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Offline Rinus  
#1 Posted : 30 April 2016 12:04:05(UTC)
Rinus


Joined: 20/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Wageningen, The Netherlands
I have the following items on order for quite some time now:

1. Brawa E95 43157 on order since September 2015 originally planned for Q4 2015
2. Brawa E75 43207 on order since January 2015 originaly planned for Q3 2015
3. Passenger coaches 46155+46153+46154 on order since January 2015 originaly planned for Q3 2015
4. Wagon 47258+48714+48713 only recently on order

I had some other orders running, but I dropped those in the process (f.e. E95 without sound and some passenger coaches)

In 2015 every quarter or so the planned delivery dates were postphoned again and again. The 'auslieferung' on the Brawa site has not been updated since january and actually stil holds the January and February delivery lists.

I'm normally quite patient with expecting orders, but this is getting a bit to my frustration and I'm thinking of cancelling the whole bunch and go for another manufacturers altbau Elok.

Does anybody share this experience with Brawa or has a clue whats going on?

Rinus
Offline RayF  
#2 Posted : 30 April 2016 13:46:39(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Production problems in China?
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Danlake  
#3 Posted : 30 April 2016 14:27:36(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,571
The whole concept of announcing new items, not yet produced, in the model railway hobby have always puzzled me and i never really start paying attention before the models are actually produced and in the shop.

The idea it should spark interest and increase sales I think it has the completely opposite effect. Users getting frustrated by waiting and waiting.

Why not just keep the announcement secret a bit longer and only announce when the production is up and running?

Brgds Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
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Offline Goofy  
#4 Posted : 30 April 2016 15:14:19(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Production problems in China?


Arghhh...not China again!
Are you sure Brawa models made in China too?

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline steventrain  
#5 Posted : 30 April 2016 15:36:30(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,601
Location: United Kingdom
Problem again in China.

Hornby about 20 items from 2016 new items was cancelled, About 80 2016 new items delay until 2017.

Hornby is cleaning out warehouse stock to dealers at up to half price sale to need money into Hornby bank.

Hornby Blame high price and too low orders from customer because of lack Quality lining painting/Parts broken off.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 30 April 2016 16:58:31(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Are you sure Brawa models made in China too?
Are you asking this seriously?
Brawa is one of those companies that were in dire straights back in 2010 when Sandakan terminated the contracts.

I don't know where the Brawa production was moved to, but I assume that the majority of Brawa rolling stock is still "Made in China".
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline franciscohg  
#7 Posted : 30 April 2016 17:09:35(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,266
Location: Patagonia
Hello, al my rolling stock coming from US dealers have the Made in China sticker. Locomotives and rolling stock from EU, with no really clear origin
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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H0
Offline nitramretep  
#8 Posted : 30 April 2016 17:58:01(UTC)
nitramretep

United States   
Joined: 22/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: lower hudson valley, ny
I received 5 Brawa items, all made in China. I have been waiting 6 months for an electric loco from Brawa (due last fall). I believe everything from Brawa is made in China. God help us when the Chinese economy takes the monumental dive that is predicted by some economists. All the manufacturers make these pronouncements knowing full well delivery will be months in the future. I think it is to get a feeling on pre-orders to gauge the inventory needed.

I think Brawa has been in China for well over a year at this point, perhaps much longer.
Offline Rinus  
#9 Posted : 30 April 2016 17:59:46(UTC)
Rinus


Joined: 20/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Wageningen, The Netherlands
Originally Posted by: Danlake Go to Quoted Post
The whole concept of announcing new items, not yet produced, in the model railway hobby have always puzzled me and i never really start paying attention before the models are actually produced and in the shop.

Brgds Lasse


Thats perhaps the best thing to do. I think I'll leave the new items for what they are at the moment.
Offline Rinus  
#10 Posted : 30 April 2016 18:02:39(UTC)
Rinus


Joined: 20/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Wageningen, The Netherlands
Originally Posted by: steventrain Go to Quoted Post
Problem again in China.

Hornby about 20 items from 2016 new items was cancelled, About 80 2016 new items delay until 2017.

Hornby is cleaning out warehouse stock to dealers at up to half price sale to need money into Hornby bank.

Hornby Blame high price and too low orders from customer because of lack Quality lining painting/Parts broken off.


What is the problem then in china regarding manufacturing train models?

I read that Ls Models ran in to problem when their supplier went bankrupt and they had difficulty recovering their toolings. Where other manufactueres affected as well?

Rinus
Offline nitramretep  
#11 Posted : 30 April 2016 19:22:44(UTC)
nitramretep

United States   
Joined: 22/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: lower hudson valley, ny
Oh boy that's rich "Blaming customers for too few orders (Hornby)" How about making the models people want and the quality they require! I remember Hornby from the 50's - 60's and they were quality products then. I was amazed to see the Hornby loco's at the National Railway Museum in York, very lightweight poorly made locos with numerous over sized fasteners and nasty paint work! Of course ALL made in China! Marklin on the other hand has maintained a much higher level of quality and attention to detail. Very sad to see Hornby slowly descending into "Shabby Land". My apologies to those who love Hornby.
Offline Goofy  
#12 Posted : 01 May 2016 14:10:33(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Are you sure Brawa models made in China too?
Are you asking this seriously?
Brawa is one of those companies that were in dire straights back in 2010 when Sandakan terminated the contracts.

I don't know where the Brawa production was moved to, but I assume that the majority of Brawa rolling stock is still "Made in China".


With that high prices of the models!??
No i´m pretty sure Brawa locomotives do produce in Germany.
ESU locomotives are made in China and cost about 25% lesser in prices than Brawa.
Now even ESU do have problems with the quality and few of the models do have problem.
Brawa did also quiet cooperation with ESU about digital sound decoder and started with D&H.
Not sure if there is problem too and explain why new models is late.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 01 May 2016 14:29:25(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
No i´m pretty sure Brawa locomotives do produce in Germany.
Not all China models develop zincpest, but zincpest models made in this century are most likely made in China.
And Brawa had that problem, too.

A report in a 2004 MRR magazine indicates that Brawa used Sandakan as producer since the 1990s, but was still producing in Germany.

Reports from 2010 suggest that Brawa had a lot made in China by 2010 - hence the big problems after Sandakan stepped out.

They advertise "German engineering" on their website - I didn't find a word about "Made in Germany" there.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Goofy  
#14 Posted : 01 May 2016 15:04:47(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
No i´m pretty sure Brawa locomotives do produce in Germany.
Not all China models develop zincpest, but zincpest models made in this century are most likely made in China.
And Brawa had that problem, too.

A report in a 2004 MRR magazine indicates that Brawa used Sandakan as producer since the 1990s, but was still producing in Germany.

Reports from 2010 suggest that Brawa had a lot made in China by 2010 - hence the big problems after Sandakan stepped out.

They advertise "German engineering" on their website - I didn't find a word about "Made in Germany" there.


Hmmm...you have right.
I did focus on the package,which it was stand still Made in Germany.
But hey...they are expensive like Rolls Royce!!
Do company fool the customer about the prices?
Sure!
Let´s see if Brawa do survive and make sure to delivery new models.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline PhillipL  
#15 Posted : 01 May 2016 21:45:17(UTC)
PhillipL

United States   
Joined: 24/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 123
One major European model train dealer here is the US has openly stated that nearly all manufacturers limit the number of production runs on each item they sell. He went on to say that the production run is based on the number of pre-orders. If the numbers do not meet a certain amount (profit over cost), the run is simply delayed until the number is met or they simply cancelled after an amount of time has pasted. I have seen ROCO, Piko, and Walthers all cancel releases. On a recent cancellation of run of locomotives, Walthers announced that they did not receive enough pre-orders to justify making the locomotive.
Offline SNAFU  
#16 Posted : 02 May 2016 10:19:55(UTC)
SNAFU

Australia   
Joined: 08/01/2008(UTC)
Posts: 279
Location: Naracoorte, South Austrlia
Originally Posted by: PhillipL Go to Quoted Post
One major European model train dealer here is the US has openly stated that nearly all manufacturers limit the number of production runs on each item they sell. He went on to say that the production run is based on the number of pre-orders. If the numbers do not meet a certain amount (profit over cost), the run is simply delayed until the number is met or they simply cancelled after an amount of time has pasted. I have seen ROCO, Piko, and Walthers all cancel releases. On a recent cancellation of run of locomotives, Walthers announced that they did not receive enough pre-orders to justify making the locomotive.


So how do those that may want an item with a limited budget get these items then? I dont want to commit to a pre order if I know I wont have the funds when it is delivered, but may say six months after its released. In that situation I suppose I am beholding to those who make the numbers worth it first.
Tony
Curiosity hasn't killed this cat yet.
Offline H0  
#17 Posted : 02 May 2016 11:13:58(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: SNAFU Go to Quoted Post
So how do those that may want an item with a limited budget get these items then?
I have seen cancelled items with Roco and with Trix.
Trix cancelled an item I was interested in - so I had funds for another Piko loco. Such is life.

So maybe you do not get the item you wanted in the first place. But you buy something else - maybe not even MRR related.

It's good for the profitability of MRR companies to cancel the least wanted items and make more of the most wanted items. But they will lose some funds and maybe even some fans that way.

You didn't get the loco you want? How much does it hurt one year later? Not at all.
MRR is addictive. Those cancellations help to cure this addiction. We should be grateful for every cancellation. Wink

There are always more locos to fall in love with than you can afford. If it is a "want have" then wait for next years "want have" items.
If it is a "must have" then consider a credit or wait for a livery variation a few years later or buy it second hand a few years later.
In both cases tell yourself "I do not really need it, I do not really need it, I do not really need it". Wink
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline RayF  
#18 Posted : 02 May 2016 11:23:21(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Very true, Tom.

None of us actually need these trains. It's just a hobby, not an obligation! If you don't have the money you don't need to put in an order....

I agree that it is disappointing if I pre-order an item and then it either takes forever or gets cancelled. However, as you rightly point out, I can spend the money on something else.

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline MaerklinLife  
#19 Posted : 02 May 2016 11:26:09(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
In both cases tell yourself "I do not really need it, I do not really need it, I do not really need it". Wink

That is usually the problem. At least for me.

It comes to a Gollum like debate with my self:
"Me want it so much!"
"But you do not need it"
"But me want it, precious!"
"But you do not need it!"
"STOP! Stop, telling me what to do..."
"Okay, go buy it, go, go!"
"My precious!"

Smile
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Offline RayF  
#20 Posted : 02 May 2016 11:35:29(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
In both cases tell yourself "I do not really need it, I do not really need it, I do not really need it". Wink

That is usually the problem. At least for me.

It comes to a Gollum like debate with my self:
"Me want it so much!"
"But you do not need it"
"But me want it, precious!"
"But you do not need it!"
"STOP! Stop, telling me what to do..."
"Okay, go buy it, go, go!"
"My precious!"

Smile


BigGrin
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline sjbartels  
#21 Posted : 03 May 2016 04:48:05(UTC)
sjbartels

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,091
Originally Posted by: PhillipL Go to Quoted Post
One major European model train dealer here is the US has openly stated that nearly all manufacturers limit the number of production runs on each item they sell. He went on to say that the production run is based on the number of pre-orders. If the numbers do not meet a certain amount (profit over cost), the run is simply delayed until the number is met or they simply cancelled after an amount of time has pasted. I have seen ROCO, Piko, and Walthers all cancel releases. On a recent cancellation of run of locomotives, Walthers announced that they did not receive enough pre-orders to justify making the locomotive.


Welcome to capitalism 101 - no one is going to put money into a product where there is no guarantee of a return based on the number of pre-orders.

At the same time, how does a manufacturer get the number of pre-orders they need without advertising the item? It's a two sided gamble, does ROCO or Piko or whomever invest to manufacturer 10000 units and only end up selling 100? At the same time, do they order 100 and end up with 10000 orders? There isn't really a perfect solution alas. I really wanted a specific Marklin lok that never even reached the US because the number made was less than demand. There will always be Swiss Crocodiles that sell for $1000 because they're so rare and so many 4423 Gonadala's that you can't sell for 1c because there are so many of them. Maybe one day the perfect solution might be found
American by Geography, Australian by Birth. I am an original Ameristraylian
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Offline H0  
#22 Posted : 03 May 2016 08:27:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: sjbartels Go to Quoted Post
At the same time, how does a manufacturer get the number of pre-orders they need without advertising the item?
Market research maybe?
Ask a panel of 100 or 1000 MRR enthusiasts about potential new items and do not put the lemons into the new items brochure.

Märklin used to have significant discounts for early pre-orders, but they reduced that.

Many people will buy spontaneously what they see in the shops. This only can happen if the dealer bears the economic risk and orders locos without pre-orders from customers. And this is less likely to happen today than it was 10 or 15 years ago.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#23 Posted : 03 May 2016 09:14:40(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by: nitramretep Go to Quoted Post
Oh boy that's rich "Blaming customers for too few orders (Hornby)" How about making the models people want and the quality they require! I remember Hornby from the 50's - 60's and they were quality products then. I was amazed to see the Hornby loco's at the National Railway Museum in York, very lightweight poorly made locos with numerous over sized fasteners and nasty paint work! Of course ALL made in China! Marklin on the other hand has maintained a much higher level of quality and attention to detail. Very sad to see Hornby slowly descending into "Shabby Land". My apologies to those who love Hornby.


Actually Hornby has a lot of fine detail these days compared to what they used to and thanks to having a better business model the company has become a surviving monster that swallowed a lot of of other well known companies that produced better stuff than them.
Unfortunately when it comes to quality I do agree with you there are so many wrongs that despite all the detail their models still don't look 100% that is what still kept me from buying British models otherwise there are lots I want. I have also seen Chinese Hornby suffering zink pest and the mechanical quality of the Thomas range is appalling for something aimed at kids which should be extra tough.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#24 Posted : 03 May 2016 23:37:27(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Iamnotthecrazyone Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: nitramretep Go to Quoted Post
Oh boy that's rich "Blaming customers for too few orders (Hornby)" How about making the models people want and the quality they require! I remember Hornby from the 50's - 60's and they were quality products then. I was amazed to see the Hornby loco's at the National Railway Museum in York, very lightweight poorly made locos with numerous over sized fasteners and nasty paint work! Of course ALL made in China! Marklin on the other hand has maintained a much higher level of quality and attention to detail. Very sad to see Hornby slowly descending into "Shabby Land". My apologies to those who love Hornby.


Actually Hornby has a lot of fine detail these days compared to what they used to and thanks to having a better business model the company has become a surviving monster that swallowed a lot of of other well known companies that produced better stuff than them.
Unfortunately when it comes to quality I do agree with you there are so many wrongs that despite all the detail their models still don't look 100% that is what still kept me from buying British models otherwise there are lots I want. I have also seen Chinese Hornby suffering zink pest and the mechanical quality of the Thomas range is appalling for something aimed at kids which should be extra tough.


Part of Hornbys problem is the bunch of special models they made for the 2012 Olympics that didn't sell. The models were garish, and I don' t think there was a prototype for most of them, so that didn't help either. So they were left holding a lot of unsold stock that has impacted on their bottom line ever since.

Offline rmsailor  
#25 Posted : 04 May 2016 13:34:25(UTC)
rmsailor

Scotland   
Joined: 20/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 569
Location: Kirkcaldy, Fife
Some German shops are offering loads of cheap Brawa stuff so it may be they are having financial troubles as well

Bob M.
Offline river6109  
#26 Posted : 04 May 2016 14:07:35(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
received an email from Modellbahn Kramm today offering reduced price items from Brawa.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline H0  
#27 Posted : 04 May 2016 15:04:59(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: rmsailor Go to Quoted Post
Some German shops are offering loads of cheap Brawa stuff so it may be they are having financial troubles as well
They make clearance sales every year to get rid of stocked items.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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