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Offline Goofy  
#1 Posted : 01 May 2016 14:23:45(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Märklin/Trix do have same wheels but difference wheel flanges.
What about the metal?
I´m confuse about the type of metal what the wheels are made of.
Any one who knows?
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#2 Posted : 01 May 2016 15:08:32(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Nobody who knows?
Is the wheels made of nickel silver?
And some of the metal.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 01 May 2016 15:36:44(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Märklin/Trix do have same wheels but difference wheel flanges.
Sometimes Märklin and Trix models share the same wheel sets.

I don't know what the wheels are made of. Maybe different materials and methods are used. There are so many different sizes from gauge Z to gauge 2m.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline nitramretep  
#4 Posted : 01 May 2016 17:50:17(UTC)
nitramretep

United States   
Joined: 22/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: lower hudson valley, ny
Not entirely certain but some alloy blend. Most likely powdered metals compressed to form the shape. This powdered metal process is very common in electric drive assemblies such as cog wheels, small gears found in electric hand tools. I may be very wrong but looking at them they look similar to same. Stainless steel would (perhaps) be an issue on the rails and other areas as it tends to wear on other metals that are not SS.

Edited by user 02 May 2016 14:06:19(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline mike c  
#5 Posted : 01 May 2016 20:35:45(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
The wheels are probably made of the same material. The main difference would be that Maerklin wheels are not isolated, while the Trix wheels are either double isolated or isolated on one side only. This is usually accomplished by using a plastic core for the wheel, with a metal outer ring, which separates the wheel from the axle electrically. On some models, wheelsets are isolated on one side only, which allows current collection from the axle instead of from the wheel itself. In this case, it is important to ensure that the wheelsets are correctly installed to avoid a short circuit.
There can also be differences in spacing of the wheels and the form of the flanges to correspond to various model railroading norms.

Regards

Mike C
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Online kiwiAlan  
#6 Posted : 02 May 2016 00:15:39(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: nitramretep Go to Quoted Post
Not entirely certain but some alloy blend. Most likely powdered metals compressed to form the shape. This powdered metal process is very common in electric drive assemblies such as cog wheels, small gears found in electric hand tools. I may be very wrong but looking at them they look similar to same. Stainless steel would (perhaps) be an issue on the rails and other areas as it tends to wear on other metals that are not SS.


I would be surprised if they are made from a sintering process as this results in a porous metal, which is not what you need when going through the plating processes.

Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#7 Posted : 02 May 2016 02:52:06(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
I would say they are casted from some soft alloy, the ones made prior to the 60's were very likely made of the same zinc alloy used in the rest of the products as there is plenty of zinc pest on wheels to indicate that possibility.

I believe in one of the late 50's or early 60's and even in one of the 80's catalogues there was a photo of either the machine used or some sort of production line photograph unfortunately memory is weak on what catalogue it might be.
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Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 02 May 2016 08:31:48(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
The main difference would be that Maerklin wheels are not isolated
Except those loco wheel sets with plastic axles.
Those are the wheel sets where Märklin and Trix even use the same spare part numbers.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline MaerklinLife  
#9 Posted : 02 May 2016 10:42:26(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
People visiting the factory on the open days will know that the wheels are made from metal using an automated lathe. You walk right past the thing on the IMA tour. They had boxes with example wheels that people could bring home as a souvenir. You also walk past the machine that put the wheels on their axles. You get to see both the AC and DC wheel set assembly line.
Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#10 Posted : 02 May 2016 15:30:38(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
People visiting the factory on the open days will know that the wheels are made from metal using an automated lathe. You walk right past the thing on the IMA tour. They had boxes with example wheels that people could bring home as a souvenir. You also walk past the machine that put the wheels on their axles. You get to see both the AC and DC wheel set assembly line.


Yes but that lathe will only give them the finishing touch to make them perfectly round and centered. The issue is what the material is and where does the rough shape comes from. Steam locomotives wheels and any other with spokes are certainly not made by a lathe, they might be finished there but they have to come from a casting process that gives the internal shape and design with the spokes, in fact there are always tell tale remnants of casting. Plain wagon wheels could be produced without a casting process but it would probably generate so much waste in industrial quantities that I am not sure they'll be made in any other different way to the locomotive wheels and then finished in the automated lathe or did you see otherwise?
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Offline DTaylor91  
#11 Posted : 03 May 2016 05:13:07(UTC)
DTaylor91


Joined: 31/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 414
Location: Kennesaw, GA
Well, I took a spare wheel and cut into it with my Dremel tool:

DSCN2571.jpg

I had assumed the newer ones were brass, but apparently not. It is some type of metal alloy silver in color. Why do I say "alloy"? It is too heavy to be nothing but aluminum. It could be mostly zinc, but doesn't seem as brittle. The metal is fairly soft, cutting the wedge out of it with the Dremel tool only took a couple seconds. Oddly enough, the wheel will just barely stick to a very, VERY strong magnet, but just barely. The metal is way too soft to be nickel. Obviously, it will take color from a metal blackening solution. I hope this gives someone better versed in metallurgy than I enough clues to figure it out.
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Offline Goofy  
#12 Posted : 03 May 2016 06:58:37(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
We need to analyse the metal of the wheels.
We now that the body of the locomotives are made of zinc.
To make sure with good contact on the rail,the wheels must been at least over 70% of the nickle silver anyway.
The rest of 30% may be standard metal?
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline waltklatt  
#13 Posted : 04 May 2016 20:15:06(UTC)
waltklatt

United States   
Joined: 17/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 138
Would you think it's called Zamac? Same stuff they made the older Corgi die cast cars of the 60's and 70's?
I saw that it was a mixture of leftover metals from the smelting plants that were thrown together to make this mixture 'Zamac'.

Walter
Offline kimballthurlow  
#14 Posted : 04 May 2016 22:52:59(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: waltklatt Go to Quoted Post
Would you think it's called Zamac? Same stuff they made the older Corgi die cast cars of the 60's and 70's?
I saw that it was a mixture of leftover metals from the smelting plants that were thrown together to make this mixture 'Zamac'.

Walter


I know this does not contribute to Goofy's original question, but Zamak is a trademarked product, and the formula for its composition is strictly controlled.
In spite of this, as many observe, impurities do creep in.
This article explains it well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamak

Please note that in this article they do mention "spin casting" which I can imagine might apply to wheel production.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 04 May 2016 23:18:09(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Picture of Märklin wheels with zincpest:
https://de.wikipedia.org...rklin_344_-_zinkpest.jpg
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Mark_1602  
#16 Posted : 05 May 2016 15:02:12(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi guys,

Here's the answer to the question. Märklin wheels are usually made of the same zinc alloy as the die-cast chassis and body of most locomotives. That's approximately 95 % zinc, 4 % aluminium, 1 % copper, 0.03 % of magnesium plus tiny amounts of other metals. The alloy is injected into a mould at a temperature of 420 °C under a pressure of 300 bars.

When the wheels come out of the mould, they are cleaned and galvanised. The first protective coating is copper, followed by nickel; each of those has a thickness of 0.01 mm. In addition, there may be a paint coating and/or the wheels may undergo a browning process.

Once I bought an old, used 3066 whose wheels seemed to be corroded, but they weren't: what looked a bit like rust was the copper layer that became visible because of the abrasion of the nickel coating. That locomotive had probably been used for a thousand hours or more!! I personally prefer the shiny nickel wheels that were standard before browning became widepread in the early 1990s.

Not all Märklin wheels are made of this zinc alloy, however. Gauge Z wheels were made of plastic from 1972 until 1979, and one well-known H0 locomotive, S 870, had plastic wheels as well. The book where I have found this information even mentions brass wheels in connection with gauge Z models but does not specify how widespread their use is.

Nowadays Märklin resells some rolling stock made by other manufacturers, but I guess it would be hard to find out what those wheels are made of. Märklin books or videos don't discuss that topic ...

Source: Eric De Ville, Alain Van Den Abeele, Märklin: Miroir de son temps [=Mirror of its time] (Brussels, 2001, ISBN 2-88468-015-2)
There's an English edition translated by Sheona Dorson-King, but it's certainly out of print.

Best regards,

Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline MaerklinLife  
#17 Posted : 06 May 2016 00:30:04(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: Iamnotthecrazyone Go to Quoted Post
Plain wagon wheels could be produced without a casting process but it would probably generate so much waste in industrial quantities that I am not sure they'll be made in any other different way to the locomotive wheels and then finished in the automated lathe or did you see otherwise?

You are probably right. What I saw was the production of the standard wheels. They had a long rod being milled into a wheel, cut off, then the next wheel and so on. How the rod itself is made, I do not know, it could very well have been cast.
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Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#18 Posted : 06 May 2016 02:52:54(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post
Hi guys,

Here's the answer to the question. Märklin wheels are usually made of the same zinc alloy as the die-cast chassis and body of most locomotives. That's approximately 95 % zinc, 4 % aluminium, 1 % copper, 0.03 % of magnesium plus tiny amounts of other metals. The alloy is injected into a mould at a temperature of 420 °C under a pressure of 300 bars.

When the wheels come out of the mould, they are cleaned and galvanised. The first protective coating is copper, followed by nickel; each of those has a thickness of 0.01 mm. In addition, there may be a paint coating and/or the wheels may undergo a browning process.

Once I bought an old, used 3066 whose wheels seemed to be corroded, but they weren't: what looked a bit like rust was the copper layer that became visible because of the abrasion of the nickel coating. That locomotive had probably been used for a thousand hours or more!! I personally prefer the shiny nickel wheels that were standard before browning became widepread in the early 1990s.



Best regards,

Mark


I've suspected some of that because I have some worn wheels that have the copper exposed, some of them my own fault for polishing themCrying others just from plain wear. I like both chrome and burnish finish, the latter makes the engines look more realistic but you can't beat thick, chunky chrome on mint steam engines from the 60's and 50's.
Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#19 Posted : 06 May 2016 02:55:47(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Iamnotthecrazyone Go to Quoted Post
Plain wagon wheels could be produced without a casting process but it would probably generate so much waste in industrial quantities that I am not sure they'll be made in any other different way to the locomotive wheels and then finished in the automated lathe or did you see otherwise?

You are probably right. What I saw was the production of the standard wheels. They had a long rod being milled into a wheel, cut off, then the next wheel and so on. How the rod itself is made, I do not know, it could very well have been cast.


Hi,
Just to confirm, when you say standard wheels you are talking flat, solid wheels for wagons, right?
Thanks, Alex

Offline Roberto Romano  
#20 Posted : 06 May 2016 05:28:53(UTC)
Roberto Romano


Joined: 02/02/2007(UTC)
Posts: 101
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
By the way, this book, Märklin: Miroir de son temps, is now on sale at ebay.es in the Dutch language at a very reasonable price 0f 35 euros plus S&H.
Look at:
http://www.ebay.es/itm/B...%3D1%26sd%3D301914727054
Regards, Roberto
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Jay
Offline Roberto Romano  
#21 Posted : 06 May 2016 05:34:34(UTC)
Roberto Romano


Joined: 02/02/2007(UTC)
Posts: 101
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
If anybody has the PDF copy of this book in English or French I will love to have it. Please contact me. A BIG thanks will go to the reply(er).
Regards, Roberto
Offline H0  
#22 Posted : 06 May 2016 08:53:26(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
What I saw was the production of the standard wheels. They had a long rod being milled into a wheel, cut off, then the next wheel and so on. How the rod itself is made, I do not know, it could very well have been cast.
Two wheels with an axle between them form a wheel set. It sounds as if you saw the production of wheel sets from previously made wheels using a long previously made rod for the axle.
Some loco wheel sets have plastic axles.

At that stage, the wheels have seen several production stages including polishing and galvanic baths.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Goofy  
#23 Posted : 06 May 2016 11:11:09(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post
Hi guys,

Here's the answer to the question. Märklin wheels are usually made of the same zinc alloy as the die-cast chassis and body of most locomotives. That's approximately 95 % zinc, 4 % aluminium, 1 % copper, 0.03 % of magnesium plus tiny amounts of other metals. The alloy is injected into a mould at a temperature of 420 °C under a pressure of 300 bars.

When the wheels come out of the mould, they are cleaned and galvanised. The first protective coating is copper, followed by nickel; each of those has a thickness of 0.01 mm. In addition, there may be a paint coating and/or the wheels may undergo a browning process.

Once I bought an old, used 3066 whose wheels seemed to be corroded, but they weren't: what looked a bit like rust was the copper layer that became visible because of the abrasion of the nickel coating. That locomotive had probably been used for a thousand hours or more!! I personally prefer the shiny nickel wheels that were standard before browning became widepread in the early 1990s.

Not all Märklin wheels are made of this zinc alloy, however. Gauge Z wheels were made of plastic from 1972 until 1979, and one well-known H0 locomotive, S 870, had plastic wheels as well. The book where I have found this information even mentions brass wheels in connection with gauge Z models but does not specify how widespread their use is.

Nowadays Märklin resells some rolling stock made by other manufacturers, but I guess it would be hard to find out what those wheels are made of. Märklin books or videos don't discuss that topic ...

Source: Eric De Ville, Alain Van Den Abeele, Märklin: Miroir de son temps [=Mirror of its time] (Brussels, 2001, ISBN 2-88468-015-2)
There's an English edition translated by Sheona Dorson-King, but it's certainly out of print.

Best regards,

Mark


I suppose it was the golden age time they did produced the wheels like that?
Or it´s still today this way of mass producing the wheels?

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline MaerklinLife  
#24 Posted : 06 May 2016 20:11:26(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: Iamnotthecrazyone Go to Quoted Post
Just to confirm, when you say standard wheels you are talking flat, solid wheels for wagons, right?

Yup. A long rod, being shaped into a wheel, cut off, then a new wheel was shaped and so on.

Standard wheels for coaches and wagons.

@Tom
The wheels were put on their axles at another machine. They had one for AC wheel sets and one for DC wheel sets. The rod I mentioned was not the axle, but the large rod from which the wheel itself is shaped and cut. (I am not stupid, so I know when a wheel becomes a wheel set..!)
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#25 Posted : 06 May 2016 23:29:01(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post
Hi guys,

Here's the answer to the question. Märklin wheels are usually made of the same zinc alloy as the die-cast chassis and body of most locomotives. That's approximately 95 % zinc, 4 % aluminium, 1 % copper, 0.03 % of magnesium plus tiny amounts of other metals. The alloy is injected into a mould at a temperature of 420 °C under a pressure of 300 bars.

When the wheels come out of the mould, they are cleaned and galvanised. The first protective coating is copper, followed by nickel; each of those has a thickness of 0.01 mm. In addition, there may be a paint coating and/or the wheels may undergo a browning process.
........

Mark


Hi all,
That would seem right, because Maerklin also produce spoked wheels of two types (spoked and split-spoked), and they would have to be moulded.
However they do it, I consider them some of the best rolling wheels on the market.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline H0  
#26 Posted : 07 May 2016 09:12:34(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
The rod I mentioned was not the axle, but the large rod from which the wheel itself is shaped and cut
Sorry, my fault - I was thinking of a rod with axle diameter, not wheel diameter.

So this probably means there are at least two methods to make H0 scale wheels (die-casting for spoked wheels, stamping for plain wheels), probably using different materials.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#27 Posted : 07 May 2016 22:35:45(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
The rod I mentioned was not the axle, but the large rod from which the wheel itself is shaped and cut
Sorry, my fault - I was thinking of a rod with axle diameter, not wheel diameter.

So this probably means there are at least two methods to make H0 scale wheels (die-casting for spoked wheels, stamping for plain wheels), probably using different materials.


May be these days but at I would say there were four methods at least. You have two for spoked wheels as there seem to be some wheels that have the outer ring and flange made separately from the centre part that has the spokes. Some wagon wheels at least up to the 70's but could be later too, have what it appears to be left over marks from coming out of a mold. If I can later I'll take some photos of those two.
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