original post. Blushing

I'm running 42757 Marklin set. In the instructions with the set it shows the baggage car first, then dinning car, then both sleeping cars. With no indication of which end the loco is, I wasn't sure because I know that the baggage cars do come at the end sometimes.

Now, if I could just figure out how to order a spare handrail for the one I'm missing and get some replacement RTS couplers, I'll be set. ThumpUp

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Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 28 January 2016 16:46:25(UTC)
H0


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Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
They say 1925 for the 42757 set. I'd run the baggage car behind the loco.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline skeeterbuck  
#10 Posted : 28 January 2016 16:54:49(UTC)
skeeterbuck

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Joined: 15/12/2015(UTC)
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Location: Maryland, Baltimore
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
They say 1925 for the 42757 set. I'd run the baggage car behind the loco.


Thanks Tom,

Yea, like this: loco+baggage car+dining car+green sleeping car+teak sleeping car

Chuck
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Offline biedmatt  
#11 Posted : 28 January 2016 18:31:42(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Great thread with a lot of good input. Thanks everyone!
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline lmedberry  
#12 Posted : 29 January 2016 04:04:43(UTC)
lmedberry

United States   
Joined: 14/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 55
Thanks everyone,

I was wondering the same thing. Great help!

Lance
Offline Dreadnought  
#13 Posted : 29 January 2016 21:00:16(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 418
Location: Niagara, Ontario
When the baggage car is in the centre of the train, as mentioned by Jaques, could passengers walk through it?
I have seen pictures from the fifties where it is, with a delightful mix of sleeping cars, CIWL, and DSG, along with a restaurant car, and some dy coaches. I like to think my passengers can get to the dining car, no matter where it is relative to them.
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Offline H0  
#14 Posted : 30 January 2016 07:59:27(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post
When the baggage car is in the centre of the train, as mentioned by Jaques, could passengers walk through it?
Some baggage cars have a sidewalk, allowing passengers to walk through it.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#15 Posted : 30 January 2016 08:15:36(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post
When the baggage car is in the centre of the train, as mentioned by Jaques, could passengers walk through it?
I have seen pictures from the fifties where it is, with a delightful mix of sleeping cars, CIWL, and DSG, along with a restaurant car, and some dy coaches. I like to think my passengers can get to the dining car, no matter where it is relative to them.


Well of course anything goes on a model train layout.
But in reality, train compositions often had rules.
For example, the dining car may have had a baggage car between it and part of the train, because day passengers were not allowed access to the diner.
In some trains, it was reserved for those who paid a premium fare, and so on.

But certainly I have seen pictures (post 1946) where baggage cars are in different parts of the train.

regards
Kimball

HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline SteamNut  
#16 Posted : 30 January 2016 09:47:52(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 488
I recall reading somewhere the baggage car was usually put behind the lok for the comfort of the passengers as soot and ciders fell more on the first car then others.
Offline NS1200  
#17 Posted : 30 January 2016 12:23:58(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Do recall that in older Marklin catalogues,say mid sixties,the coach set pulled by the steamer series 01 (3048) was having the bagagecoach just after the loco.
Have never seen two bagagecoaches in expresstrains.
The Rheingold before WW2 was having one after the loco and the other at the end,this because the train needed to go in the reverse direction at Hook of Holland (Hoek van Holland),it saved shunting of the bagagecoach to the other end.
Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#18 Posted : 30 January 2016 14:38:09(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
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Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Do recall that in older Marklin catalogues,say mid sixties,the coach set pulled by the steamer series 01 (3048) was having the bagagecoach just after the loco.
Have never seen two bagagecoaches in expresstrains.
The Rheingold before WW2 was having one after the loco and the other at the end,this because the train needed to go in the reverse direction at Hook of Holland (Hoek van Holland),it saved shunting of the bagacoach to the other end.


The new Orient Express coach set is supplied with two baggage cars.

But that may be because the rich travel with lots of luggage .. Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh
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Offline Western Pacific  
#19 Posted : 30 January 2016 15:22:04(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 841
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
Originally Posted by: SteamNut Go to Quoted Post
I recall reading somewhere the baggage car was usually put behind the lok for the comfort of the passengers as soot and ciders fell more on the first car then others.


There was also a safety aspect. In era II many passenger coaches were still wooden constructions built on a steel frame. This meant that such a coach could easily be turned into toothpicks in case of a train crash (and you can figure out yourselves what the fate of the passengers would be), in particular if squeezed between a solidly built steam engine and the rest of the train pushing forward. For that reason, a baggage coach or a freight wagon was between the engine and the passenger coaches. These rules could be removed when all coaches were built from steel and that is a reason for why train on photos from era III and later eras can have the baggage coach(es) at other positions in the train.

For the restaurant coach, it was if possible located in the middle of the train for the comfort of the passengers who had fewer coaches to walk through compared to when it is first or last coach (not counting any baggage coaches).
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Offline NS1200  
#20 Posted : 30 January 2016 15:37:49(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Do recall that in older Marklin catalogues,say mid sixties,the coach set pulled by the steamer series 01 (3048) was having the bagagecoach just after the loco.
Have never seen two bagagecoaches in expresstrains.
The Rheingold before WW2 was having one after the loco and the other at the end,this because the train needed to go in the reverse direction at Hook of Holland (Hoek van Holland),it saved shunting of the bagacoach to the other end.


The new Orient Express coach set is supplied with two baggage cars.

But that may be because the rich travel with lots of luggage .. Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh


I never travelled on the Orient Express,that was a bit before my time........

Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
Offline kiwiAlan  
#21 Posted : 30 January 2016 15:51:54(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Do recall that in older Marklin catalogues,say mid sixties,the coach set pulled by the steamer series 01 (3048) was having the bagagecoach just after the loco.
Have never seen two bagagecoaches in expresstrains.
The Rheingold before WW2 was having one after the loco and the other at the end,this because the train needed to go in the reverse direction at Hook of Holland (Hoek van Holland),it saved shunting of the bagacoach to the other end.


The new Orient Express coach set is supplied with two baggage cars.

But that may be because the rich travel with lots of luggage .. Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh


I never travelled on the Orient Express,that was a bit before my time........



Nowadays we have the Venice-Simpleon Orient Express, using refurbished orient Express coaches, that externally look very similar to the ones in last years sets.

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Offline H0  
#22 Posted : 30 January 2016 16:03:46(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Western Pacific Go to Quoted Post
There was also a safety aspect.
Until 1933 or 1934 a baggage car or such was required between loco and first passenger coach in Germany.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline NS1200  
#23 Posted : 30 January 2016 16:08:39(UTC)
NS1200

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 3,443
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Do recall that in older Marklin catalogues,say mid sixties,the coach set pulled by the steamer series 01 (3048) was having the bagagecoach just after the loco.
Have never seen two bagagecoaches in expresstrains.
The Rheingold before WW2 was having one after the loco and the other at the end,this because the train needed to go in the reverse direction at Hook of Holland (Hoek van Holland),it saved shunting of the bagacoach to the other end.


The new Orient Express coach set is supplied with two baggage cars.

But that may be because the rich travel with lots of luggage .. Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh


I never travelled on the Orient Express,that was a bit before my time........



Nowadays we have the Venice-Simpleon Orient Express, using refurbished orient Express coaches, that externally look very similar to the ones in last years sets.



The Marklin model reflects the train as it was in 1921.

Have more than you show,speak less than you know (Shakespeare).
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Offline steventrain  
#24 Posted : 30 January 2016 17:16:14(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,601
Location: United Kingdom
Interesting topic.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline H0  
#25 Posted : 30 January 2016 21:57:13(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Here you can find information about the composition of the Rheingold in 1951:
http://www.heinrich-hank...ildung/e3a_rheingold.htm

Between Cologne and Mannheim the baggage car was the third car in the train, from Mannheim to Basel it was the last car in the train.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline jvuye  
#26 Posted : 30 January 2016 23:43:06(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NS1200 Go to Quoted Post
Do recall that in older Marklin catalogues,say mid sixties,the coach set pulled by the steamer series 01 (3048) was having the bagagecoach just after the loco.
Have never seen two bagagecoaches in expresstrains.
The Rheingold before WW2 was having one after the loco and the other at the end,this because the train needed to go in the reverse direction at Hook of Holland (Hoek van Holland),it saved shunting of the bagacoach to the other end.


The new Orient Express coach set is supplied with two baggage cars.

But that may be because the rich travel with lots of luggage .. Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh


In fact, one of the baggage car was immediately followed by the restaurant car, with the kitchen end towards the baggage car.
In the early days of the OE, lots of ( non perishable) supply for the restaurant car was stored in there, and could be taken into the kitchen/ restaurant car on an "as needed" basis , since the space in the kitchen was utterly limited.
Still all the cooking was done on board.

In today's VSOE (which I rode in 2010) the **3** restaurant cars + the bar-lounge coach are in the middle of the train. (which consists of 17 to 19 coaches)
There are no more "true" baggage cars, but rather post-war Lx style coaches that have been modified to carry luggage and supplies and another two have been rebuild as cabins for the train personnel.

Cheers
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#27 Posted : 31 January 2016 00:40:08(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post

In today's VSOE (which I rode in 2010) the **3** restaurant cars + the bar-lounge coach are in the middle of the train. (which consists of 17 to 19 coaches)


There was a documentary on TV recently about the VSOE, and showed them loading the kitchen supplies in through a window on the kitchen car. I forget the amount of time available to load it, but it wasn't very long, a figure of 40 minutes comes to mind.

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Offline kimballthurlow  
#28 Posted : 31 January 2016 00:55:44(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
I am speaking historically, up to about 1965???

The baggage car is "usually" immediately behind the engine, or at the rear of the train, for one very important reason.
These are the extremities of the train, and at those stations where baggage or parcels are loaded, that task can be accomplished with minimal interference to the loading of passengers.

And that is the reason you see parcels offices, and loading carts waiting, at the ends of railway platforms.

Of course in todays' world, baggage cars are not used for passenger workings.
Let them all struggle on board with heavy stuff up stairs, with no room allowed for storage, and encourage them to use airlines, where luggage can be booked foward.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline PJMärklin  
#29 Posted : 31 January 2016 06:04:06(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: skeeterbuck Go to Quoted Post
Being a Yank, I not very familiar with European Prototype Practices. Unsure

Does the baggage car go behind the engine or at the rear of the train?

If their's two baggage cars, is it one at the front and one at the rear?

What is the protocol? Does the dinning car come next and then the sleeping cars? Confused

Thanks!

Chuck



Hello Charles,


I do apologise for repeating my post of Feb 2015.....


At least in Epoch II, I understand regulations (ordnung forever !!) required the baggage car to be directly behind the locomotive:


see 2nd paragraph of : http://www.dbtrains.com/en/epochII.6


Regards,

PJ
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Offline H0  
#30 Posted : 31 January 2016 07:50:25(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
At least in Epoch II, I understand regulations (ordnung forever !!) required the baggage car to be directly behind the locomotive:
see 2nd paragraph of : http://www.dbtrains.com/en/epochII.6
There were times in era II when this was required, there were times in era II when this was no longer required.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Bones  
#31 Posted : 09 July 2016 08:27:51(UTC)
Bones

Australia   
Joined: 15/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 105
Location: Queensland
Just to add my 2 cents worth

I do believe that for the German railways the placing of the baggage car behind the locomotive was for safety

I think cars carrying flammable liquids were also put at the rear for similar reasons

In Australia I don't think it mattered they just put the baggage car in the most sensible spot

When freight trains had guard vans they could occasionally be behind the locomotive but it was very rare
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Offline H0  
#32 Posted : 09 July 2016 08:38:43(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Bones Go to Quoted Post
I do believe that for the German railways the placing of the baggage car behind the locomotive was for safety
This was definitely required for an early part of era II, but not for the late part of era II and later eras.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline baggio  
#33 Posted : 09 July 2016 21:35:38(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
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Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: Western Pacific Go to Quoted Post
For the restaurant coach, it was if possible located in the middle of the train for the comfort of the passengers who had fewer coaches to walk through compared to when it is first or last coach (not counting any baggage coaches).


ThumpUp That's where I like to put my dining coach. ThumpUp

What about the sleep coach? Should it be in the middle as well?

I thought of putting it at the end, but if it comes off the train, when the passengers wake up....Scared
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Offline H0  
#34 Posted : 10 July 2016 08:11:03(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Both restaurant coaches and sleeping coaches sometimes did not go the full way. Therefore it is prototypically correct to have either of those at any end of the train.
If restaurants go the full way, they will probably be in the middle - often between first and second class.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline mike c  
#35 Posted : 11 July 2016 21:02:09(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
For long distance trains, it was common to find the baggage car situated at the front of the train at departure. On many of those trains, the route involved stopping at kopf bahnhofs along the way and in some cases, additional coaches might be added to the train, so the baggage car could find itself at the front, at the rear or somewhere in the middle. Some trains might even have included baggage and mail cars which may have been together or at different places in the train.
As far as the restaurant car, my experience has been that it is usually positioned between the first and second class sections, so that passengers from both classes can get there. The other reason for this is so that the second class passengers don't traipse through the 1st class coaches on their way to the diner. Some classic trains even contained separate restaurant coaches for 1st and 2nd class passengers, in which case, the restaurant was in the 1st class part of the train and the other car would be in the 2nd class or between the 2nd and 3rd class sections (before 1957).
Many times, the restaurant cars do not travel across certain borders (due to power supply issues, or contracts). In this case, the restaurant might be positioned in a non-standard position. For example, the IC Tiziano and Verdi had the DB Speisewagen at the rear end of the train as it was detached from the train at Chiasso along with one or two coaches while the bulk of the train continued to Milano. The coaches would wait there for the return trip.

Sleeping cars, couchettes would often be attached to other trains for certain routes. They would be attached to the open end of the train and could be found at the front or the rear of the main consist.
As the train would be pulled into a kopf bahnhof by a locomotive, that would then be detached and the train then pulled out from the other end, it was complicated to add the coaches at the rear as this would require shunting the train from that track and then backing it into another platform track where the coaches were waiting. I did see this kind of operation once or twice in Switzerland as the sleeper passengers could have more time to embark this way than the usual short stop for the through train.

I also remember an Intercity from Frankfurt(M) to Paris in the 1980s which had the then standard second class - restaurant - first class composition and then had the baggage/bike coach at the lead, behind a couple of French Corail coaches. But that was a long story that involved the Gendarmes on arrival in Paris, so I won't go into too much detail.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline dickinsonj  
#36 Posted : 12 July 2016 01:14:33(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Wow - a great thread and it answers a lot of questions that I have had when arranging the coaches on my passenger trains. I have somehow missed this thread until it came back to life recently. It sounds like my somewhat haphazard coach arrangement can be justified after all. BigGrin

Thanks everyone for the excellent input!

I have one other type of car to ask about. My Era II Wurttemberg train has a lovely postal car with clearstory windows, which looks wonderful when the lights are on. It is one of my favorite cars. I have often put it in the front, along with my baggage car but I have often wondered what the most prototypical placement for it would be.

I know someone here knows the answer to this question - there is so much railroad knowledge floating around this forum. Cool
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline H0  
#37 Posted : 12 July 2016 08:28:15(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
My area of interest is era III and later. Postal cars can be at either end of the train, like the baggage car.
Often they do not go the full journey and are added or removed when the locomotive is changed, so they can be right behind the locomotive.

Postal cars can be on the same end as the baggage car, but they can also be at opposite ends.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline dickinsonj  
#38 Posted : 12 July 2016 12:59:49(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Postal cars can be on the same end as the baggage car, but they can also be at opposite ends.

Thanks for the information. Actual railroads had to be flexible in car placement to accommodate efficient operation, so we are more free to arrange the cars on our trains as we like. The one theme I see throughout is that most non-passenger cars were at one end of the consist or the other and not mixed into the middle of the passenger coaches.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline H0  
#39 Posted : 12 July 2016 13:30:04(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
The one theme I see throughout is that most non-passenger cars were at one end of the consist or the other and not mixed into the middle of the passenger coaches.
Many baggage cars have gangways and can be (and were) between coaches. But I think postal cars did not have gangways and I think I never saw them between coaches.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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