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Offline river6109  
#1 Posted : 30 June 2016 06:01:12(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
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Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Hi, bought this central station about 12 month ago second hand and never used it since than, so I never tried it if it actually works. yesterday I've connected it and the digital display works, on and off button works but no loco responds to any number under any settings (4 digit). is it just the memory whereas you have to re-charge it from time to time or is the central unit as well, I have done this overnight but nothing has changed. and there is power to the track so it must be within the central unit
any help would be appreciated

regards.,

John

Edited by user 11 July 2016 07:19:05(UTC)  | Reason: Topic titles should always start with a capital! (It would be nice if your sentences did as well!)

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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#2 Posted : 30 June 2016 06:19:05(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

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Usually with the 6021 it is the output transistors that have failed and need replacing. Replacements are readily available and I'm sure you could do this yourself. There are previous threads in the forum on how to do it and the types of transistors used (I know they are Darlington transistors, but the type escapes me at the moment).

It sounds like all of the other buttons work OK on your 6021, so given the symptoms I think it is the transistors that have failed.
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Offline river6109  
#3 Posted : 30 June 2016 06:40:46(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
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Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Usually with the 6021 it is the output transistors that have failed and need replacing. Replacements are readily available and I'm sure you could do this yourself. There are previous threads in the forum on how to do it and the types of transistors used (I know they are Darlington transistors, but the type escapes me at the moment).

It sounds like all of the other buttons work OK on your 6021, so given the symptoms I think it is the transistors that have failed.
Dave any hints what I should search for ? central unit 6021 ?


John
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#4 Posted : 30 June 2016 06:52:36(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

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Location: New Zealand
Transistors are standard BDW93C/94C Darlingtons. (Note: insulation from the heat sink is required - which means you need the insulating washers that go with the transistors, plus some heatsink compound). You should replace both transistors in a pair.

Here's a post from Peter Clapcott regarding symptoms of blown 6021 transistors - https://www.marklin-user...l-with-6021-control-unit

Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Tex,

I would suggest that a short has (had) developed between the yellow and red.
This results in stressing the driver transistors of the 6021.

2 situations usually occur
- 1 A "good" short - will blow the transistors
- 2 A "poor" short will make them sluggish

Your description is typical of (2) - a poor short with the the transistors delivery power but not crisply enough for the decoder to understand - A loc will therefor assumes "analogue mode" and will take off at 2/3 speed.

occasionally different address patterns may make the signal recognisable but this is borderline.

replace BOTH driver transistors

BEFORE you connect it (or any other controller) to the layout thoroughly check for yellow<> red shorts,





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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#5 Posted : 30 June 2016 06:56:23(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

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Location: New Zealand
Here's another thread on the process of opening up a 6021 and replacing the transistors.

https://www.marklin-user...5117-Marklin-6021-Repair
Offline river6109  
#6 Posted : 30 June 2016 07:06:35(UTC)
river6109

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Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Here's another thread on the process of opening up a 6021 and replacing the transistors.

https://www.marklin-user...5117-Marklin-6021-Repair


thanks Dave, I've opened the unit but couldn't find anything visual hence I have put it back together again but AI will buy these transistors today and see what happens.
de soldering the transistors shouldn't be a problem as I have a soldering iron which has a type of grab plier points.

appreciate your quick help ThumpUp


regards.,

John

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Offline mike c  
#7 Posted : 30 June 2016 08:04:59(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Hi, bought this central station about 12 month ago second hand and never used it since than, so I never tried it if it actually works. yesterday I've connected it and the digital display works, on and off button works but no loco responds to any number under any settings (4 digit). is it just the memory whereas you have to re-charge it from time to time or is the central unit as well, I have done this overnight but nothing has changed. and there is power to the track so it must be within the central unit
any help would be appreciated

regards.,

John


The 6021 works with 2 digit (00-81) for addresses. Not quite sure what you mean by 4 digit.
The dip switches on the rear should be set all off except #2 on.

Make sure that both the L and F lights are on. If only one is on, the unit might not communicate with locomotives.
I have one 6021 where the buttons no longer seem to fully contact the PCB board. It is possible that the plastic liner under the housing has slipped out of position.

Before you go changing any components, double check with digital switch track or other digital solenoid function to see if the function commands work

Good luck

Mike C
Offline river6109  
#8 Posted : 30 June 2016 11:42:34(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
the parts mentioned above BDW 93 CFP and BDW 94CFP are not the same on my unit BDX 34C, BDX 33C, does it matter which go in ?

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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#9 Posted : 30 June 2016 12:47:26(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

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Location: New Zealand
As long as they are equivalent, there should not be a problem.

To make sure, check the datasheet specs for each. Also check that the Base, Collector and Emitter pin outs are the same. One transistor will be a PNP and the other NPN and together they make a matched pair. So, the pin outs for the 93 / 33 should be the same, likewise the pin outs for the 94 / 34 should be the same.

http://www.onsemi.com/pu.../Collateral/BDX33B-D.PDF

https://www.fairchildsem...datasheets/BD/BDW93C.pdf

https://www.fairchildsem.../datasheets/BD/BDW94.pdf
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#10 Posted : 30 June 2016 12:57:13(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

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Offline manos.g.darkadakis  
#11 Posted : 02 July 2016 02:12:39(UTC)
manos.g.darkadakis


Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 18
Location: Athens, Greece
John have you checked the output with an AC voltmeter? If final transistors have failed there should be not any output on the meter. Also the 4 dip switches are all supposed to be off for HO scale...

Regards Manos SV1IW
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#12 Posted : 02 July 2016 02:50:53(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: manos.g.darkadakis Go to Quoted Post
If final transistors have failed there should be not any output on the meter.


Not necessarily..........

Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

2 situations usually occur
- 1 A "good" short - will blow the transistors
- 2 A "poor" short will make them sluggish


See Peter's quote that I reference in post #4 above.
Offline mike c  
#13 Posted : 02 July 2016 04:47:27(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
For operation with modern decoders, the dip switch #2 should be moved to on. If all dip switches are off, some decoders will not understand the commands.
Please consult the instruction manual for more details.

Regards

Mike C
Offline river6109  
#14 Posted : 02 July 2016 10:05:20(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Hi all,
I'm in the process of ordering the 3 transistors, one company asked A$ 12.95 for postage and this is a no no, I will look again at the aliexprss website although you buy in quantities of 10 you are still buying them cheaper as buying them from any ebay sellers and most the time its postage free. I'm not in a hurry for them but will let you know when I've installed them, have removed the old ones and one BDW m93C looks a bit suspicious.

there is DC voltage on the track and yes if you look at the instruction booklet it show clearly which dip switch should be on or off.

John
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Offline manos.g.darkadakis  
#15 Posted : 02 July 2016 16:08:36(UTC)
manos.g.darkadakis


Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 18
Location: Athens, Greece
John voltage may be present on the output of the controller but perhaps not enough current (Amps). So the best way to check this out before getting to replacement procedure is through a load and a voltmeter/Ammeter. Voltage will drop dramatically even with a small load if the transistors are bad. Any cheap Chinese multi meter will do.

Regards Manos SV1IW

Edited by user 04 July 2016 00:34:19(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline river6109  
#16 Posted : 03 July 2016 05:42:04(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
since I've got inside the 6021 and took it apart I found the heat sink screw had been used before and also some of the electronic components seem to have been re soldered or replaced before hand.
John


6021 (1).JPG

6021.JPG

6021 (2).JPG

6021 (3).JPG

Edited by user 03 July 2016 15:31:22(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline kiwiAlan  
#17 Posted : 03 July 2016 13:53:26(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
since I've got inside the 6021 and took it apart I found the heating element screw had been used before and also some of the electronic components seem to have been re soldered or replaced before hand.
John


Ugh !!! I would suggest you clean that PCB with some alcohol and an old toothbrush to get rid of all that white residue. Medicinal alcohol will do as bought from a chemist, such as ladies use for cleaning earrings for pierced ears will work fine. This will get rid of most of the white residue, which I suspect is from a previous attempt at cleaning the rosin off. Called Isopropyl Alcohol, which is available from most Pharmacies /BDNZ

Gently scrubbing with an old toothbrush will help to move the residue. When finished if there is still some residue then try with some warm water containing a tiny drop of dish wash detergent, and rinse well afterwards.

Your close up of the transistor is out of focus (you already knew that BigGrin ). If you have a jewellers loupe tape it over the lens on your phone camera, and you can get real close and be in focus. You will need to be able to get quite a bit of light onto the subject, but as a system it works well. I have used this in the past when looking at defects in PCB tracks.

One point about soldering the PCB, use a low power soldering with a very fine tip, and don't keep it on the joint too long. I had occasion to go over the joints in someones 6050 booster, and the tracks were very fine and it was difficult to stop them peeling off the surface.

Not sure what you mean by heating element screw - is this a screw into the heat sink, the big lump of finned metal?

Edited by moderator 04 July 2016 03:25:12(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Shamu  
#18 Posted : 04 July 2016 02:29:36(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
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Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
A bit hard to tell from the photo's but at a glance it looks like the worst case of "Whiskers" I have ever seen. Well at least for area effected.

Regardless John I'd take Alan's advice and recommend sealing the board with lacquer when repairs are finished.
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
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Offline river6109  
#19 Posted : 04 July 2016 04:27:50(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
to all: thanks for the helpful advice, will implement recommendations

John
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#20 Posted : 04 July 2016 14:56:06(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Shamu Go to Quoted Post
A bit hard to tell from the photo's but at a glance it looks like the worst case of "Whiskers" I have ever seen. Well at least for area effected.

Regardless John I'd take Alan's advice and recommend sealing the board with lacquer when repairs are finished.


I'm not sure if it actually has whiskers, or if it is just the gunge left after an attempt at cleaning the rosin off.

Rosin will leave a white deposit that looks like that if cleaned with isopropyl alcohol without brushing or properly washing off afterward, which is what I suspect has happened here.

Offline river6109  
#21 Posted : 05 July 2016 11:09:32(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
here is a picture of one of the transistors which is not responding on the multimeter from the middle to the right (BDX33C) whereas the other 2 do respond (BDX34C)


transistor.JPG
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#22 Posted : 05 July 2016 11:29:19(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

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Location: New Zealand
I wonder if those transistors have been changed before, given they are a different type to what is (known to be) normally installed in the 6021.
Offline river6109  
#23 Posted : 05 July 2016 14:22:33(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
I wonder if those transistors have been changed before, given they are a different type to what is (known to be) normally installed in the 6021.


Dave, very interesting, is there any proof with previous 6021's ? as I have never looked into this although I've opened one before but I can't remember whether it was just pure curiosity ? maybe the person who sold it to me may can shine some light onto it ? I doubt it thou as I can't remember who sold it to me.

John

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Offline river6109  
#24 Posted : 11 July 2016 07:18:33(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Hi, thanks again for the supply of transistors (Peter C.), arrived today.

6021 first attempt: fail = DCC mode
6021 second attempt: fail = all 4 levers off
6021 third attempt: fail = number 2 on
6021 forth attempt: SUCCESS = number 2,3,4 on

cause: 1, 2 or 3 transistors broken

I wonder how many people discard components like this and especially with white goods, some of them stop working after 12 month. we've got a Fischer and Paykel twin dishwasher and most of the plastic components within the electronic circuit boards have more or less disintegrated, we've got a serviceman out and he couldn't or wouldn't fix the dishwasher unless we agree for him to fit new parts, in the end it would have been cheaper to buy a new one but every time he connected the dishwasher another part failed, never again will we buy this brand, these days it is a common acceptance if your appliance is more than 3 years old throw it away and the experts tell you don't throw your old fridge or freezer out the new ones will never last the same period.

John

Edited by user 11 July 2016 14:05:35(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#25 Posted : 11 July 2016 11:11:23(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
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Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
.......is there any proof with previous 6021's ?


The transistor types that I quoted are based on the info Peter C advised based on his repair of 20+ 6021's, plus what other forum members have advised.

Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
We've got a Fischer and Paykel twin dishwasher and most of the plastic components within the electronic circuit boards have more or less disintegrated.......never again will we buy this brand


A good New Zealand brand, but they're not made in New Zealand any more - Fisher & Paykell are now owned by the Chinese (Haier) and are made in Mexico.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#26 Posted : 11 July 2016 13:36:39(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Transistor types can be clearly seen in this photo from Gordon originally posted in this thread:- https://www.marklin-user...5117-Marklin-6021-Repair

Offline river6109  
#27 Posted : 11 July 2016 14:05:01(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Transistor types can be clearly seen in this photo from Gordon originally posted in this thread:- https://www.marklin-user...5117-Marklin-6021-Repair



Dave, yes I've copied it, Peter supplied me (free of charge) with the transistors and all the insulators. ThumpUp ThumpUp ThumpUp

John
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Offline mmervine  
#28 Posted : 11 July 2016 21:35:33(UTC)
mmervine

United States   
Joined: 30/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,883
Location: Keene, NH
Congrats on getting your 6021 repaired!
Märklin C-track, Marklin Digital & ECoS, multi-era French & Swiss
http://www.ete-ene.org/m...mervines-layout-gallery/
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Offline river6109  
#29 Posted : 24 August 2016 15:17:03(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Hi,

unfortunately, the 6021 failed again today, on its own it worked fine, added another controller (80F), worked fine, added another 80F and it failed, so I may have 2 problems, the 3rd controller I've added or the 6021 internal circuit board is faulty somewhere else (which sounds unlikely), maybe some of you could fill me in what the course it is this time, will open the 3nd 80F controller and see if I can find something.

John
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#30 Posted : 24 August 2016 16:55:11(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

unfortunately, the 6021 failed again today, on its own it worked fine, added another controller (80F), worked fine, added another 80F and it failed, so I may have 2 problems, the 3rd controller I've added or the 6021 internal circuit board is faulty somewhere else (which sounds unlikely), maybe some of you could fill me in what the course it is this time, will open the 3nd 80F controller and see if I can find something.

John


before opening it, what combinations of the c80f units have you tried? Do all combinations of two controllers work fine and then fitting the third one (whichever one is left over ) cause it to die? If so it sounds to me like the power supply in the 6021 may not be able to supply enough current. I don't know how many c80f/6050/1/memory units/etc it should be able to handle, but I would have thought quite a few.

I would suspect that some other transistor in the voltage regulator portion of the 6021 may have got cooked when the original failure and subsequent repair attempts occurred.



Offline river6109  
#31 Posted : 24 August 2016 17:21:34(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

unfortunately, the 6021 failed again today, on its own it worked fine, added another controller (80F), worked fine, added another 80F and it failed, so I may have 2 problems, the 3rd controller I've added or the 6021 internal circuit board is faulty somewhere else (which sounds unlikely), maybe some of you could fill me in what the course it is this time, will open the 3nd 80F controller and see if I can find something.

John


before opening it, what combinations of the c80f units have you tried? Do all combinations of two controllers work fine and then fitting the third one (whichever one is left over ) cause it to die? If so it sounds to me like the power supply in the 6021 may not be able to supply enough current. I don't know how many c80f/6050/1/memory units/etc it should be able to handle, but I would have thought quite a few.

I would suspect that some other transistor in the voltage regulator portion of the 6021 may have got cooked when the original failure and subsequent repair attempts occurred.




maybe but its strange that the 6021 works with one 80f and not 2 , I don't think there is a restriction on how many you can add but I would think 8 or 10 should be plenty.

there is another transistor in the 80f and most probably the ones I've replaced are gone again. will know when I test them.

John

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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#32 Posted : 24 August 2016 21:57:28(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
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Location: New Zealand
Check that one of the 80f's isn't introducing a new short which then shorts the 6021.
Offline river6109  
#33 Posted : 25 August 2016 04:10:23(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Check that one of the 80f's isn't introducing a new short which then shorts the 6021.


Dave, this is what I thought, I've taken it apart (80F) and have noticed one transistor, the strange thing is, the 80f is from my original purchase and I can't remember it being faulty but its been that long I haven't used it, I've opened it years ago just for curiosity but it may have been faulty but I can't remember. the best thing replace all the transistors again and see what happens.

John
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5 years in Destruction mode
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#34 Posted : 25 August 2016 11:07:37(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Check that one of the 80f's isn't introducing a new short which then shorts the 6021.


Dave, this is what I thought, I've taken it apart (80F) and have noticed one transistor, the strange thing is, the 80f is from my original purchase and I can't remember it being faulty but its been that long I haven't used it, I've opened it years ago just for curiosity but it may have been faulty but I can't remember. the best thing replace all the transistors again and see what happens.

John


I would be more suspicious of an electrolytic capacitor going short circuit after drying out over the years.

I remember during my apprenticeship having an electrolytic capacitor do something funny that resulted in a lovely woodgrain finish all over the PPI display of a radar set.

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