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Offline tlif  
#1 Posted : 23 February 2016 23:21:38(UTC)
tlif

Sweden   
Joined: 10/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 21
Location: Stockholms Lan, Haegersten
OK, my track building is progressing at snail pace but I've had some fun converting my old locos to mfx and 5-pole motors.

And at one point I set up a small track section just to play with the two MS2:s I got for Christmas, but this raises some questions.

1) Either the guy who sold them to me was confused or I didn't hear him right, because what I thought he'd said was that which MS2 became "master" and which would be "slave" was determined by which socket they were plugged into. That doesn't match what I see, as no matter where or in which order I plug them in, the one always "wins" and becomes master and the other will be slave. Not a big deal, since it was easy enough to mark them to show the difference, but it has me wondering - was he confused or am I missing some vital piece of information?

2) One of my converted locos will NOT appear in the list of locos to import from the master to the slave. It's a tiny little 3029 from my original starter kit of 50 years ago and obviously not worth the trouble from any economic (or logical) point of view, but it has affection value to me, so I did the conversion anyway and BOY does it run nice! But the mfx auto-discovery was quite reluctant to admit that it actually existed and even when it did, it wouldn't show in the slave's listing of locos available from the master. The problem with auto-detection I have seen others posting about with small locos without lights (very low current draw) so I guess that may be something I have to live with, but the transfer of info from master to slave should be based on the list of what's already in the master, so what's going on here? In the end I had to use a loco card to transfer the info!

3) Speaking of loco cards, is there any way to insert one into the MS2 without it getting read? If I have changed some settings of one loco and then realize I should save it to a card, if I insert a card that has that loco on it from before, the data from there gets read to the MS2 and overwrites the changes I just made (and wanted to save)! Not what I wanted...

/T
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Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 24 February 2016 00:03:49(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

Re 1: In my experience the MS2 with the lower serial number will be the master. It does not matter whether it is left or right.

Re 2: The issue with low current draw applies to DCC only. mfx and RailCom use a different mechanism that is not affected by the current draw of loco lights or loco motor.
But the current draw of other locos or even lighted coaches can disturb mfx registration.
mfx registration can be improved by stopping all trains or by removing all other rolling stock from the track.

Re 3: I don't have a workaround. Push the card in before making changes or write loco settings to a fresh card.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline tlif  
#3 Posted : 24 February 2016 08:52:02(UTC)
tlif

Sweden   
Joined: 10/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 21
Location: Stockholms Lan, Haegersten
Thanks, Tom.

1) "Serial number" - makes weird kind of sense but I don't think I would have figured that one myself in a looong time!

2) The little loco was alone of a setup track when I was playing with it. And eventually, it would get discovered as long as I only had a single MS2 hooked up. But the weird bit is that when I have both MS2:s connected, all my other locos would show up in the slave's list of what was available to import from the master - but not that little fellow!

3) Is there some way to wipe a card once it's been used? Because otherwise I will run out of fresh ones pretty soon! And if I insert one with "loco1" on it to save the new config of "loco2", I risk importing stale settings for loco1! Especilly now, while I'm still in my "discovery phase" I'm playing around a lot with what acceleration- and braking settings feel best and a lot of it is how to get a consistent "feel" across locos, so I'm tweaking them side-by-side.

Or is this all part of the business-case for (eventually) getting a CS?
Offline RayF  
#4 Posted : 24 February 2016 15:34:01(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: tlif Go to Quoted Post
Thanks, Tom.

1) "Serial number" - makes weird kind of sense but I don't think I would have figured that one myself in a looong time!

2) The little loco was alone of a setup track when I was playing with it. And eventually, it would get discovered as long as I only had a single MS2 hooked up. But the weird bit is that when I have both MS2:s connected, all my other locos would show up in the slave's list of what was available to import from the master - but not that little fellow!

3) Is there some way to wipe a card once it's been used? Because otherwise I will run out of fresh ones pretty soon! And if I insert one with "loco1" on it to save the new config of "loco2", I risk importing stale settings for loco1! Especilly now, while I'm still in my "discovery phase" I'm playing around a lot with what acceleration- and braking settings feel best and a lot of it is how to get a consistent "feel" across locos, so I'm tweaking them side-by-side.

Or is this all part of the business-case for (eventually) getting a CS?


If you insert a loco card which has information saved on it for another loco it will open an entry for that loco in the next free slot and select that. It will not change any settings for the loco you have previously selected. If you then change back to the loco you're working on and save those settings to the loco card it will overwrite the information it previously had on that card.

Please also remember that the settings for acceleration/braking, maximum speed, etc are saved on the decoder, not on the card.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline mbarreto  
#5 Posted : 24 February 2016 15:50:10(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257

It can be interesting to add 2 things to the next version of the MS2 software:

1- When a not fresh card is inserted ask if the card data should be inserted in a loco slot. If answer is yes then proceed as it currently does; if not then do nothing relative to the card (so it can be written or formated by other options)

2- New option to allow to format the card, or factory reset the card if you prefer.
Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


Offline tlif  
#6 Posted : 24 February 2016 16:13:59(UTC)
tlif

Sweden   
Joined: 10/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 21
Location: Stockholms Lan, Haegersten
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
If you insert a loco card which has information saved on it for another loco it will open an entry for that loco in the next free slot and select that. It will not change any settings for the loco you have previously selected. If you then change back to the loco you're working on and save those settings to the loco card it will overwrite the information it previously had on that card.

Please also remember that the settings for acceleration/braking, maximum speed, etc are saved on the decoder, not on the card.

That's not quite how it has appeared to me.

If I'm "on" loco1 and insert a card that has settings for loco2, then - IF loco2 is not already listed on my MS2, then the loco2 settings will be read into a new slot, just like you say. But IF loco2 is already "known" to my MS2 (let's say it's on slot 2), then my MS2 jumps to that slot and uploads the card info there, quite possibly overwriting any settings I had there for loco2. And if I insert a card with loco1 data on it, I see immediately in the MS2 the settings that came from the card, not the ones I had just painstakingly tweaked for my precious loco1.

So, then: When does the acceleration/braking data get transferred from the MS2 to the loco? And if inserting an "old" loco1 card (with the intention of writing out the new, perfect settings I've just made for loco1) "only" changes the MS2 settings but not the loco's, how do I get the loco's settings back into the MS2 so I can write them to that loco card?!
Offline RayF  
#7 Posted : 24 February 2016 16:17:15(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
The loco responds to the settings saved on the decoder, not on the card. The card is just a quick way of entering a loco onto the MS2, and can't affect the settings on the decoder.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline tlif  
#8 Posted : 24 February 2016 20:09:25(UTC)
tlif

Sweden   
Joined: 10/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 21
Location: Stockholms Lan, Haegersten
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
The loco responds to the settings saved on the decoder, not on the card. The card is just a quick way of entering a loco onto the MS2, and can't affect the settings on the decoder.


So what's the data "flow" when I load a card into my MS2? Settings from the card go into the MS2 immediately. Then what? When are they transmitted to the decoder for storage? When I change something like acceleration in the loco settings on the MS2, that gets sent immediately to the loco (well, when I hit the "done" checkmark key). So the MS2 and the loco decoder are always in sync.

What you're saying sounds to me like it would bring the MS2 and loco out of sync. If the card data is stored in the MS2 but not sent on to the loco, the system would be inconsistent. That's very upsetting to the mind of an old configuration manager!

/T
Offline RayF  
#9 Posted : 24 February 2016 20:44:27(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: tlif Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
The loco responds to the settings saved on the decoder, not on the card. The card is just a quick way of entering a loco onto the MS2, and can't affect the settings on the decoder.


So what's the data "flow" when I load a card into my MS2? Settings from the card go into the MS2 immediately. Then what? When are they transmitted to the decoder for storage? When I change something like acceleration in the loco settings on the MS2, that gets sent immediately to the loco (well, when I hit the "done" checkmark key). So the MS2 and the loco decoder are always in sync.

What you're saying sounds to me like it would bring the MS2 and loco out of sync. If the card data is stored in the MS2 but not sent on to the loco, the system would be inconsistent. That's very upsetting to the mind of an old configuration manager!

/T


Hi,

I'm sorry but I don't think I understand your problem. As far as I am concerned there are two different sets of data here, the CV settings on the decoder and the loco information on the loco card.

The CV settings on the decoder are set up on the MS2 and saved on the decoder when you make the changes. This is confirmed by the loco flashing its lights. Whichever way you then choose afterwards to select this loco if it has been deleted from your MS2, whether it be by making a new entry with its address, adding it from the loco database, or using a loco card, the CVs on the decoder will not be changed from what you programmed.

The loco card is used to store the loco details in a handy external medium to avoid having to search through the database or making a manual entry. It should not be able to re-program the decoder.

Perhaps I'm missing something here. Can anyone else throw some light on this?

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline BrandonVA  
#10 Posted : 24 February 2016 20:57:53(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
The loco card stores name, address and function configuration on the controller (MS2, CS2, etc). I don't think it knows anything else. The reason you use a loco card is when you use MM or DCC locos, and want to add one quickly to your MS2 or CS2/3 without having to set the address, type the name, and choose the functions on the controller. The functions and other CVs/settings are still there on the loco decoder, the controller just doesn't know it.

The actual configuration of the locomotive is stored on the decoder itself as Ray has said.

For example, might have a DCC locomotive with 12 functions. I can take this locomotive to any controller and use it, the decoder knows everything about the locomotive it needs to operate. I could use a DCC controller, I could use an MS2, a friend's MS2, a CS2, etc. However, in the case of the MS2/CS2/CS3, Marklin have you create the locomotive on the controller before using it (this isn't necessarily a standard with other controllers). So, if I use it on my MS2, I have to create a new loco, name it, and set the function buttons F0-F12 on the MS2. If I take ti to a friend's MS2, I would have to do the same thing over. What you will notice is, even if you don't set any, and hit F0, for example, the headlights still come on. This is because the decoder knows this, we're only telling the controller itself there are 12 functions and perhaps giving icons for them.

Now, if I have a loco card and save the name/address/functions (lets say function descriptions to be a little more accurate), I can go to my friend's MS2, plug that in, and not have to spend time creating the loco on the that friend's MS2. Or, if I have more locos than my MS2 database will hold, and delete them from the MS2 entirely, when I get one out the card is a faster way to load it. As a result, the loco card never talks to the loco decoder or vice versa, it just creates the placeholder on the MS2/CS2/CS3 controller. When you set CV values via the decoder, these are written to the loco decoder itself.

This is one thing MFX/MFX+ aims to improve. We don't need to tell the controller the information about the locomotive, the locomotive tells the controller, "Hey, my name is BR78 034, I have 12 functions, these are the icons I use for them, etc".

-Brandon
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 24 February 2016 21:05:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: tlif Go to Quoted Post
If the card data is stored in the MS2 but not sent on to the loco, the system would be inconsistent.
The loco card stores information like loco name, loco functions (function symbols) and loco address.
The loco decoder stores the loco address, acceleration and braking delay, maximum speed and other settings.

A loco card can be used to quickly select a loco that was already registered on the MS2.
It can also be used to quickly select a loco that was not yet registered with the MS2.

The values the MS2 shows for acceleration and braking delay can be out of sync with the loco for MM decoders. These settings are stored in the decoder and cannot be read. I think they are not stored on the loco card.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline tlif  
#12 Posted : 24 February 2016 22:37:57(UTC)
tlif

Sweden   
Joined: 10/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 21
Location: Stockholms Lan, Haegersten
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post


Hi,

I'm sorry but I don't think I understand your problem. As far as I am concerned there are two different sets of data here, the CV settings on the decoder and the loco information on the loco card.

The CV settings on the decoder are set up on the MS2 and saved on the decoder when you make the changes. This is confirmed by the loco flashing its lights. Whichever way you then choose afterwards to select this loco if it has been deleted from your MS2, whether it be by making a new entry with its address, adding it from the loco database, or using a loco card, the CVs on the decoder will not be changed from what you programmed.

The loco card is used to store the loco details in a handy external medium to avoid having to search through the database or making a manual entry. It should not be able to re-program the decoder.

Perhaps I'm missing something here. Can anyone else throw some light on this?



No, you're quite right of course. I'm just back from some playing around with the gadgets and once I knew what tests to run, it was easy to verify what you were saying. It just didn't match what I was expecting.

But after a bit of thought, I see the validity of how it's done. As you say, if simply inserting the card would trigger re-programming all the way down to the decoder, then it would be too easy to lose all settings by inserting a card with old data on it. As it now stands, you play the settings into the MS2 where you can (have to!) review them one by one to transfer them to the loco. Which can get a bit tedious if you have many settings, I guess, but for my simple stock it will not be any major burden

But this then begs another question. Let's say I load a loco card into the MS2 and find that it's one full of crap settings that I absolutely do not want. How do I trigger a "read" from the loco back to the MS2? Does that happen automagically when the loco and the MS2 "discover" each other after the loco has been placed on the track? When the MS2 is powered on? I tried the "find loco" menu choice but that didn't do much.

/T
Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 24 February 2016 22:46:26(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: tlif Go to Quoted Post
How do I trigger a "read" from the loco back to the MS2?
With MM decoders not at all. Put down important settings on "external memory" (e.g. a sheet of paper).

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline tlif  
#14 Posted : 24 February 2016 23:20:34(UTC)
tlif

Sweden   
Joined: 10/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 21
Location: Stockholms Lan, Haegersten
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: tlif Go to Quoted Post
How do I trigger a "read" from the loco back to the MS2?
With MM decoders not at all. Put down important settings on "external memory" (e.g. a sheet of paper).



Oh, thats great (not!). That's what I was intending to use the loco cards for in the first place and now this discussion has officially gone recursive! Blink Confused

/T
Offline RayF  
#15 Posted : 25 February 2016 00:25:27(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: tlif Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: tlif Go to Quoted Post
How do I trigger a "read" from the loco back to the MS2?
With MM decoders not at all. Put down important settings on "external memory" (e.g. a sheet of paper).



Oh, thats great (not!). That's what I was intending to use the loco cards for in the first place and now this discussion has officially gone recursive! Blink Confused

/T


Yes, I think you have to re-think what you can and cannot do with a MM decoder and with a loco card and set your sights a little lower.

Some people swap their decoders for DCC types which have the ability to read their CV values back to the controller. This might help you in your project, but you still would not be able to save these values onto a loco card. To be fair the cards were never intended to be used in this way.

If you use ESU decoders you can use a lok-programmer to adjust and store CV values for individual locos. I'm not sure if it would help with your goal though.

Good luck with your task of trying to match your locos. It seems a worthwhile thing to try to do and it would be interesting if you could share your results with us.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline tlif  
#16 Posted : 25 February 2016 14:28:57(UTC)
tlif

Sweden   
Joined: 10/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 21
Location: Stockholms Lan, Haegersten
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: tlif Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: tlif Go to Quoted Post
How do I trigger a "read" from the loco back to the MS2?
With MM decoders not at all. Put down important settings on "external memory" (e.g. a sheet of paper).

Oh, thats great (not!). That's what I was intending to use the loco cards for in the first place and now this discussion has officially gone recursive! Blink Confused
/T

Yes, I think you have to re-think what you can and cannot do with a MM decoder and with a loco card and set your sights a little lower.

Some people swap their decoders for DCC types which have the ability to read their CV values back to the controller. This might help you in your project,

What makes this particularly annoying is that four of my locos were re-built (by me) with mfx decoders in the past few weeks!

Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post

but you still would not be able to save these values onto a loco card. To be fair the cards were never intended to be used in this way.

This is what I don't get. My cards clearly save and read back settings like acceleration. It's just that I have to open each setting one by one and "apply" them by selecting the "OK" checkmark on the MS2 after I've read the card back in again.

Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post

If you use ESU decoders you can use a lok-programmer to adjust and store CV values for individual locos. I'm not sure if it would help with your goal though.

Terminology confusion: What does "CV-values" mean? Something other than the acceleration etc that I've been playing with?

Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post

Good luck with your task of trying to match your locos. It seems a worthwhile thing to try to do and it would be interesting if you could share your results with us.

It sounds like when I out-grow the MS2s, my next gadget will not be a Märklin CS after all. Perhaps an ECoS would be better for me?

Thanks!
Offline kiwiAlan  
#17 Posted : 25 February 2016 14:48:45(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: tlif Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post

but you still would not be able to save these values onto a loco card. To be fair the cards were never intended to be used in this way.

This is what I don't get. My cards clearly save and read back settings like acceleration. It's just that I have to open each setting one by one and "apply" them by selecting the "OK" checkmark on the MS2 after I've read the card back in again.


This gives me the impression that you are misunderstanding what is stored on the card and what is stored in the loco.

Originally Posted by: tlif Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post

If you use ESU decoders you can use a lok-programmer to adjust and store CV values for individual locos. I'm not sure if it would help with your goal though.

Terminology confusion: What does "CV-values" mean? Something other than the acceleration etc that I've been playing with?


CV values are what is stored in the loco. It stands for 'Configuration Variables'. Acceleration is one of these.

I suspect that when you adjust the acceleration after plugging the card in that nothing is actually happening.

As a test I suggest you do the following: -
have a nice long piece of straight track (although you can probably do the same test on a loop).

Set the loco on the track and get it to a known point from which you can time how far it travels.
Put the card for the loco in the ms2 (without altering any variables), select the loco, and set a high speed for say 5 seconds, and then set the speed to 0. Measure how far the loco travels.
Now change the acceleration to the value you want and repeat the test.
Is the distance travelled the same?
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Offline BrandonVA  
#18 Posted : 25 February 2016 16:18:47(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Originally Posted by: tlif Go to Quoted Post

What makes this particularly annoying is that four of my locos were re-built (by me) with mfx decoders in the past few weeks!


MS2 can read values from an MFX decoder. If you use MFX the decoder will automatically register with the controller, and there will be no need for a locomotive card.

Personally I only use loco cards for my non-Marklin DCC locomotives and sometimes older MM locomotives, especially if the address is not the default setting the loco database would know otherwise. I just let MFX be MFX with no cards.

If they are factory equipped MFX from Marklin, you can really only use MFX or MM (the latter if you disable MFX on the MS2). If they are retrofit MFX decoders from Marklin, ESU, etc, most allow you to select protocols; you could disable mfx on the decoder and enable DCC if this suites your needs better.

-Brandon
Offline tlif  
#19 Posted : 25 February 2016 16:38:51(UTC)
tlif

Sweden   
Joined: 10/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 21
Location: Stockholms Lan, Haegersten
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: tlif Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post

but you still would not be able to save these values onto a loco card. To be fair the cards were never intended to be used in this way.

This is what I don't get. My cards clearly save and read back settings like acceleration. It's just that I have to open each setting one by one and "apply" them by selecting the "OK" checkmark on the MS2 after I've read the card back in again.


This gives me the impression that you are misunderstanding what is stored on the card and what is stored in the loco.

Originally Posted by: tlif Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post

If you use ESU decoders you can use a lok-programmer to adjust and store CV values for individual locos. I'm not sure if it would help with your goal though.

Terminology confusion: What does "CV-values" mean? Something other than the acceleration etc that I've been playing with?


CV values are what is stored in the loco. It stands for 'Configuration Variables'. Acceleration is one of these.

I suspect that when you adjust the acceleration after plugging the card in that nothing is actually happening.

As a test I suggest you do the following: -
have a nice long piece of straight track (although you can probably do the same test on a loop).

Set the loco on the track and get it to a known point from which you can time how far it travels.
Put the card for the loco in the ms2 (without altering any variables), select the loco, and set a high speed for say 5 seconds, and then set the speed to 0. Measure how far the loco travels.
Now change the acceleration to the value you want and repeat the test.
Is the distance travelled the same?


I did domething similar yesterday.

I programmed the acceleration (delay) in one loco down to 0. That meant it would positively drag-race down my little test track when I tried it. (Hint: for loco-drag-racing with an MS2, hit "stop", turn the speed setting up to max and hit "stop" again!) I did this with a card already inserted in the MS2. I saved the settings to the card and removed it. Then I changed the loco's acceleration setting to 100 and tested it. It was now quite lethargic; big difference in scceleration.

At this point, I inserted the card again and the MS2 immediately imported its settings. I went to the loco's acceleration setting (in the MS2, that is) and it was now back to 0. I exited away from this setting without saving (hit the back-arrow key). Running the loco showed that it was still accelerating slowly so the decoder's setting was not changed (yet). I then went to the loco settings in the MS2 again, except this time after I'd looked at the 0 I hit the "OK" (checkmark) button. And then I tried the loco again and it was back to drag-racing mode!

So the loco cards I have seem to be more capable than people here give them credit for!

/T
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Offline RayF  
#20 Posted : 25 February 2016 16:58:31(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: tlif Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: tlif Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post

but you still would not be able to save these values onto a loco card. To be fair the cards were never intended to be used in this way.

This is what I don't get. My cards clearly save and read back settings like acceleration. It's just that I have to open each setting one by one and "apply" them by selecting the "OK" checkmark on the MS2 after I've read the card back in again.


This gives me the impression that you are misunderstanding what is stored on the card and what is stored in the loco.

Originally Posted by: tlif Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post

If you use ESU decoders you can use a lok-programmer to adjust and store CV values for individual locos. I'm not sure if it would help with your goal though.

Terminology confusion: What does "CV-values" mean? Something other than the acceleration etc that I've been playing with?


CV values are what is stored in the loco. It stands for 'Configuration Variables'. Acceleration is one of these.

I suspect that when you adjust the acceleration after plugging the card in that nothing is actually happening.

As a test I suggest you do the following: -
have a nice long piece of straight track (although you can probably do the same test on a loop).

Set the loco on the track and get it to a known point from which you can time how far it travels.
Put the card for the loco in the ms2 (without altering any variables), select the loco, and set a high speed for say 5 seconds, and then set the speed to 0. Measure how far the loco travels.
Now change the acceleration to the value you want and repeat the test.
Is the distance travelled the same?


I did domething similar yesterday.

I programmed the acceleration (delay) in one loco down to 0. That meant it would positively drag-race down my little test track when I tried it. (Hint: for loco-drag-racing with an MS2, hit "stop", turn the speed setting up to max and hit "stop" again!) I did this with a card already inserted in the MS2. I saved the settings to the card and removed it. Then I changed the loco's acceleration setting to 100 and tested it. It was now quite lethargic; big difference in scceleration.

At this point, I inserted the card again and the MS2 immediately imported its settings. I went to the loco's acceleration setting (in the MS2, that is) and it was now back to 0. I exited away from this setting without saving (hit the back-arrow key). Running the loco showed that it was still accelerating slowly so the decoder's setting was not changed (yet). I then went to the loco settings in the MS2 again, except this time after I'd looked at the 0 I hit the "OK" (checkmark) button. And then I tried the loco again and it was back to drag-racing mode!

So the loco cards I have seem to be more capable than people here give them credit for!

/T


It seems to me from what you say that the loco card memorises what is on the MS2 display. This is not the same as the actual values on the decoder if those values have not been saved to the decoder. If you wish to use the card to save those values as you seem to be doing I suggest you make any changes to CVs with the card in place and save the loco to the card whenever you make any changes. That would effectively synchronise the values saved on the decoder, MS2 and loco card.

I'm pretty sure the saving of this information on the loco card is an unintended and undocumented facility. Marklin tells us that the loco card saves the loco name, address, function icon layout, and picture (when using a CS2). It makes no mention of the saving of CV values.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by RayF
Offline H0  
#21 Posted : 25 February 2016 17:02:47(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: tlif Go to Quoted Post
So the loco cards I have seem to be more capable than people here give them credit for!
I admit I didn't expect that.
So it takes a lot of discipline to keep loco and card in sync if you want to have the correct setting on your MS2 all the time.
Always insert the loco card before making any changes. Always save the settings on the card after making changes.

I take the simple approach: I know the correct acceleration delay is stored in the loco, but I assume the MS2 shows an incorrect value.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline RayF  
#22 Posted : 25 February 2016 17:15:43(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: tlif Go to Quoted Post
So the loco cards I have seem to be more capable than people here give them credit for!
I admit I didn't expect that.
So it takes a lot of discipline to keep loco and card in sync if you want to have the correct setting on your MS2 all the time.
Always insert the loco card before making any changes. Always save the settings on the card after making changes.

I take the simple approach: I know the correct acceleration delay is stored in the loco, but I assume the MS2 shows an incorrect value.


I agree. When I go into the menus for changing these variables the value on the screen before I start is often way different from the value that I know is in the decoder. I always assume that the initial value is arbitrary and it's what I dial up and save to the loco that is important.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by RayF
Offline tlif  
#23 Posted : 25 February 2016 18:18:35(UTC)
tlif

Sweden   
Joined: 10/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 21
Location: Stockholms Lan, Haegersten
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post

It seems to me from what you say that the loco card memorises what is on the MS2 display. This is not the same as the actual values on the decoder if those values have not been saved to the decoder.

I agree.
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
If you wish to use the card to save those values as you seem to be doing I suggest you make any changes to CVs with the card in place and save the loco to the card whenever you make any changes. That would effectively synchronise the values saved on the decoder, MS2 and loco card.

Yep. It would work but be cumbersome, boredering on impractical.
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post

I'm pretty sure the saving of this information on the loco card is an unintended and undocumented facility. Marklin tells us that the loco card saves the loco name, address, function icon layout, and picture (when using a CS2). It makes no mention of the saving of CV values.

Heh! Where I work, "undocumented feature" is a euphenism for "bug"!

Right now I choose the more forgiving interpretation: It's something new they snuck in there in some recedn patch update to the software and will be announcing once they've tested it and can be bothered to update the manuals. Cool

/T
Offline tlif  
#24 Posted : 25 February 2016 18:22:47(UTC)
tlif

Sweden   
Joined: 10/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 21
Location: Stockholms Lan, Haegersten
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: tlif Go to Quoted Post
So the loco cards I have seem to be more capable than people here give them credit for!
I admit I didn't expect that.
So it takes a lot of discipline to keep loco and card in sync if you want to have the correct setting on your MS2 all the time.
Always insert the loco card before making any changes. Always save the settings on the card after making changes.

I agree. Like I said to Ray, cumbersome bordering on impractical!
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
I take the simple approach: I know the correct acceleration delay is stored in the loco, but I assume the MS2 shows an incorrect value.

I suspect that it's just now, while I'm still new to these digital features and experimenting with the settings, that I find it hard to remember which setting is good for each loco.

/T
Offline RayF  
#25 Posted : 25 February 2016 18:39:50(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
As I said before, you're expecting too much from the MS2 and loco cards.

Tom and I and a couple of others have explained how the loco cards are intended to work. You seem to have devised a way of using them that is neither recommended nor practical. Good luck trying to get it to work.

I think your last statement in your reply to me is incorrect and Marklin have never intended the loco cards to be used for storing the CV values. They are simply a means of holding the Loco information so that you don't have to enter the loco manually every time you want to use it. I suspect that the storing of the MS2 values for acceleration etc is incidental rather than by design. Yes, if you like, it's a bug!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline GvanWyk  
#26 Posted : 30 April 2016 19:58:39(UTC)
GvanWyk

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 18
Location: South Africa
Hi Guys, after reading through all the comments and posts, I am still not clear if a card can be "wiped" and reprogrammed? In our South African currency these cards are pretty expensive for a once-off use... Crying
I recently bought a few cards from Germany but have not used them as yet, but I really hoped to get multiple uses out of them. Something simple like loco name that might be misspelt... would I be able to rectify it, or if I move the decoder to another loco?
Offline H0  
#27 Posted : 30 April 2016 20:21:25(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: GvanWyk Go to Quoted Post
I am still not clear if a card can be "wiped" and reprogrammed?
I think it cannot be "wiped", but it can be reprogrammed.

When you push it in, it will be read by the MS2 - and it may even override changes that were made to the loco while the lococard was not in.


To "wipe" them: Select a loco you do not own from the database and write this loco to all cards you want to erase.

When you later on insert such a card it will create a new loco you do not own - ignore it or delete it.
Select or create the loco you want to store on the card and save it.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline GvanWyk  
#28 Posted : 02 May 2016 18:18:01(UTC)
GvanWyk

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 18
Location: South Africa
Perfect! tkx!!
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