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Offline clapcott  
#1 Posted : 20 April 2016 08:31:29(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
There has been a few threads recently on the level of backward compatibility.
This is usually in reference to Controller v Decoders.

Today I learnt that my CS2(60213 = v3 HW) is not compatible with the new CS3(60226)

I wondered if this was just a power/track consideration, and there is a comment in the article about this.
But then I read that the CS2(v3 HW) IS compatible with the CS3+(60216)
However "there can be only one"

The following statement from the MM 2016/02 summaries things
*= only 1 CS3 or 1 CS2 HW 3.x (or less) possible in the entire system
This comment accompanies a chart/table which includes CS3 to CS3+ connections


I cannot help but be skeptical of "Marketing's" hand in these restrictions
Why would you build (new) hardware that has different functional limitations

What is not stated , is the Master / Slave relationship
But an original idea that someone with a couple of chained CS2s could just add a CS3 as their next step has been stomped on
Peter
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#2 Posted : 20 April 2016 08:38:19(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Haven't read the article yet (only just got home from the G1 running) but is this to do with early versions of the CS2 not having galvanic isolation?

If so, then that is no different to what we currently have with the CS2 / remote CS2.

So for me, if I purchase a CS3+ I can use my 60214 CS2 HW3.4 as a remote controller, and any additional remote controllers should be CS3+.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#3 Posted : 20 April 2016 08:41:59(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Here's the chart Peter refers to.


Capture.JPG
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Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 20 April 2016 10:14:59(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
*= only 1 CS3 or 1 CS2 HW 3.x (or less) possible in the entire system
The information coming from Märklin is as clear and as precise as usual, so it leaves some room for speculation.

I assume this is an inclusive "or".

There can be only one CS3 in the system because the CS3 has no CAN input socket.
There can be only one 60213 in the system because the 60213 (and some 60214) do not have galvanic insulation. However this matters only with respect to the booster output AFAIK, so it should be OK IMHO to use two 60213 as long as one booster output is not in use or used in a way that does not require galvanic insulation.

So IMHO one CS3 and one (or more) 60213 can be used together, but the booster outputs of additional 60213 will have some restrictions.


There is some speculation that the CS3 may come without galvanic insulation.
I expect that it will be possible to connect CS3 and 60213 - but without galvanic insulation this minimal system would allow only one booster to be used.

It is possible that they added a restriction to prevent this combination (technical obsolescence) in order to sell more units.

They emphasize compatibility with 6021, but it seems they do not mention 60212 anywhere.


They write you don't have to throw the old controllers away. You can still use them as door stoppers. Wink
Time will tell whether there is better use for them.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#5 Posted : 22 April 2016 18:20:26(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

There can be only one CS3 in the system because the CS3 has no CAN input socket.


but ... but ... a mobile station runs on the same CAN bus, so AIUI there are two (10 pin) CAN input socket on a CS3 and CS3+. If the connection between CS units is done this way I am sure there would very soon be an entrepreneur supplying a suitable cable to do the connection that way.

But my understanding is that the connection between units is done on Ethernet, not CAN. I suspect the problem is that there is no provision for changing the network name in a CS2 or CS3, and they probably have the same name on the network (which would be stupid thing to do with two different models). Presumably the CS3+ has a different network name, but that also cannot be changed so there can only be one of them on the bus as well ...

So what is the betting that a future software update will allow the network name to be changed to allow more devices on the network?

Offline MaerklinLife  
#6 Posted : 22 April 2016 19:46:40(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
But my understanding is that the connection between units is done on Ethernet, not CAN. I suspect the problem is that there is no provision for changing the network name in a CS2 or CS3, and they probably have the same name on the network (which would be stupid thing to do with two different models). Presumably the CS3+ has a different network name, but that also cannot be changed so there can only be one of them on the bus as well ...

So what is the betting that a future software update will allow the network name to be changed to allow more devices on the network?

I would not bet on that, as the connection between the CS's is via CAN, and not Ethernet.

The only thing AFAIK connecting to a CS2 via Ethernet, is the CS1 with software version 2.0. I am not sure the CS1R will connect at all, but I am sure someone else know.

A past Märklin Magazin article mentioned that Märklin would perhaps release an upgrade kit, so you could upgrade your CS3 to a CS3Plus, should you regret having bought a CS3. Time will tell if the upgrade kit will be available. For now, if you are in doubt of which one to choose, choose the CS3Plus and be happy about it.
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Offline Minok  
#7 Posted : 22 April 2016 19:56:15(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Well, according to the 1/1 MM article "Die Option, eine CS3 zur CS3 plus aufzurüsten, ist übrigens schon in Vorbereitung." - so the option to upgrade a CS3 to a CS3+ is in prep. If that is merely a software unlock key to turn on features or a hardware swap isn't clear. From a production standpoint - I'd expect the best way is a software key enabling the firmware mode, and maybe a module change to give you the extra hardware/ports, but this implies the majority of the hardware is identical.

So what would you get new that would make your upgraded CS3->3+ suddenly ok with a CS2 v 3.x ?
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
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https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 22 April 2016 20:13:27(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
So what would you get new that would make your upgraded CS3->3+ suddenly ok with a CS2 v 3.x ?
CAN input socket and L88 socket?
Time will tell.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 22 April 2016 20:17:59(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
But my understanding is that the connection between units is done on Ethernet, not CAN.
Connection must be made via CAN to use all devices as boosters.
The 10-pin CAN sockets to not have the booster signal AFAIK.

It may be possible to connect other units via Ethernet, but then you cannot use those slaves as boosters.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline river6109  
#10 Posted : 23 April 2016 03:34:10(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Hi, to complicated and confusing for me, can, can't, maybe or perhaps, will see, can't tell, this is one reason I've decided after 3 years (must be at least 5 years since I've bought it) to buy an ECoS and I still can add my 6021 and enough mobile stations 1 to it.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline Goofy  
#11 Posted : 23 April 2016 15:25:46(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Make sure by decides to choise correct CS3! For me it's enough with an CS3 60226.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline sjbartels  
#12 Posted : 23 April 2016 17:30:55(UTC)
sjbartels

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,091
Everything I keep reading and hearing about CS3 up until now, and then this thread, it just reinforcing to me all the more to wait and not upgrade to the CS3 and stick with my CS2 (60215) for now and adopt a wait and see attitude. Right now it just seems more and more trouble for any benefit I might receive from said upgrade. Thoughts?
American by Geography, Australian by Birth. I am an original Ameristraylian
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Offline Goofy  
#13 Posted : 23 April 2016 17:33:45(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Hi, to complicated and confusing for me, can, can't, maybe or perhaps, will see, can't tell, this is one reason I've decided after 3 years (must be at least 5 years since I've bought it) to buy an ECoS and I still can add my 6021 and enough mobile stations 1 to it.

John


I can trust you,that ESU will too present an new station generation 3.
I see forward it,so we customer can see if any changed.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline kiwiAlan  
#14 Posted : 23 April 2016 18:04:58(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: sjbartels Go to Quoted Post
Everything I keep reading and hearing about CS3 up until now, and then this thread, it just reinforcing to me all the more to wait and not upgrade to the CS3 and stick with my CS2 (60215) for now and adopt a wait and see attitude. Right now it just seems more and more trouble for any benefit I might receive from said upgrade. Thoughts?


As you already have a 60215 my advice would be to stick with that. I certainly do not see any advantage in changing to a cs3 unless you have a very large layout running many trains.

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Offline MaerklinLife  
#15 Posted : 23 April 2016 19:37:19(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
The 10-pin CAN sockets to not have the booster signal AFAIK.
It may be possible to connect other units via Ethernet, but then you cannot use those slaves as boosters.

What do you mean by not having a booster signal? I connect the boosters to the CAN bus, either through the 6017x port or the 60125 Terminal.

What units, besides the CS1, should be able to connect via Ethernet?
Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 23 April 2016 19:56:42(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
What units, besides the CS1, should be able to connect via Ethernet?
The PC versions of the CS2 software, the iOS and Android versions.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline clapcott  
#17 Posted : 24 April 2016 23:15:45(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Hi All,

I think that those of us interested in this thread are not what Marklin consider their target audience.
In fact I would say this particular consideration is at the bottom of their list.

- The primary interest for any company is New business.
- - Starter sets are good but reduce margin - maybe next year, if their old CS2 stock has finally run out.
- Secondly they have the MS crowd who want a step up (actually those who Marklin want to have step up),
- - here, retaining the ROI of their MS2 AND using the power supply for m8x or l88 is a win win
- They probably bank on a percentage of die hard followers who will buy anyway (possible both CS3 and CS3+ - because they can)
- - this is there test market, if the CS3+ is a good seller they may move forward, if not they will back down to the CS3 as their flagship.

If anything I think Marklin consider their existing CS2 customer base a threat. A lot of this group, who might consider a CS3 will do so as a refresh/replace option, and will be looking to sell down their CS2. This will potentially flood the 2nd hand market and take away from "new business".

Overlaying all of this is the BYOD (Bring your own device) aspect - Smart phone, table, PC
- i.e. less demand for another significant throttle over the other side of the layout.


What is rare, if not unprecedented, is the announcement in focus here. Seeing this level of detail/information, BEFORE the product is even available, has to be an attempt at saving face.
It might be polite to consider this as a gesture to acknowledge the needs of its current customers. However I suspect it is more likely aimed at mitigating the number of service calls and warranty claims in the next couple of months.

Putting a "stake in the ground" now means they bear a burst of outrage but then people move on. The alternative would be a more prolonged festering of discontent as individual pockets of users and dealers find out about the limitations over a more prolonged length of time.

I would suggest to Marklin that they quickly update their video, the one with the image that shows the Network connection of a CS2, CS3 and CS3+ that also implies further expansion - but with no mention of hardware related limitations.
To emphasise this I would point out that, of the group of CS2 owners who are most likely to wish a layout extension with another controller, it will be those with a 60213(4) with its v3 HW that will be most interested.
Peter
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Offline Hackcell  
#18 Posted : 26 April 2016 19:09:01(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
IMHO, I'll wait to see if ESU comes up with a newer ECOS. My CS2 is doing well so far, so no need to change for the moment.
Danilo Jiménez
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Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
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