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Offline baggio  
#1 Posted : 30 May 2016 03:47:15(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Do you think it was wise by Marklin to drop giving customers the option of buying a purely analogue loco at a lower price as is common in 2 rail DC?

One can buy a 2 rail Roco loco in a digital or analogue version. The former is about CAD $100 to CAD$150 MORE. The same is true of all 2 Rail manufacturers as far as I know.

I gave up on 2 Rail digital because of this saving and am very happy I did. If I really need/want some digital effects I buy a Marklin loco where I have no choice.

My view is that Marklin would have done better in giving us a choice and offer an analogue product to those who want to save money and a digital product to those who want something more at a higher cost.

Seeing just how high the price of Marklin locos are, an analogue choice would increase sales for Marklin significantly.

What do you think?

Edited by user 31 May 2016 01:17:58(UTC)  | Reason: Added "MORE" on line 2 - was intended to be there all along. Sorry.

Offline xxup  
#2 Posted : 30 May 2016 03:58:44(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
To answer that question, you need an understanding of the proportion of analogue vs digital customers and their related spending with Marklin.. I have no interest in analogue locos, other than older interesting ones that I convert to digital..

Perhaps a poll with:
- I only use digital locos on my layout
- I only use analogue locos on my layout
- I use a mix on my layout
- I don't own a layout
Adrian
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Offline river6109  
#3 Posted : 30 May 2016 05:21:29(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,635
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I'm looking it from a different perspective: I don't buy digital mfx locos from Märklin and any other digital loco I take out the digital component, where as with Roco I can buy an analog loco with a digital circuit board provided. so this way it gives me a choice of either having a Roco digital or analogue loco (depends on the sale price).. the same goes for HAG loco I buy them DC analogue and convert them to digital and do all my conversion including SBB light change myself. and going down that path there are also Liliput analogue locos for sale.
for instance I've bought 2 Märklin Hobby locos and will convert them to my own digital choice., the options Adrian expressed (poll) none of the choice I use is mentioned and it could be a unique choice I take on board

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 30 May 2016 07:35:54(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Do you think it was wise by Marklin to drop giving customers the option of buying a purely analogue loco at a lower price as is common in 2 rail DC?
Yes, that was wise.

The Märklin three-rail AC system has many disadvantages. AC operation makes analogue locos expensive. At one stage analogue locos no longer were cheaper than digital locos (that also allow analogue operation).

DC operation is much simpler and allows cheaper analogue locos.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline RayF  
#5 Posted : 30 May 2016 09:47:29(UTC)
RayF

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Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Märklin went through a phase of offering delta locos alongside full digital versions. The delta versions were cheaper and aimed at the analogue market but could also be used in digital.

I thought at the time that this was a good idea, and bought several of the delta locos at a time when I was less comfortable financially. For some reason Märklin discontinued this practise. I guess the cost of producing two of each outweighed the advantages.

There's no such thing as a simple and cheap AC loco. The reversing unit makes it more expensive than a basic digital loco.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 30 May 2016 12:12:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
It is simple to make analogue two-rail locos (you need nothing for the motor, just two diodes for lights that change with the direction).

But Trix stopped offering analogue DC locos completely or at least almost completely.
To my surprise they announced an analogue BR 120.1 in the 2016 new items brochure - but silently dropped it from the product database a little later, so I assume it was cancelled.

It seems digital locos, especially sound locos, have a better profit margin for MäTrix.

It seems people with limited MRR budgets are not the primary target group for new Märklin. But they still offer starter sets with analogue locos and analogue controllers.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#7 Posted : 30 May 2016 12:46:34(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
A brand new analogue roco's for CAD 100 -150 is not going to be a top model as I am sure a nice Roco steamer would cost several times that, digital or not.

There are thousands and thousands of pure analogue and digital Marklin that can be used in analogue systems all of them available second hand at very reasonable prices and many like new.

I think if all the train manufacturers close down, a whole lifetime still wouldn't be long enough to stop finding exciting new locos.
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Offline Roland  
#8 Posted : 30 May 2016 17:35:02(UTC)
Roland

Canada   
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 332
Location: Toronto, Canada
I grew up with analog Marklin but when I decided I wanted to start my own collection a few years ago, I decided to go with digital. The advantages of digital far out-weighed those of analog for me. So I do feel Marklin made the right move.
My Layout Build | Märklin CS3+ | K-track | Merkur | Viessmann | LDT | iTrain | Modeling DB + SBB
Offline kiwiAlan  
#9 Posted : 30 May 2016 18:04:32(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post

There's no such thing as a simple and cheap AC loco. The reversing unit makes it more expensive than a basic digital loco.


Yes, the cost of fabricating the reversing unit and field coils would soon match the price of the electronics used in digital locos. Even the cost of the analogue reverse unit fitted to items like the Michelin Railbus that have a DC motor is not that cheap because of the use of a relay - an item of reasonably significant cost in itself once you start getting into the miniature ones required for the small space available.

Offline witzlerh  
#10 Posted : 30 May 2016 18:59:59(UTC)
witzlerh

Canada   
Joined: 25/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 417
Location: Sherwood Park, AB, Canada
I think that the 2 rail market will go the same way as Marklin did.

Why have 2 inventory items for the same lok (analog or digital)? in the 2000's when Marklin did offer analogue or digital and a customer saw a lok in the store and grabbed it,,,only to realize that it would not run on their layout because it was analogue only.

The new basic decoders have no problem working with raw analogue so it is far better to design and build a lok that can take digital all the way. The question then becomes sound or no sound.

I follow the 2 rail market, there is still a large analogue market but it is shrinking...the bet is which manufacturer is going to be next to only offer digital loks. Most digital loks have no problem running on analogue. There will still be a choice between sound or no sound because of significant price difference...but even the new sound equipped decoders will allow limited sound in analogue operation....

The cost between an analogue lok and a basic digital lok is about $20 USD..or even less...not worth making a separate inventory PN once you have 70% of your customers being digital users...which is what I am thinking that Marklin already has but the 2 rail market is not quite there yet.
Harald
CS2 DB & Canadian Era 3-6
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 30 May 2016 19:57:41(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: witzlerh Go to Quoted Post
Most digital loks have no problem running on analogue.
Some two-rail users prefer analogue locos without decoder - they say they operate better.
Free choice of decoder is another advantage. Trix H0 locos come without RailCom, without SX, without ABC braking, ...

I wish Märklin would sell three-rail locos without decoders.

Digital locos can be used in analogue mode, but require a digital controller to update the settings. So when analogue users have to buy digital locos, then there is pressure to also get a controller to configure the locos to your needs.

Digital locos can have sound in analogue operation - but in most cases it takes a digital controller to turn the sound on or off.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline mike c  
#12 Posted : 30 May 2016 20:01:48(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Märklin went through a phase of offering delta locos alongside full digital versions. The delta versions were cheaper and aimed at the analogue market but could also be used in digital.

I thought at the time that this was a good idea, and bought several of the delta locos at a time when I was less comfortable financially. For some reason Märklin discontinued this practise. I guess the cost of producing two of each outweighed the advantages.

There's no such thing as a simple and cheap AC loco. The reversing unit makes it more expensive than a basic digital loco.


The change in the offerings came about after the introduction of the modern decoder (Lokpilot, etc) with PC board socket. When Maerklin was making models with the original Motorola decoders, the models were still operating on AC power with a DC digital signal hidden in the track voltage. The DC digital signal told the decoder what to do with the AC power from the tracks. Maerklin introduced the Delta circuit to allow for a basic model that could be used on either analog or digital layouts (Delta or full digital).
The new generation decoders converted the track AC to DC and the motor and lights were operating on DC, meaning that the motor magnet had to be DC compatible. This basically resulted in a Maerklin (3 Rail AC) lok being a DC locomotive, but with uninsulated wheelsets and AC slider. A basic Motorola decoder assumed the function of the electronic reverse unit in analog operation and was necessary, so most companies offering 3 Rail AC abandoned the option of analog
in favour of a model with decoder included.

In DC, the model would work on an analog layout with or without a decoder. With the decoder in AC models acting as reverse unit, it was not possible to sell a model without a decoder. The end result was that AC modellers usually had to pay a slight premium over DC models (for the basic decoder). For digital models, the prices were usually similar (AC or DC/with or without sound).

There are some shops that offer AC models with your choice of decoder. You don't have to take the OEM decoder that comes with the model. If you want MFX or Sound, they will swap the decoder, add the features, but you will have to pay the difference.

Look at the basic Lokpilot or Zimo today as basically an electronic reverse unit that incorporates a basic decoder, because that is what it is.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 30 May 2016 20:39:45(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
When Maerklin was making models with the original Motorola decoders, the models were still operating on AC power with a DC digital signal hidden in the track voltage.
Nope.
The same CU 6021 and the same Delta Controller work for both old and new decoders. The track voltage didn't change a bit when they moved from DIP switches to programmable decoders.

Even the first Märklin decoders convert the track voltage to DC and feed the motor with DC.
The old motors with field coil are AC/DC motors and they work fine with DC.
Motors with permanent magnet will work with DC only - but that's no problem either. The 3311 from 1988 already had a DC motor.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline baggio  
#14 Posted : 31 May 2016 01:15:28(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: Iamnotthecrazyone Go to Quoted Post
A brand new analogue roco's for CAD 100 -150 is not going to be a top model


I agree with you there. I did make a mistake in my sentence on point Blushing I meant to say that this was the SAVING from a digital to an analogue.

Take a look at US locos and Roco locos: the digital ones cost at least CAD$100. more and about CAD$150 more for a sound decoder once you factor in the taxes on the extra cost.

In addition, you can still buy US analogue hobby locos that are very nice at a price that makes you smile: less than CAD$100 on sale, taxes included.

To each his own - I am happy about my choice: analogue 2 rail and digital Marklin (no choice there). BigGrin



Offline Eurobahnfan  
#15 Posted : 02 June 2016 23:37:06(UTC)
Eurobahnfan

United States   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 407
Location: Stockton, CA
When I first took the plunge into Maerklin, I went digital all the way. Of course, this was back in the 90s when you had a choice of Delta or Digital, and the price difference between the two was about DM100. With the advances in digital technology, a basic, "bare-bones" digital version is almost a thing of the past... and the $400 (or often more) for a full on digital version makes it difficult for me to justify the expense. As such, most of my recent purchases have been older, analog or early Delta locomotives. I'm currently planning a layout with two separate track plans that will allow for the operation of both types. (Now if I can stockpile enough analog transformers, I'll be fine)
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Offline baggio  
#16 Posted : 03 June 2016 02:44:24(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: Eurobahnfan Go to Quoted Post
I'm currently planning a layout with two separate track plans that will allow for the operation of both types.


Why not make one of the two "types" a 2 rail layout? Have both Marklin AND 2 rail. Lots of choice and fun.

Use Roco, Piko and Walthers, among others, in straight analogue DC. You will not regret it, I promise, and you can buy a nice hobby loco NEW from Walthers for around USD$50 on sale. And these locos fly! BigGrin ThumpUp
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Offline RayF  
#17 Posted : 03 June 2016 08:40:53(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
My layout allows for operation with either analogue or digital control at the flick of a switch. When I went digital I incorporated this facility, which only involves a small amount of extra wiring, so that I could run some of my older analogue locos.

In practice I am in digital control for most of the time, but as I cycle through all my stock, changing the trains on a weekly basis, I get to my analogue locos once every eight months or so, and that is when I "flick the switch".

At the moment I have over 140 digital locos and 8 analogue classics. I enjoy the two weeks I spend with these old ladies on the tracks, but to be honest it's a relief when I power up my MS2 again at the end of it! My analogue operation relies on the use of isolated track sections to enable me to have up to 4 trains on the layout at the same time, but when I go back to digital I just switch all sections "on" at the same time and enjoy the ability to control all the locos separately.

My current layout configuration allows me up to 8 locos on the track in digital mode. I can operate two medium length trains (8-10 freight wagons or 4-5 bogie coaches), two shorter trains (4-5 wagons or 2 bogie coaches) and two very short trains (2-3 wagons or small coaches, or a railcar or railbus) and additionally two locos stabled in short sidings. This is twice as many trains as I can run in analogue mode unless I chop up the layout into more sections.

Because of the greater flexibility of digital locos I have converted many of my old locos which were originally analogue to digital. Using the most basic Marklin or ESU decoder kits I can generally convert a loco for less than 30 British pounds, or about 35 Euros or 40 US dollars. I think this extra investment is quite justified for the added enjoyment one can get after conversion.

You don't have to spend $400 dollars on a new loco with all the bells and whistles, but you don't have to limit yourself to analogue either. Apart from buying older locos and converting them with cheap kits as I mentioned you can also get some very nice brand new hobby locos from Marklin, Piko and some others for less than $200.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Eurobahnfan  
#18 Posted : 03 June 2016 18:27:40(UTC)
Eurobahnfan

United States   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 407
Location: Stockton, CA
Good points Ray... I've thought about converting some of my older loco's, but the collector gene in me says to leave them as they are. I've considered the "flick of a switch" method you mention as well. Since I'm still in the planning phase, I'll look into that a lot more.
Offline Bones  
#19 Posted : 04 June 2016 14:26:42(UTC)
Bones

Australia   
Joined: 15/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 105
Location: Queensland
Hello Everyone

I put off getting digital loco's because of the cost but I had three of my loco's serviced recently that were analogue and that dreaded bug bear of the analogue loco the sudden flipping of the reverse relay due to spring tension occurred so I have now bitten the bullet and will now slowly convert all my locos to digital

I am purchasing a set with a controller and digital loco sometime next week hope fully wednesday
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RayFGLI
Offline Bones  
#20 Posted : 04 June 2016 14:31:58(UTC)
Bones

Australia   
Joined: 15/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 105
Location: Queensland
Hello Everyone

I put off getting digital loco's because of the cost but I had three of my loco's serviced recently that were analogue and that dreaded bug bear of the analogue loco the sudden flipping of the reverse relay due to spring tension occurred so I have now bitten the bullet and will now slowly convert all my locos to digital

I am purchasing a set with a controller and digital loco sometime next week hopefuly Wednesday
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Offline RayF  
#21 Posted : 04 June 2016 14:55:28(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Eurobahnfan Go to Quoted Post
Good points Ray... I've thought about converting some of my older loco's, but the collector gene in me says to leave them as they are. I've considered the "flick of a switch" method you mention as well. Since I'm still in the planning phase, I'll look into that a lot more.


Hi Steve,

I know what you mean about the older locos, that's why I have around 10 of my locos which will stay analogue.

My personal criterion is that if the loco has independent light bulbs for the headlights instead of a light diffuser then it stays analogue. This means that Marklin locos earlier than 1960 and some of the Primex locos will not get a digital conversion.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Mark_1602  
#22 Posted : 05 June 2016 14:44:57(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: Bones Go to Quoted Post
Hello Everyone

I put off getting digital loco's because of the cost but I had three of my loco's serviced recently that were analogue and that dreaded bug bear of the analogue loco the sudden flipping of the reverse relay due to spring tension occurred so I have now bitten the bullet and will now slowly convert all my locos to digital

I am purchasing a set with a controller and digital loco sometime next week hopefuly Wednesday


Hi,

The problem with spring tension that you mention here can be fixed in a few minutes at no cost. You just need to open the locomotive, bend the metal rod that the spring is attached to left or right with a screwdriver, and test the loco to see the result. Are you giving up on analogue because of that?

Even if a few relays are broken, they can be replaced by new Märklin Delta decoders, which are relatively sturdy and will solve the problem at a low cost to you. Märklin still sells Delta decoders with 80 addresses, and any dealer could put them in for you.

Going digital is expensive, and you're more likely to have problems with decoders than with the old Märklin relays. As a child I used to have 7 analogue Märklin locomotives and a railcar. 6 out of 8 were used intensively on an attic full of dust for years, but I never had a serious problem with a reversing unit. Digital locomotives are much more likely to break down than old analogue ones. Just have a look at all the problems that are discussed on MRR forums. How will you feel if that happens to you?

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline artfull dodger  
#23 Posted : 05 June 2016 15:28:00(UTC)
artfull dodger

United States   
Joined: 31/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 475
Location: Indiana, Kokomo
From my views on this side of the big pond, digital or DCC engines sell much easier than older Analog engines. Be it from Marklin or other 2 rail brands. The local shop orders all its store stock engines with full sound and DCC as this is what the most active modelers are purchasing right now. They want the computer control, the ablity to run their train with thier smart phone(a very popular app localy, can that even be done with M?) There are a few older Analog engines I want, but they will get converted to digital right away. By phasing out analog engines, that is one less item to stock, to have to make a seperate box for, so Marklin saves in logistic costs and production costs for a second version of the model. This frees up thier funds to produce other models we desire. The only local modelers that I know that do not use any kind of digital control are in thier retirement years of life and have no desire to rework thier layout or spend $$ they do not have to convert to digital control. Once that generation passes on, there will be little to no analog control layouts in the future IMHO. Mike
Silly NT's..I have Asperger's Syndrome!!!!
Offline baggio  
#24 Posted : 05 June 2016 16:18:54(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: artfull dodger Go to Quoted Post
... Once that generation passes on, there will be little to no analog control layouts in the future IMHO. Mike


I am not sure how old you are, Mike, but if you are younger than 50, then I think you are in the minority here, and a welcome member at that. BigGrin

The point is, once our generation (the 60+ club) is gone, Marklin and all the other 2 rail manufacturers will have a VERY hard time to break even and will follow us in the great celestial train layout in the sky where trains NEVER break down. Flapper ThumpUp

Mark is absolutely right, going digital is VERY expensive, so before you spend plenty of money in doing so, just think carefully as to what you want to achieve.

Possibly, just so you can see what the digital fuss is all about and whether for you it's the way to go, you can ADD to your layout with a digital starter set or with an inexpensive used MS1 (about US$50.00 or so on E-bay) and couple of economical, used, locos (make sure you get the ones that have an MFX decoder, they are so much easier to use than the cheaper ones).

Also, Marklin digital locos are relatively slow, is that a problem for you?

Finally, digital controllers are COMPLICATED to use (other than the wonderful wireless remote sets that, however need an adjustment on the circuit board to prevent auto shut off after 3 minutes of not pushing any buttons Scared ThumbDown). Do you have the time and patience to learn the digital modus operandi? Just download a manual for the MS1 and for the MS2 from the Internet and you will see what I mean.

Having said that, on an Italian forum I was executed in effigy for daring to dump on digital and accused of liking locos that wind up.ThumpUp Wink

Just my usual 2 cents' worth.

Have a great Sunday, everyone.
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Offline artfull dodger  
#25 Posted : 05 June 2016 16:47:30(UTC)
artfull dodger

United States   
Joined: 31/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 475
Location: Indiana, Kokomo
I am in my early 40's, but I disagree with the hobby passing with the 60+ generation. When I attend the huge "Great Train Expo" held at the state fair grounds or convention centers around the USA, the throng of kids one must deal with to see whats for sale and the layouts is beyond belief. And these are excited kids, packing around the layouts to watch. Not unlike we did at that age so many years ago. While mom and dad may not buy them much in the way of trains, the exposure and interest is there, at a young age. This is where the digital operation is so important. This is what the younger modelers want, ready to run trains with all the digital operation right from the factory. RTR layouts as well such as what Noch produces. What is needed is even more exposure to trains for these kids and their parents. Ads in magazines that parents commonly read, on TV during morning kids programs. Sponsoring shows in various kids cable tv channels. Now I am only able to speak to the USA side of the hobby, I do not know what the European/UK side is doing. But aside from a few high end toy shops and dedicated hobby shops, you do not see trains, even around the holidays. We need to see entry level digital sets in Walmart, Meijers, Cosco and other giant retailers, and not the cheapo battery operated sets(Marklin my world excluded). Some shops cater to the autistic child and kids on the spectrum, along with adults tend to be fixated on trains. Higher functioning folks can operate trains and the lower functioning ones can watch or operate with supervision. My trains have been my escape from a world that feels alien and hostile towards me most of my life. They are my way of calming down and avoiding meltdowns that can be quite violent in my case. I see the next generation of modelers out there every time I display my trains or go to shows that advertise to the general public. Now we need to justify to the parents why they should spend x number of dollers on a toy train, after all, even the most expensive models are just toys when it comes down to it. I feel the hobby will survive, but only the strongest companies and shops will survive. Marklin will be one of those, along with Lionel here in the states. The folks in the hobby know where to get the models, its the newcomers, those not in the hobby yet but with a child that is intrigued by them that does not. The Internet helps, a quick google search will bring up plenty of online shops, like AJCkids here in the states. So we dont even know now many new comers there are, as mom and dad buy the set online, and not at a shop or show. We as modelers just need to keep displaying the trains, talk up the hobby and its positives and less of the complaints. Encourage the younger generation as much as possible, even give a starter set to an interested child at a show. I have done this before. Had a family that stayed around for over 2 hours watching my little Marklin layout run, thier son was fixated on it. I talked to the parents and they just lacked the means to buy him a decent set. They had tried the cheapo set route and the set broke right away. I told them to give me a few min but to stop back by before they left the show. I tried to keep a couple of the little 0-6-0 steamers, a small loop of M track and a couple cheap wagons and power pack in my box of stuff I took to shows. I made up a small loop of track, with the green saddle tank 0-6-0 and 2 low side gondolas the boy could put "stuff" in, along with a power pack. I taped the box shut and gave it to them when they came back around with instructions to wrap it for Christmas(less than a month away at that time). I bet it was a hit that morning. I was just doing my part to help someone get hooked on trains and not turned off by a cheapo set. Not everybody can afford M that wants it. This was the case here. Mike
Silly NT's..I have Asperger's Syndrome!!!!
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Offline baggio  
#26 Posted : 05 June 2016 18:12:23(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: artfull dodger Go to Quoted Post
I was just doing my part to help someone get hooked on trains and not turned off by a cheapo set.


Thank you, Mike, for a very heartfelt post; much appreciated. Smile

I, too, was a victim of little forethought by the manufacturer when the economical, DC, US 2 rail set I bought, very good in most respects, came with couplers that did not couple properly and made the wagons detach from the loco and other wagons. Very frustrating ThumbDown and put me off US trains for a long time. Just recently, I tried to re-tackle this problem and may have found a solution. Incidentally, I found all US trains had this problem. One major store at first even told me there was nothing that could be done....

Given what you said, then you obviously have made up your mind and must go ahead with your digital experience. ThumpUp

Please do not be a stranger here and let us know if you encounter any problems and also how you like what you bought, new or used. We love to hear success stories. BigGrin
Offline artfull dodger  
#27 Posted : 05 June 2016 19:02:22(UTC)
artfull dodger

United States   
Joined: 31/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 475
Location: Indiana, Kokomo
I will be around off and on. This time of year I am busy with my garden railway most of the time. Only on the rainy days do I mess with the indoor trains much. I still enjoy analog, just in a larger scale now. The little HO layout will be digital now. My G scale is all analog with either manual control live steam, or battery power with a simple on/off switch. Less stress and less cost that way. The indoor digital is all done on a budget as well. I applaud those that still use analog control, and have nothing against it, but the digital side is where the future lies. Now back to running trains. Cheers Mike
Silly NT's..I have Asperger's Syndrome!!!!
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Offline Mark_1602  
#28 Posted : 05 June 2016 23:17:39(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: artfull dodger Go to Quoted Post
While mom and dad may not buy them much in the way of trains, the exposure and interest is there, at a young age.
Mike


Hi Mike,

True, the main reason why kids don't have model trains any more is that parents don't want to spend all the money it takes to buy that stuff. A lot of parents can't afford it, as you say. Boys under 10 would love to play with model trains if they could.

In Germany, analogue locomotives still have a future because many people who are interested in MRR have limited financial resources. One German forum that is dedicated to old model trains had over 1,000,000 single visitors last year, up from about 600,000 in 2014. Märklin has been working hard to kill analogue for the last twenty or thirty years, but it's backfired. In the last ten years, many ex-Märklin customers have gone back to the old, reliable models and have stopped buying new Märklin products.

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
Offline artfull dodger  
#29 Posted : 05 June 2016 23:32:30(UTC)
artfull dodger

United States   
Joined: 31/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 475
Location: Indiana, Kokomo
Thats interesting as its the opposite here in the states, atleast in relation to brands other than Marklin. The analog stuff sits till it gets marked way down to where you can make it DCC/Sound equipted for what it did cost at one time. I do agree that there will be a place for analog control for a long time to come. M just needs to put dual model decoders in so it will run in both enviroments. That is what is being done here in the other brands. You dont get full function over the sound, but the model will run in analog mode. Guess just different markets between the USA and Europe. Mike
Silly NT's..I have Asperger's Syndrome!!!!
Offline RayF  
#30 Posted : 06 June 2016 00:11:54(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I don't quite agree with Mark's assessment.

The evidence is that analogue Marklin locomotives get left on the shelves to the point that they are unsellable. I don't think there is a huge market for old analogue locos except for those who are looking for a bargain with a view to conversion to digital. Just trawl through ebay and you find plenty of evidence of this.

I've also gone into several shops where they are still trying to sell 20 year old analogue Marklin models at the same price as a modern digital loco. Of course the older it gets the less likely it will be sold.

The exception is for very old collectable models which fetch high prices because of their rarity, but these models are more likely to end up in a glass case than running on a layout.

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline baggio  
#31 Posted : 06 June 2016 00:39:45(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: artfull dodger Go to Quoted Post
M just needs to put dual model decoders in so it will run in both enviroments.


To be clear, Mike, all modern digital locos M makes run in both analogue and digital, what M calls "conventional operation". Sometimes, however, they run better in digital. Of course, no sound in analogue.
Offline artfull dodger  
#32 Posted : 06 June 2016 01:13:47(UTC)
artfull dodger

United States   
Joined: 31/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 475
Location: Indiana, Kokomo
I sort of figured the M lok's would run in both modes. Only differance being no sound in Analog on a M lok. The other brands I have seen stateside with DCC/Sound in them, also run better in digital mode over analog. Espicialy with back EMF to help regulate slow speed performane and maintaining speed up and down grades on a layout. Guess its the best of times, plenty of vintage non digital for sale thru ebay and other online sites, or newer digital stuff for those that want that. Mike
Silly NT's..I have Asperger's Syndrome!!!!
Offline Goofy  
#33 Posted : 06 June 2016 01:20:53(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Do you think it was wise by Marklin to drop giving customers the option of buying a purely analogue loco at a lower price as is common in 2 rail DC?

One can buy a 2 rail Roco loco in a digital or analogue version. The former is about CAD $100 to CAD$150 MORE. The same is true of all 2 Rail manufacturers as far as I know.

I gave up on 2 Rail digital because of this saving and am very happy I did. If I really need/want some digital effects I buy a Marklin loco where I have no choice.

My view is that Marklin would have done better in giving us a choice and offer an analogue product to those who want to save money and a digital product to those who want something more at a higher cost.

Seeing just how high the price of Marklin locos are, an analogue choice would increase sales for Marklin significantly.

What do you think?


2 or 3 rail analogue...it doesn´t matter.
The good choice is to have better sound decoder and it´s ESU.
If Märklin did offer analogue locomotives with the digital schnittstelle,i would buy theirs locomotive and install ESU sound decoder.
No matter of the cost by shop sound decoder as accessories.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#34 Posted : 06 June 2016 07:58:15(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Of course, no sound in analogue.
Most sound locos, even Märklin, also support sound in analogue operation.

Originally Posted by: artfull dodger Go to Quoted Post
Espicialy with back EMF to help regulate slow speed performane and maintaining speed up and down grades on a layout.
With modern decoders, back EMF and acceleration delay are also used for analogue operation. Braking delay is also supported, but requires gentle throttle operation.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline baggio  
#35 Posted : 06 June 2016 14:24:27(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Most sound locos, even Märklin, also support sound in analogue operation.


Without a decoder? How?
Offline RayF  
#36 Posted : 06 June 2016 15:51:07(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Most sound locos, even Märklin, also support sound in analogue operation.


Without a decoder? How?


Not analogue locos without a decoder.

What Tom means is that digital locos with sound, when run in an analogue environment, often play the sounds as well.

This is because some functions (such as F1) are configured to be "on" by default in analogue operation
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline H0  
#37 Posted : 06 June 2016 17:30:04(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
This is because some functions (such as F1) are configured to be "on" by default in analogue operation
With DIP switch decoders, F1 is on in analogue operation.
With modern programmable decoders this can be configured as needed.

You can use a digital controller to activate sounds for analogue operation - or turn red rear lights off for analogue operation.
You can set the maximum speed to make the loco slower in analogue operation (a feature Silvano will not need LOL ).

With most new locos sound for analogue operation will be off by default.

Modern locos will usually activate sound and lights at a low voltage, but will start moving around 9 V. Both ESU and Zimo decoders can do that.
You can stop the train by turning the voltage back - keep it below 9 V and the train will stop with the sound of squealing brakes.
Digital decoder at work during analogue operation.

Two videos (Zimo and ESU decoder respectively) can be found here:
https://www.marklin-user...gue-operation#post504209
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Mark_1602  
#38 Posted : 06 June 2016 17:43:32(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I don't quite agree with Mark's assessment.

The evidence is that analogue Marklin locomotives get left on the shelves to the point that they are unsellable. I don't think there is a huge market for old analogue locos except for those who are looking for a bargain with a view to conversion to digital. Just trawl through ebay and you find plenty of evidence of this.



Hi Ray,

I've sold a lot of stuff on Ebay, mostly digital but some analogue locos as well. As a seller I can see the number of Ebay members who look at the item or who put it on their watchlist. You'd be surpised, but vintage locomotives usually attract more interest. Prices for analogue locos are generally low, of course, because most of them have been used a lot and are not rare at all.

I wasn't referring to the prices, but to the interest. The low prices of used analogue locos are one of the main reasons why some people return to analogue in Germany. Many of those who are interested in MRR have low pensions or salaries, so their only chance to practice that hobby is analogue. In addition, there are those who are fed up with Märklin's quality issues and have sold all of their digital locomotives.

Most digital locomotives are also hard to sell once they are more than a few years old and the interst has evaporated, even if they have sound and mfx. When you say unsellable analogue locos, you probably have models from the late seventies or eighties in mind. The collectors don't want those, but stuff made before 1972 is easy to sell, especially if it comes in blue illustrated (or red) boxes.

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline utkan  
#39 Posted : 08 June 2016 10:59:46(UTC)
utkan

Turkey   
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 19,116
Location: Istanbul,
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I don't quite agree with Mark's assessment.

The evidence is that analogue Marklin locomotives get left on the shelves to the point that they are unsellable. I don't think there is a huge market for old analogue locos except for those who are looking for a bargain with a view to conversion to digital. Just trawl through ebay and you find plenty of evidence of this.



Hi Ray,

I've sold a lot of stuff on Ebay, mostly digital but some analogue locos as well. As a seller I can see the number of Ebay members who look at the item or who put it on their watchlist. You'd be surpised, but vintage locomotives usually attract more interest. Prices for analogue locos are generally low, of course, because most of them have been used a lot and are not rare at all.

I wasn't referring to the prices, but to the interest. The low prices of used analogue locos are one of the main reasons why some people return to analogue in Germany. Many of those who are interested in MRR have low pensions or salaries, so their only chance to practice that hobby is analogue. In addition, there are those who are fed up with Märklin's quality issues and have sold all of their digital locomotives.

Most digital locomotives are also hard to sell once they are more than a few years old and the interst has evaporated, even if they have sound and mfx. When you say unsellable analogue locos, you probably have models from the late seventies or eighties in mind. The collectors don't want those, but stuff made before 1972 is easy to sell, especially if it comes in blue illustrated (or red) boxes.

Best regards,
Mark


Hi Mark,
I live in a country,where the trains and train culture is a bit richer than the Sahara Desert...Blushing
So I am not in a good position to evalute the realities as you and some others do here. But I have been to Germany about sixty times and have been spending every single penny of my pocket money and am intending to do so for the coming years as long as I live. RollEyes
I believe everybody agrees that the MRR market has been shrinking since the beginning of 2000s due to some reasons such as space, e-bay...
I think the most important one is the economical.
Just choose a typical photo of Böerse or a fair, and look at the people. How many of them are carrying full bags? How many of them seem to be able to buy a loco worth 400€? Very fewCrying
I can not remember which year it was exactly...Dortmund was playing their championship match and we could not find a single place to park in the city of Dortmund to visit the IntermodellbauOhMyGod
This year Fair and and sellers were crying...why the whole event has shrunk and shrunk...Sad
The reason is the digital madness...ThumbDown
The catalogs get thicker but the buyers get thinner in the sense of number...Sad
The MRR companies have always been interested in rich customers. This is very normal but they have forgotten one single reality : Maerklin has sold over 5 millions of BR 89 (3000). I have always asked myself this simple question : why Krokodile not Ludmilla in the first place? The Swiss have money so they made the Krokodile. But East Germans did not so no chance for Ludmilla. ThumbDown
So I believe the MRR companies , including, mother M*, has made a vital mistake by dropping analog/ analogueRollEyes
Cheers,
mehmet utkan
Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you...
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Offline mjrallare  
#40 Posted : 09 June 2016 12:05:14(UTC)
mjrallare


Joined: 14/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 560
Hi!
As usual we all have different views on this...BigGrin For me the answer is simple. At least when I compare the locos from my childhood with the locos I have with the latest C-sine motors (SDS motors). I think those motors were great! It's a pity their reputation was smeared by the compact C-sine motors that went before them. And the easy way of running several trains simultaneously is enough reason for me to go digital.

Has Märklin ever been for "the masses"? People in general weren't that well off 30 years ago either. In Sweden Märklin has always been expensive. Many got a starter set for Christmas but that was it. Individual locos just were too expensive. I think that young people today simply aren't interested in trains. Trains don't have that "je ne sais quoi" that they used to have when most of us were young. So more and more people are leaving the hobby due to "natural causes" and very few people are finding their way into the hobby. If one looks at the sales of consumer electronics for example, many people still seems to have a lot of money, so I don't think economical problems are the main reason for the decline in the MRR-business.

I'm not optimistic. I think it will be nearly impossible to stop the decline both in the short and in the long run. But is one of the key decisions in trying to turn things around to introduce more analouge locos? I don't think so. There are tons of analouge locos in mint condition in the second hand market. I think one has to take a broader look. One of the key decisions for Märklin (IMHO) is to prioritize the needs of their end customers before the needs of their retailers. The cost of getting a loco to the end customer is too high. The turnover in MRR can't feed as many mouths today as it used to and the problem will get worse as the overall turnover is shrinking. Changes has to be made in the distribution chain. Due to historic reasons that seems to be very difficult however. At least in Germany. They have a very loyal customer base. It's time for Märklin to use that to their advantage. But the retailers always seems to be more important to Märklin. The price increases are for sure one effect of prioritizing the (smaller) retailers.

It's for sure not easy for Märklin to know what to do. But increasing prices, producing less one-time series and not being able to get a grip on quality issues will not help them. Maybe the young Sieber is too young? Is he the man to make all the difficult decisions for Märklin? Is it a good thing to have a family member running everyday business in a family owned company? Can you as a subordinate criticize company decisions in such an environment?

/Torbjörn
Offline baggio  
#41 Posted : 09 June 2016 13:55:13(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: mjrallare Go to Quoted Post
And the easy way of running several trains simultaneously is enough reason for me to go digital.


Why do you say it's easy? One disappointment I have had with this is that the trains do not automatically distance themselves from one another; as a result, I have to constantly monitor and adjust the distance between TWO trains. Trying to do it with THREE is virtually impossible.

As a result, I always run one train on one track (Marklin digital) and another train on another separate track (2 rail analogue).

The only real neat thing about digital are the sounds, but they quickly wear off on me, and the ability to park locos and keep them there while another train runs; but this can be done in analogue,too, albeit with a lot more trouble.

My usual 2 cents' worth. BigGrin

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Offline mjrallare  
#42 Posted : 10 June 2016 09:46:37(UTC)
mjrallare


Joined: 14/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 560
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post

Why do you say it's easy?
...


Well I find it more easy to run the trains digitally. I also think it opens up more possibilities. When I was younger I had the Märklin Toporama (7298?) and the different M-sets (S+E+T1-T, was it up to 4?). I also had catenary on the layout. I ran this layout analogue of course, with four transformers. That was also easy and great fun.

Today I'm afraid I don't have a permanent layout. But I'm planning one! I have space for a temporary layout though of about 2x5 meters. This space is sadly only available during the winter. During summer that space is needed for other activities. I use it to build different "test-layouts" and to be able to see my trains running. I think digital makes building these temporary layouts much easier. I use C-track with decoders in the turnouts. Last "season" I tried to run my layout with the help of Win-Digipet. That was great fun! I will be experimenting more with that during the coming winter.

My future permanent layout will be digital and computer-controlled for sure. I can understand that others want to run their layouts analogue. It's a hobby and the most important thing is that it's interesting and fun! But will Märklin be able to increase turnover and profit by introducing analogue versions of their locos? I doubt that. People interested in analogue seems to (IMHO) be more interested in the Märklin as it looked during the sixties and seventies. And as I said, there's a huge second-hand market for them to choose from.

/Torbjörn
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Offline Mark_1602  
#43 Posted : 10 June 2016 15:10:00(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: mjrallare Go to Quoted Post
But will Märklin be able to increase turnover and profit by introducing analogue versions of their locos? I doubt that. People interested in analogue seems to (IMHO) be more interested in the Märklin as it looked during the sixties and seventies. And as I said, there's a huge second-hand market for them to choose from.

/Torbjörn


Hi Torbjörn,

That's right. New analogue locomotives wouldn't sell for different reasons:

1) They'd still be pricey as compared to second-hand analogue models because AC locomotives need a reversing unit or cheap decoder.
2) People like me who like analogue locos want the real stuff that Märklin used to make before the 1990s - or for the hardliners and vintage collectors, before the mid-seventies - not the imitations that Märklin might produce with today's technology.
3) New Märklin analogue locos would probably be like Primex locos, which were made for many years and are available second-hand at low cost.

Nevertheless, I agree with Mehmet that Märklin has made a great mistake: with its digital-only philosophy based on the lie that nobody in interested in analogue any more, Märklin has alienated and lost many customers who actually love the brand but won't buy its new products any more.

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline Unholz  
#44 Posted : 10 June 2016 15:20:09(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post

(...) with its digital-only philosophy based on the lie that nobody in interested in analogue any more, Märklin has alienated and lost many customers who actually love the brand but won't buy its new products any more.


"Digital-only philiosophy? Confused Sorry, I don't have time to read the entire thread, so maybe there is a misunderstanding, but a few days ago I leafed through Marklin's catalogue "Sommerneuheiten 2016" ( http://streaming.maerkli...edia/mae_sonh2016_DE.pdf ). On page 3 there, Marklin expressly encourages using their current digital locomotives in analogue mode, so one can't really claim that they deliberately want to alienate their traditionalist customers.

Offline baggio  
#45 Posted : 10 June 2016 16:45:36(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post
so one can't really claim that they deliberately want to alienate their traditionalist customers.


But they also do not produce a cheaper version in analogue.
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Offline Mark_1602  
#46 Posted : 10 June 2016 19:46:09(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post
Marklin expressly encourages using their current digital locomotives in analogue mode, so one can't really claim that they deliberately want to alienate their traditionalist customers.


Try using them in analogue mode. They don't run smoothly at all and perform less well than vintage Märklin locomotives with a large flat collector motor, which can run very smoothly if they are serviced and oiled in the right way and are pretty good at low speeds. Märklin encourages something which is pointless there.

Read the whole thread. I haven't said that they deliberately alienate their traditional customer base, but they just don't care very much about customer's preferences if they can't make money with those. Do you know that the profit that Märklin makes on locomotives is largely due to components such as DC motors and decoders which Märklin buys at low cost but sells at a high price? Analogue just wouldn't pay off now. The quality problems of the last ten years or so have also alienated many digital users, though I don't think that Märklin intended to do that. Some people don't like the DC motors, whereas others disapprove of the decoders or generally don't like Märklin's policies.

Anyway I can get what I really want without the present-day Märklin company. It's a buyer's market, so I have a huge choice of secondhand items, but I also buy some brand new stuff every year. Actually, I've been a Märklin fan since about 1975, when I was just a kid, but I don't get the feeling that Märklin cares very much about customers like me as I'm not a club member.

Best regards,

Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline H0  
#47 Posted : 11 June 2016 07:49:11(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
But they also do not produce a cheaper version in analogue.
Should analogue locos be cheaper?
Are vinyl records cheaper than CDs?
Special versions for minorities come with extra costs.

The cheapest option nowadays would be plain-vanilla digital for three-rail and analogue for two-rail.

They no longer offer the old pr P8 - it was half the price of the new pr P8 and I expected they would keep it in the Hobby range for some time.
There are many options for Märklin to make cheap entry-level locos. Many options they deliberately miss because they are running for the money.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline mjrallare  
#48 Posted : 11 June 2016 11:30:12(UTC)
mjrallare


Joined: 14/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 560
Hi!
I will stretch this topic a bit. As I've said I don't believe that adding an analogue version of most locos would help Märklin on a financial level. I could be wrong, but that's how I look at it.
But this topic about analogue locos suggests one way of broadening the line-up and that brings me to a couple of statements by Florian Sieber that I can't understand.
From what I've read he wishes to cut down on one-time series and produce bigger "batches" of each model.

Those statements amazes me! Looking around one can clearly see that "one-time series" are the name of the game in many businesses today. Especially in businesses that sell goods we actually don't need! We need food and we need a new tyre for our car when the old one is worn out. We however really don't need a new loco. We desire it, but that is not the same thing as needing it as a fundamental thing in our daily lives. So companies try to create a demand or "desire". They make us want things we don't really need. Here the marketing people have a field day and let their imagination run! One of the outcomes of their inventiveness to make us buy more is one-time series. We don't have time to think about the purchase because the thing we plan to buy might run out of stock. It doesn't work according to plan however if the produced batches are too big and the products end up in the shelves at the retailers.BigGrin

Märklin doesn't seem to try to understand their customers needs and what they are. Instead they listen too much to the retailers needs and just try to second guess what the end customer wants. The pricing policy seems more oriented at keeping the retailers alive than keeping Märklin alive. And no, I don't believe that the future of the retailers and the future of Märklin are interlinked. Once upon a time television sets were sold through small shops with a high service level but that is not the case anymore.
Märklin has always been, but now seems to become even more, production oriented. Large batches of locos in one version will be made and sold "en masse" at undiscounted prices. Clearly that will be hard when you look at topics like this. Some like analogue locos and I personally want the latest version of the C-sine motor back. Some like cheap entry models others want a high level of detail. Some want locos with sound and some without. Some think mfx+ is a gimmick and some think it's great. We could go on forever.

For companies that sell stuff that people don't need but "desire", the name of the game is all about customer management. It's not about retail-management. Märklin needs to make more in-depth marketing surveys. The one they made about which Insider-models people wanted is a good example. Personally I want the following from my locos:

  • I like the level of detailling of the locos. But please use another plastic for handrails and pipes, if metal is not possible!

  • I want the SDS-motor with a high quality decoder and motor electronics.

  • I want several versions of each loco so that I can pick the one that suits the period of my layout the best.

  • I want a tag on the loco that says "has been inspected by...". Quality control today is a joke. I've received many locos with missing parts. Two without functioning speakers. Two that were "dead on arrival" and many with comsmetic faults which can't be contributed to packaging problems.


For this I'm willing to pay 100-150 euros more per loco. Those who aren't willing to pay too much for a loco will have to accept lower quality parts, less detail and made in china or wherever. And this would probably be ok for those who wants a cheap loco because in the real world you can't have everything for nothing.

So this brings me back on topic. Maybe I'm wrong and there is a "desire" for analogue locos. But has Märklin made market surveys that indicates that this is the case or not. It doesn't look as if they have. There is a lot of dissatisfaction on forums and clearly everything isn't going according to plan for Märklin. I purchase one loco a year now. It used to be more than one every month on average before. Maybe I'm the only one that wants Märklin to build a high quality loco and is prepared to pay more for it. Then it won't happen. But to me it seems that Märklin isn't really sure what people want from them. And more importantly they try to solve everyones needs with one solution.

It's not easy for Märklin. But is higher prices and longer production runs of fewer locos the answer? They try to keep retailers alive and they want to produce a loco that is "one size fits all". Is that customer-orientation? Some on this forum says we should just accept that Märklin always does what's best for them and us customers. I think we have to. We don't seem to have much choice. But did Märklin "know best" when Axel Dietz was CEO?
Märklin needs to find a recipe for survival. I think this means more diversification both regarding the products and pricing.
And by the way, please bring back Stefan Löbich!

/Torbjörn
Offline H0  
#49 Posted : 11 June 2016 11:53:37(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mjrallare Go to Quoted Post
And by the way, please bring back Stefan Löbich!
It seems he left because the Siebers had a strategy he didn't like.
Was he good for Märklin? Was Lars Schilling? I don't know.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Mark_1602  
#50 Posted : 11 June 2016 14:59:33(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: mjrallare Go to Quoted Post

  • I want a tag on the loco that says "has been inspected by...". Quality control today is a joke. I've received many locos with missing parts. Two without functioning speakers. Two that were "dead on arrival" and many with comsmetic faults which can't be contributed to packaging problems.


/Torbjörn


Hi,

I want that too, but the famous Märklin quality control tags were last used in 1972 but discontinued after that, probably to cut costs. Märklin still had staff members whose job it was to check locomotives before they left the factory, but those workers were sacked around 2005. There's no evidence that they were hired again during the insolvency, and the numerous warranty cases that most of us have with brand new Märklin products actually prove your point. What Märklin TV often shows us is assembly workers checking their own work or German staff in Göppingen checking the pre-series, i.e. the first 50 locomotives.

Most Märklin locomotives I buy nowadays are vintage. To start with, they were all made in Germany and inspected, and a few are still in near-mint condition and come with the original quality control tag ... Cool It's not surprising that Mr Sieber has a big problem with the second-hand market. Current Märklin products are not always good, but they are certainly profitable, so we needn't worry about the company's survival.

Best regards,

Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Mark_1602
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