Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

3 Pages123>
Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline DB Fan  
#1 Posted : 21 June 2016 22:37:25(UTC)
DB Fan

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2016(UTC)
Posts: 265
Location: Colorado
Hello everybody.
I'm more confused then ever about digital. I was planning a analog layout and then read about the digital and thought I would rather make it digital. I would like to control engines with Marklin decoders and dcc decoders from other manufacturers. I'm not into changing the cv's or any other involved stuff. I like to have good sound and running engines. So my question is wich of the 2 systems is easier to use the CS2 or ESU 50200?? Any input is appreciated. Thanks
Robert
Online xxup  
#2 Posted : 21 June 2016 22:50:33(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
They are both good systems. The only practical differentiator, now that both control units support DCC, is support for Marklin's mFx+ standard. Only the CS2 supports this standard.

The other one is that the eCOS comes with a power supply while one for the CS2 is extra.
Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by xxup
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#3 Posted : 21 June 2016 22:52:29(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
There's plenty of previous threads on this topic.

I have both a CS2 and an Ecos (the original one). Both are easy to use. The decision comes down to personal preference. If you have an all Marklin layout then the CS2 might be your choice. If you like to mix and match differing products from different manufacturers then the Ecos might be more suitable.

The CS2 has better options for using remote slave controllers / devices, so if you have a large layout with multiple control points this might be a consideration for you.

The Ecos can be used with either 4 amp or 8 amp boosters so for a large Gauge 1 layout, this might be an important consideration. The CS2 is limited to maximum 5 amp boosters. The Ecos has some limited compatibility with Loconet, which might be a consideration.

As you can see there is no definitive answer, the decision is really up to you and your personal preferences. Don't let any one else tell you otherwise.
thanks 5 users liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 21 June 2016 23:21:46(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: DB Fan Go to Quoted Post
So my question is wich of the 2 systems is easier to use the CS2 or ESU 50200??
Both require some reading and some trial and error. I don't know which one is easier to use.
I prefer the ECoS. It's much faster to use, much more efficient and much more comfortable and better suits the way I want to run my trains.
Your mileage may vary. Try both - for hours, not just for minutes.

The ECoS supports RailCom and RailCom+, the CS2 does not. RailCom+ is an advantage when buying new non-Märklin locos.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Dave Banks  
#5 Posted : 21 June 2016 23:34:20(UTC)
Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,026
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
Hello Robert, Ecos 50200 for me. Really easy to use. My CS2 cost me a lot of money when it stopped working. Just my two cents worth.
D.A.Banks
Offline Thewolf  
#6 Posted : 21 June 2016 23:53:52(UTC)
Thewolf

Canada   
Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 2,035
Location: Saint Mathias dur Richelieu-Canada
Originally Posted by: DaveB Go to Quoted Post
Hello Robert, Ecos 50200 for me. Really easy to use. My CS2 cost me a lot of money when it stopped working. Just my two cents worth.


Hi...what do you mean by ''My CS2 cost me a lot of money when it stopped working.'' , please ?

Thewolf
Project The Richelieu Valley Railway-CS2-Track C- Itrain-Digital
Offline 3rail4life  
#7 Posted : 22 June 2016 01:25:55(UTC)
3rail4life

United States   
Joined: 23/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Northern California
Having both is nice, since I have mostly Märklin locos I usually use the CS2, either way they work great, but the CS2 is my preferred controller.
Offline DB Fan  
#8 Posted : 22 June 2016 01:49:07(UTC)
DB Fan

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2016(UTC)
Posts: 265
Location: Colorado
Thanks so far for the replys. I'm looking for all the info I can get so I can make a more informed decision what unit to buy. I read a lot here that the cs2 has a lot of software problems and needs a lot of updating. Is that the same for the ecos system? I also would like a walk around controller. I think it is very helpful when you build a layout since a problem usually occur as far away from your controller as possibleBigGrin Blink . I thought reading the different threads on here would help but got more confused because of all the problems and details. So keep the replys coming. Thank you.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#9 Posted : 22 June 2016 02:00:23(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Thewolf Go to Quoted Post
...what do you mean by ''My CS2 cost me a lot of money when it stopped working.'' , please ?


I think he means he paid a lot of money for a device that ultimately broke.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#10 Posted : 22 June 2016 02:13:58(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: DB Fan Go to Quoted Post
I read a lot here that the cs2 has a lot of software problems and needs a lot of updating. Is that the same for the ecos system?


The Ecos has had many software updates since it was issued, probably no different to the CS2 in that regard.

You say that the CS2 has a lot of software problems, but that is not borne out by my experience - I have found the software updates to be reasonably stable. There have been problems for folks trying to update the CS2, but that tends be more to do with networking setups rather than any actual fault with the CS2.

Originally Posted by: DB Fan Go to Quoted Post
I also would like a walk around controller.


See my previous comment about the CS2 and remote controllers.

To elaborate, an Apple iThingy device or an Android device (ipad, iphone, ipod, android tablet, android phone) can be used as a remote controller along with the appropriate piece of software and a wireless network. Another CS2 can also be used as a remote device.

To do this with an Ecos you need to purchase the ESU Radio Control device which costs about 250 euro. There was an Apple based app that could run on an iThingy which could be used as a remote device - this was written by one of our forum members, but Jens has not had time to further develop the app so has ceased selling it and updating it.
Offline biedmatt  
#11 Posted : 22 June 2016 03:16:48(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post

To do this with an Ecos you need to purchase the ESU Radio Control device which costs about 250 euro.


No David, that is not right. You can use ESU's MC2 controller if you like, it is an Android device specifically configured for operation of model railroads. Or you can install a VNC app like "Screens" on your iThingie, connect the ECoS to your wireless with a Cat5 cable (same as CS2) and operate the trains with your phone or tablet. The device's screen will be an exact duplicate of the ECoS screen. This was added more than two years ago when ESU released V4.0.0.


Edit, added photo:

UserPostedImage
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by biedmatt
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#12 Posted : 22 June 2016 04:04:24(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
You can use ESU's MC2 controller if you like, it is an Android device specifically configured for operation of model railroads.


That's the device I was referring to, just couldn't remember its name. A friend has one and he doesn't even own an Ecos so he had to borrow mine, but the MC2 can also run other Android apps such as CS2Remote.

Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Or you can install a VNC app like "Screens" on your iThingie, connect the ECoS to your wireless with a Cat5 cable (same as CS2) and operate the trains with your phone or tablet. The device's screen will be an exact duplicate of the ECoS screen.


I was aware the Ecos is running a mini VNC server but I have never tried using the feature.

The other remote control option for the Ecos (if your pockets are deep enough) is to use an Ecos L.Net (Loconet) adapter and connect an Intellibox / Intellibox 2 as a remote device. Keep in mind that the L.Net adapter wants to be the master Loconet device, and you cannot connect Loconet boosters to the L.Net adapter.
Offline river6109  
#13 Posted : 22 June 2016 05:17:32(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
in your case it may not differ as you intend to go from analog to digital, other wise I would have suggested with the ECOS you can connect your mobile station 1 and 6021 or 6020 and therefore use these components in conjunction with the ECoS.
I've bought a few ECoS link terminals and these will be placed around the layout so I can use my 4 mobile stations 1 at various points.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Goofy  
#14 Posted : 22 June 2016 06:59:27(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Märklin do present new CS3 under autumn/winter 2016 in the market.
This new digital system is faster and more functions than the old CS2 and Ecos 50200.
ESU with the Ecos 50200 also soon or later present new digital station.
It´s all depends about how much money you do have to spend on the digital system.
If you like to use and drive with Märklins trains,i suggest you wait when the new CS3 did arrived out.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Purellum  
#15 Posted : 22 June 2016 07:38:46(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

DB Fan, how many trains are you planning to run on your layout ?

You might consider starting with a much smaller controller.

A ( Or two ) Mobile Station ( MS2 ) could be a good start.

You could the later upgrade on controllers; but if you choose MS2, you are "stuck" with Märklin,
since you can use them with a CS2 or CS3; but not with an Ecos.

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
Offline Dave Banks  
#16 Posted : 22 June 2016 13:14:45(UTC)
Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,026
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
The CS2 had to be posted back to Germany at my own cost & those in Australia know all to well how much it costs to send a item of that size insured & registered to Europe. That is what I mean by costing heaps. Was over AUD100.00 back then & postage was not refunded.
D.A.Banks
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Dave Banks
Offline DB Fan  
#17 Posted : 22 June 2016 16:29:38(UTC)
DB Fan

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2016(UTC)
Posts: 265
Location: Colorado
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
in your case it may not differ as you intend to go from analog to digital, other wise I would have suggested with the ECOS you can connect your mobile station 1 and 6021 or 6020 and therefore use these components in conjunction with the ECoS.
I've bought a few ECoS link terminals and these will be placed around the layout so I can use my 4 mobile stations 1 at various points.

John


I ordered a digital starter set with ms 2 and a mfx engine with sound. I'm planing to upgrade my analog engines to digital. I still have some nice engines when I was planing a dc layout and wanted to see if I can convert them to 3 rail dcc. It looks more and more that I'm leaning toward the ecos. Thanks John.

Robert
Offline DB Fan  
#18 Posted : 22 June 2016 16:37:47(UTC)
DB Fan

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2016(UTC)
Posts: 265
Location: Colorado
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

DB Fan, how many trains are you planning to run on your layout ?

You might consider starting with a much smaller controller.

A ( Or two ) Mobile Station ( MS2 ) could be a good start.

You could the later upgrade on controllers; but if you choose MS2, you are "stuck" with Märklin,
since you can use them with a CS2 or CS3; but not with an Ecos.

Per.

Cool


I'm starting with a MS2 starter set what should arrive shortly. The size of the layout will be about 18 x 15 feet. At the moment I have a simple 4x14 table top layout that I'm using with m track to try out the different items and to service my engines that I have at the moment. Will try to post some pictures next week. I would like a layout that I can run at least 4 engines and at the same time do some switching .
Robert
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by DB Fan
Offline Hackcell  
#19 Posted : 23 June 2016 02:10:23(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
I've just ordered a 50200 from ESU. Let's see how it goes.

Concerning the CS3, it pisses me off the fact that old style boosters aren't supported. So, if I have a 5 boosters layout, do I have to replace the whole thing??? F* that, even if I had the money to do it right away.
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Hackcell
Offline Dave Banks  
#20 Posted : 23 June 2016 07:10:36(UTC)
Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,026
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
Good on you. You will be happy with the Ecos 50200. One thing, I would suggest you do not use batteries that is normally used in these units unless you remember to change them once a year. Not changing them leads to disaster with battery acid leaking. Just hold the stop button down for a few seconds & all data will be saved. I learnt the hard way.
D.A.Banks
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Dave Banks
Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#21 Posted : 23 June 2016 09:54:06(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by: DaveB Go to Quoted Post
Good on you. You will be happy with the Ecos 50200. One thing, I would suggest you do not use batteries that is normally used in these units unless you remember to change them once a year. Not changing them leads to disaster with battery acid leaking. Just hold the stop button down for a few seconds & all data will be saved. I learnt the hard way.

I was under the impression that if you leave unplugged for while you will loose everything without the batteries. Rechargeable ones are less likely to leak at least for many years. It still pays of to back up somewhere else any programmed stuff you may have.
Offline Dave Banks  
#22 Posted : 23 June 2016 10:28:14(UTC)
Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,026
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
I was under the impression that if you leave unplugged for while you will loose everything without the batteries. Rechargeable ones are less likely to leak at least for many years. It still pays of to back up somewhere else any programmed stuff you may have.


So Long as you hold the stop button down until it says you may now unplug your unit all is well. I have never used any batteries of any description & all my data is as safe as houses & has been for years.
In a nutshell I am a happy Ecos owner. Naturally I have my system backed up for that "oops moment" as I am sure most would do. Nev Williams "Pink Pinny" was instrumental in me making that choice & I have never looked back.

D.A.Banks
Offline river6109  
#23 Posted : 23 June 2016 11:21:31(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
any idea how to back up the data ?
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline H0  
#24 Posted : 23 June 2016 12:19:32(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
any idea how to back up the data?
The batteries are needed during the shutdown only, they are not needed after the shutdown.
You don't need batteries when shutting down before turning off power from the main.

You can backup data to the PC using the browser UI of the ECoS.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline nevw  
#25 Posted : 23 June 2016 22:10:40(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
Depends on what you want, I had a CS in the early days, lasted 30 minutes and shut down. sent it back and got an Ecos. I like its features and very happy.

Over the years ECOS has got to a stage and is very stable, has been no updates to fix bugs for some time.
Like the powered throttles for one. down side, no USB Port.
The CS has many ups and downs and has many updates, some to fix bugs , some to add new features like MFX+, and the virtual Cabin.
dont like the throttle control, the faster you spin it the slower the speed increase
CS is slightly easier to update.
SO it comes down to personal choice.
IMHO best way to get a CS is to buy a Mega Start Set.

N
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Offline clapcott  
#26 Posted : 23 June 2016 22:24:19(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: DaveB Go to Quoted Post
I was under the impression that if you leave unplugged for while you will loose everything without the batteries.


I believe this is partially correct. However it does not apply to "everything"

What the batteries actually DO, is to provides power to the memory that maintains recent configuration changes (e.g. route edits ) until they are transferred to non-volatile memory.

Working memory on any PC device is faster , partially because it does not have to store that information permanently.

What they are FOR , is to allow that unsaved information to be kept in the case of a sudden power loss (e.g. mains switch turned of) of the main unit.
When the unit is turned back on it first checks if there is anything in the battery backed up memory and completes the process of storing it to non-volatile storage.

So, yes, if you did have a sudden power failure AND the batteries were left drain , you would loose the recent changes.

The shutdown process has a primary objective, and that is to flush these unsaved data before turning off
IF enabled, the function that stores locomotive speeds/direction/functions also needs to store that data before removing power.

If it didn't need to do this flush of unsaved data, then you would have no need to perform the shutdown and could happily simple witch power off.
The 6021, for example, was actually designed with a powersupply that had enough residual charge in its capacitors to allow the storage or this (smaller amount of) data - observable by the flashing LED after power is removed.

So the question now becomes "what is a recent change?".

Any configuration changes WILL eventually get saved to non-volatile storage, this is a little variable depending on what else is happening on the layout that the controller is having to deal with, but it will be in the range of seconds to minutes and not minutes to hours.

So if all you are doing is running your trains and , have not changed a turnout for a couple of minutes (or can tolerate the odd one being out of sync with the state reported in the controller) you do not need batteries.
Peter
Offline clapcott  
#27 Posted : 23 June 2016 22:32:03(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
... Concerning the CS3, it pisses me off the fact that old style boosters aren't supported....


And I berate the fact that I cannot restore a game off my 8" floppy.
What is your point ?
Peter
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by clapcott
Online xxup  
#28 Posted : 23 June 2016 23:30:32(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
I think he has a fair point. Why shouldn't a 6017 be supported by CS3? All it does is repeat a signal to another part of the layout. It is true that you can't register a mFx loco in a 6017 boosted zone, but at least you can run your trains through it.. Let's not also forget that not everyone runs a mFx/DCC layout - there is probably a fair market that has an older controller like an Intellibox running MM protocol only with a stack of old boosters and they just want to replace it with is a CS3. If anything this oversight will drive customers away from CS3.
Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by xxup
Offline Hackcell  
#29 Posted : 24 June 2016 03:10:58(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
... Concerning the CS3, it pisses me off the fact that old style boosters aren't supported....


And I berate the fact that I cannot restore a game off my 8" floppy.
What is your point ?


I wonder what's the real technical reason to "suggest" users to dump their 6017 / LDT DB-2 boosters. What if I use it to control DCC light signals? What about these who doesn't care about mfx+? I've seen layouts with 6 or 7 boosters (which is a lot around here). The owners of some of it were excited about the CS3 until they realize they may have to change all of their boosters and trafos.

If M wants to keep making money, they have to care about the old, loyal customers; not to start a fight by "diplomatically forcing them" to overhaul their whole power system just to get a new central station. Offer them a new product with backwards capabilities for their current stuff. If a booster was 50 dollars each, I think almost nobody would mind about the change, but (booster + trafo) x current amount of old style boosters it's a non despicable amount of money. M will lose the change to sell a few extra hundred of CS3's because of that.


Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#30 Posted : 24 June 2016 03:30:20(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
It's possible that the CS3 is not aimed at the folks Adrian refers to. Marklin are under no obligation to maintain any backwards compatibility with legacy equipment, although up to now they have done a good job in doing so.

Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
If M wants to keep making money, they have to care about the old, loyal customers


While this might be a warm fuzzy romantic idea of the honourable manufacturer looking after their long time customers, the hard reality is that they don't have to do this and will only do so if they can make money from it. Given that it is more than 10 years since the 6021/6017 series of equipment was superceded, folks have had more than enough time to upgrade, and those that haven't probably never intended to anyway!

Sony do not provide backwards compatibility with their PS3 / PS4 game consoles, so the fact that Marklin has provided backwards compatibility for over 10 years shows that they do care about their long time customers, but there comes a time when everyone must move on.

Tell me, are you still using the same computer / operating system you were using 10 years ago?
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#31 Posted : 24 June 2016 03:43:46(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: nevw Go to Quoted Post
...... sent it back and got an Ecos.


Which you then sold to me.....WinkWink. Nev did buy a new 50200 colour screen Ecos though.
Offline H0  
#32 Posted : 24 June 2016 07:31:04(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Given that it is more than 10 years since the 6021/6017 series of equipment was superceded [...]
The 6017 booster last appeared in the 2009/2010 catalogue.
Remember that the 60173 could not be used with M track and the 6017 was the recommended booster for CS2 users with M track.
The 60174 that can be used with M track appeared in the 2010/2011 catalogue.

BTW: The 60172 booster first appeared in the 2005 catalogue - more than 10 years ago. First deliveries were expected for 2006. LOL
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#33 Posted : 24 June 2016 07:48:58(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Surprise, surprise, Tom's being pedantic again! Yes I know that items were delayed, but the whys and wherefores of that bit of history aren't relevant to this discussion.
Offline Goofy  
#34 Posted : 24 June 2016 08:10:53(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Surprise, surprise, Tom's being pedantic again! Yes I know that items were delayed, but the whys and wherefores of that bit of history aren't relevant to this discussion.


Because of this system perhaps??
www.stayathome.ch/images2/maerklin_cs_system.jpg

Tom did just verified about the system and which is best for the TS.
I believe Ecos 50200 win the race,because since Märklin did start new digital system there has been a lot of products but it´s exaggerating the connections according to the diagram.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#35 Posted : 24 June 2016 08:31:57(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Because of this system perhaps??


No, not that. Tom was referring to the timeline of the introduction of the CS1 and its various components, which were supposed to replace the 6021 generation of components. Because of delays with introducing capabilities and components (remember that the CS1 in its original v1.3 hardware configuration did not have a 6017 booster connector/interface), the system as a whole did not have all components available until about 5 or 6 years ago, despite being announced 10+ years ago. Doesn't make any difference to my point though.
Offline H0  
#36 Posted : 24 June 2016 09:11:37(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
The 60172 never hit the shelves, the 60173 could not be used with the M track. Until the 60174 hit the shelves, the 6017 was the recommended booster for CS2 owners with M track layouts.
The booster 6017 was recommended for M track users with CS2, but cannot be used with CS3. At this point Märklin gave up backward compatibility.

For some people this will make the transition to the CS3 quite expensive.

Sorry for being pedantic, but about 7 years is not "more than 10 years".
Despite being announced more than 10 years ago, the 60172 never came. It wouldn't work with the CS2 anyway.

The 6017 became obsolete for CS2 users when the 60174 was announced, but remained the only Märklin option for 6021 and 60212 users.
Things would be different if the 60173 would have been compatible with M track. Would have saved them from offering free upgrades to 60174 boosters ...


New systems take years until they reach maturity and completeness.
I think that ECoS and CS2 are equally mature and and complete. The CS3 uses the same hardware extensions as the CS2 (with a different colour), so hardware is complete. The maturity of the software can be judged when the units are shipped later this year.
But it seems CS3 is no option for the thread starter.
OTOH there are users who bought a CS2 in the last 9 months and who now regret it since the CS3 was announced.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Goofy  
#37 Posted : 24 June 2016 09:43:33(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
I think TS do a mistake to get one CS2 or Ecos.
Both of them are now old system and now when Märklin did present CS3,i´m pretty sure ESU with the Ecos 50200 will also start same way by present a new central station next year?
No Tom...both CS2 and the Ecos is not complete system,since they still can upgrades which also means they are not ready complete system to use.
With the new CS3 you will have same process like the old CS2 by upgrades program.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline biedmatt  
#38 Posted : 24 June 2016 12:03:02(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
No Tom...both CS2 and the Ecos is not complete system,since they still can upgrades which also means they are not ready complete system to use.


Anders, do you consider software revision which include upgrades of functionality as evidence these system are not complete? Must we then wait for new features only when these manufacturers release a new model? I mentioned above the VNC feature added to the ECoS. One which adds a lot of functionality to the hardware. So in your thinking, ESU should have released a new model and forced me to buy a new system just so I could use my iPad? If these companies operated in such a manner I believe every customer would go ape sh*t at the lack of support.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by biedmatt
H0
Offline biedmatt  
#39 Posted : 24 June 2016 12:08:35(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

Sorry for being pedantic, but about 7 years is not "more than 10 years".


David, I have to agree with Tom on this point. You give a time line for equipment age as a reason why it may not be compatible with the CS3, but your time line is flawed and incorrect.

Damn iPad wouldn't let me copy and then paste this post into my previous post. Guess I'll have to buy the next model for several hundreds of dollars to get that function.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#40 Posted : 24 June 2016 13:54:06(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
So its 7 years instead of 10+ years - so what?? That does not alter the crux of my point (which seems to have got lost in the chatter), which was compared to other tech manufacturers (Sony, and others) Marklin has provided some backward compatibility for a number of years (even if it wasn't as long as I first suggested).

So there will be no CS3 backwards capability with 6017 boosters - such is the reality of electronic products, at some stage the manufacturer has to move forward. We see this in the tech world so often - try restoring from Peter's 8" floppy disk, and even if you could restore could you actually play the game? Computers and operating systems have moved on, so has Marklin with the Central Station.

Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
The 6017..... remained the only Märklin option for.......60212 users.


I'm not sure whether the ESU Ecosboost worked with the v2 60212 CS1 (I might find out in a week's time when my new v2 CS1 arrives), but if it did that was the other option.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
Offline river6109  
#41 Posted : 24 June 2016 14:07:46(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Hi, it took me more than 5 years to decide which system to use and I read and looked several explanations how one can use the old 6021 system with the new digital system (both ECoS and CS, I came to the conclusion and this was years ago, because I've already switched from 60901 decoders to ESU decoders, bought a lokprogrammer and found out, the additional wires or sets are not needed to add either the 6021/6020 or the MS 1, there had been also changes to the protocol when using the ECoS. with other words I found it more user friendly than the CS. I think one has to look at it as a whole package and not just the option between CS and ECoS, Märklin has come a long way by introducing a loco programmer for their decoders and the quality of their sound decoders has also very much improved, I also said it before I'm no fan of the mfx system, I like to fiddle around with CV's and other options such as lights.

My preference doesn't mean everybody else likes to do the same thing.

I think ESU has to improve in years to come to be compatible as ZIMO has gained ground in the decoder market for their functionality and quality but again one has to decide which way to go and unless ZIMO comes up with loco programmer I will not be buying ZIMO decoders or their Digital system and unfortunately ESU has lost their market with Roco and I assume Fleischmann.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline DB Fan  
#42 Posted : 24 June 2016 16:56:17(UTC)
DB Fan

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2016(UTC)
Posts: 265
Location: Colorado
First I want to say thank you to everybody for the input. I'm going to get the ESU ecos system. Thank you John. Your info is the closest to what I have in mind. I like the options I would get with that system and the ESU sound decoders. Thanks.
Robert
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by DB Fan
Offline Loadmaster  
#43 Posted : 25 June 2016 06:04:40(UTC)
Loadmaster

United States   
Joined: 03/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 898
Location: So Cal
Can I throw a monkey wrench into this discussion? I recently read that Vissmann has their unit called "The Controller".
Now makes the decision triple trouble.

Robert
HOac and Z scale running SBB/BLS Era IV-V
Offline H0  
#44 Posted : 25 June 2016 08:28:43(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
That does not alter the crux of my point (which seems to have got lost in the chatter), which was compared to other tech manufacturers (Sony, and others) Marklin has provided some backward compatibility for a number of years (even if it wasn't as long as I first suggested).
A booster is a rather simple amplifier.
I can connect my 5 year old CD player to a tube radio from the '50s and they work fine, using the tube radio as an amplifier. The tube radio from the '50s works fine with external speakers from the '70s.

I have the cheap Märklin boosters 6604 and 66045 - those can be used with the CS3.
IMO it should take a few resistors and less than 5 transistors to connect a 6017 to a CS3, at least one-way, i.e. no overload feedback from the booster.
OK, they decided to save a few cents by dropping the 6017 connector. So they save big money, but lose some customer loyalty. Their decision. There are always some trade-offs.

And yes: the ECoSboost works with the CS1 - at least theoretically, didn't test it practically. So customers can choose between new ESU items or second-hand Märklin items.
But ECoSboost does not work with CS2 or CS3.

Would be nice if there was one CAN standard for MRR as an alternative to LocoNet.
But there are three incompatible proprietary CAN standards - and I shy away from investing big money into any of these proprietary busses.

If my ECoS 60212 should fail beyond repair, I would probably buy another ECoS.


Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I think TS do a mistake to get one CS2 or Ecos.
Both of them are now old system and now when Märklin did present CS3,i´m pretty sure ESU with the Ecos 50200 will also start same way by present a new central station next year?
The ECoS is what Windows 10 is not: fast and fluent.
Version 3 made is much faster, version 4 made it faster again.
Märklin decided to stick to their sub-optimal code and switch to faster hardware to get better user experience.

Will there be a new ECoS with multi-touch? I don't know. I can see some advantages, but nothing I must have.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline Goofy  
#45 Posted : 25 June 2016 09:16:57(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: DB Fan Go to Quoted Post
First I want to say thank you to everybody for the input. I'm going to get the ESU ecos system. Thank you John. Your info is the closest to what I have in mind. I like the options I would get with that system and the ESU sound decoders. Thanks.
Robert


I hope you will be happy with this digital system.
ESU produce nice digital components and the locomotives too.
I´m not sure if ESU are easy to get in the US market.
However there is google to find where you can buy theirs products.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#46 Posted : 25 June 2016 09:22:22(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
No Tom...both CS2 and the Ecos is not complete system,since they still can upgrades which also means they are not ready complete system to use.


Anders, do you consider software revision which include upgrades of functionality as evidence these system are not complete? Must we then wait for new features only when these manufacturers release a new model? I mentioned above the VNC feature added to the ECoS. One which adds a lot of functionality to the hardware. So in your thinking, ESU should have released a new model and forced me to buy a new system just so I could use my iPad? If these companies operated in such a manner I believe every customer would go ape sh*t at the lack of support.


Sorry but you are mistakes.
If you really want system works everything,then there is no reason to upgrades all the times.
And yes you have sometimes bugs too and have to wait until responsible do fix it.
That´s way i mean not complete system.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#47 Posted : 25 June 2016 09:56:49(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Sorry but you are mistakes.
If you really want system works everything,then there is no reason to upgrades all the times.
And yes you have sometimes bugs too and have to wait until responsible do fix it.
There are different aspects. ESU publish version x.y.0, a fortnight later it is x.y.1 with bug fixes, a month later it is x.y.2 with more bug fixes.
Software nowadays is so complex that it cannot be bug-free right from the start. I usually wait a fortnight before upgrading my 60212.

Version 2.0.4 was incomplete.
Version 3.1 was fast and complete. Later versions made it better and faster, but upgrading was optional.
The user could read the changelog before installing - and decide whether to install or not. For happy 3.1 users there was no need to upgrade. Well, until 4.0 came ...

It seems your definition of "complete" is different from what the majority here understands as "complete".

The CS2 is not complete - support for the SX socket is still missing. It will never be "complete" if you wait for SX support, but apart from some nasty bugs that are around for a long time, it is a stable and useful system. Not always "fast and fluent", sometimes counter-intuitive, but it works.
I'm afraid there won't be any updates in 2017 or later, so most likely the need to upgrade will end soon.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Goofy  
#48 Posted : 25 June 2016 11:02:23(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post


I'm afraid there won't be any updates in 2017 or later, so most likely the need to upgrade will end soon.


Then in case...finally complete system when no more upgrades presents.
I´m pretty sure ESU do same way.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#49 Posted : 25 June 2016 13:08:47(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
[I can connect my 5 year old CD player to a tube radio from the '50s and they work fine, using the tube radio as an amplifier. The tube radio from the '50s works fine with external speakers from the '70s.


Most tube amps from that period only output 5 watts or so of power (your tube radio maybe only 1 or 2 watts), so you would need to match them with a pair of high efficiency speakers - probably most speakers produced in the '70s would be OK. My Celestion SL6 speakers from 1981 probably wouldn't match, given their 84db/W/m sensitivity.

Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
OK, they decided to save a few cents by dropping the 6017 connector.


You may be able to use a 6017 booster with a CS2 connected as a remote to a CS3+, but that would be a rather expensive way of doing it.

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
No Tom...both CS2 and the Ecos is not complete system,since they still can upgrades which also means they are not ready complete system to use.


By that criteria, no Windows, Linux or Mac OSX computer, iThingy, Android phone / tablet has ever been a complete system..................yet people still buy and use them. Which makes that statement rather ludicrous!

Originally Posted by: Loadmaster Go to Quoted Post
Can I throw a monkey wrench into this discussion? I recently read that Vissmann has their unit called "The Controller". Now makes the decision triple trouble.


The Viessman Commander does not support the mfx / M4 protocol which puts it at a disadvantage for controlling a Marklin layout.
Offline Goofy  
#50 Posted : 25 June 2016 13:29:36(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
[I can connect my 5 year old CD player to a tube radio from the '50s and they work fine, using the tube radio as an amplifier. The tube radio from the '50s works fine with external speakers from the '70s.


Most tube amps from that period only output 5 watts or so of power (your tube radio maybe only 1 or 2 watts), so you would need to match them with a pair of high efficiency speakers - probably most speakers produced in the '70s would be OK. My Celestion SL6 speakers from 1981 probably wouldn't match, given their 84db/W/m sensitivity.

Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
OK, they decided to save a few cents by dropping the 6017 connector.


You may be able to use a 6017 booster with a CS2 connected as a remote to a CS3+, but that would be a rather expensive way of doing it.

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
No Tom...both CS2 and the Ecos is not complete system,since they still can upgrades which also means they are not ready complete system to use.


By that criteria, no Windows, Linux or Mac OSX computer, iThingy, Android phone / tablet has ever been a complete system..................yet people still buy and use them. Which makes that statement rather ludicrous!

Originally Posted by: Loadmaster Go to Quoted Post
Can I throw a monkey wrench into this discussion? I recently read that Vissmann has their unit called "The Controller". Now makes the decision triple trouble.


The Viessman Commander does not support the mfx / M4 protocol which puts it at a disadvantage for controlling a Marklin layout.


Not truth! Viessmann did present new protocol in the commander with the mfx.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Users browsing this topic
3 Pages123>
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 1.587 seconds.