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Offline Hackcell  
#1 Posted : 24 August 2014 02:54:26(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
Hello,

Recently I purchashed a couple of old Santa Fe locos (3060,4060). I want to digitalize it and install a second motor into the dumb unit. I've seen in the Alco PA 37610-49610 consist the decoder has some wires from it to the rear motor and the lights. Since I couldn't find a decoder like, it I decided to open the M 37629: This train has a motor on the A unit and another motor on the second B unit. There is a small PCB with a MTC21 interface where all wires (both motors, speaker, lights and power) are soldered; the PCB says "Dekoder 112085". The second motor is connected an AUX output.
After researching online, I couldn't find anything about this interface. The decoder (164403) is mfx, so it makes things even more complicated to find how the two motors synch works.
I was wondering if somebody has experience with ESU decoders, since I'd like to install an ESU loksound decoder and have the second motor to an AUX output.

In other workds: Does anybody knows if it's possible to have a second motor connected to a loksound AUX output and have it synchronized with the main motor?

Thanks!
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
Offline kimballthurlow  
#2 Posted : 24 August 2014 03:41:38(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,655
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Danilo,

I have a US decoder (MRC) which I used to power 2 locomotives connected together. The locos were the same, Model Power F7.
I used the hard-wire method (no pin connection).

I simply paralleled the 2 wires from the decoder to each motor, and made sure the engines ran in the same direction.

I also connected 3 speakers in series to the same decoder.
For some reason which I don't understand, the speakers are connected in series.
Whereas the motors (which I do understand) are connected in parallel.

I connected 2 locos (powered) with one dummy permanently, and the A-B-A lash-up works fine with only one decoder.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline river6109  
#3 Posted : 24 August 2014 04:54:57(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Danillo, ESU decoders work fine for my locos with 2 motors, some locos have had 2 motors from the factory, such as Roco models, BLS Ae 8/8, SBB Ae 8/14 and some Märklin models such as the ICE, BR 188 diesel loco and my own converted DB BR 191 with 2 motors which at the moment I'm having problems with running with the same speed and it needs another look at it.
So in a nutshell 2 motors is not a problem at all but hoping both motors run at the same speed and this is where the problem can lie.

my installation of 5 pole motors is very thorough and I make sure the brush plate and especially the brush plate shafts are lined up at a correct 90° angle, I also use ball bearings but the 3060 has a small disk armature and adding a ball bearing on the back of the motor bogy could be tricky unless you've got the tools to drill a hole in an accurate position.

having had the BR 188 it had a slight different starting speed and the same applied to the SBB AE 8/14 from Märklin and I have the same initial minor jolt with my Roco models.

to be honest I haven't taken the time previously to try to see if I get both motors running smooth from the start, the moment they get over this hurdle, they seem to run Ok. but my BR 191 definitely has 2 motors running at different speeds; as I said above I'm very particular in putting the motor together and I'm not keen to take motors apart not so much the motor itself but all the wiring as I use thin wires And they tend to break off if they get moved to often. In your case this shouldn't happen as you have 2 individual locos and the wires which can be used can be of a thicker grade.

another option and you may not need to do this is use 1 sound decoder, 1 Lokpilot whereas you can program each decoder to its correct running characteristics so both run at the same speed. I've done this with my ICE 2 but this was purely because of the coupling connections between carriages and there weren't enough connections available to send all necessary wires from one motor car to the other.

there is no guarantee both motors will work exactly the same speed as Märklin, I assume, has the options to change armature, motor shields until they get the right speed for both or manipulate the decoder until it acceptable.

my findings are somewhat limited although I have converted a lot of locos but haven't had much to do by adding 2 motors with 1 decoder, except the BR 191 but in any case it will have nothing to do with the capacity of 1 decoder being able to run 2 motors. by the way the conversion sets you need are 60943.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline Hackcell  
#4 Posted : 24 August 2014 05:17:20(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
Hello John,

So you have both motors connected to the same motor output, as Kimball did, right?
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
Offline river6109  
#5 Posted : 24 August 2014 05:38:25(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
Hello John,

So you have both motors connected to the same motor output, as Kimball did, right?


yes, I don't think anybody from a factory outlet uses 2 decoders for 2 motors.


https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Hackcell  
#6 Posted : 24 August 2014 05:45:57(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
Hello John,

So you have both motors connected to the same motor output, as Kimball did, right?


yes, I don't think anybody from a factory outlet uses 2 decoders for 2 motors.




I thnk the same too. Perhaps somebody out there has managed to use a second motor using an AUX output as the 37629 does.
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 24 August 2014 08:49:16(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
Perhaps somebody out there has managed to use a second motor using an AUX output as the 37629 does.
You can configure a current Märklin mfx decoder to use the primary motor output as AUX5 and AUX6.
I never heard that it was done the other way around, e.g. using AUX1 and AUX2 for another motor. Would require a special firmware in the decoder or some undocumented CVs.

A single AUX won't be enough for a motor.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Hackcell  
#8 Posted : 24 August 2014 09:09:04(UTC)
Hackcell

Costa Rica   
Joined: 21/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 521
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
Perhaps somebody out there has managed to use a second motor using an AUX output as the 37629 does.
You can configure a current Märklin mfx decoder to use the primary motor output as AUX5 and AUX6.
I never heard that it was done the other way around, e.g. using AUX1 and AUX2 for another motor. Would require a special firmware in the decoder or some undocumented CVs.

A single AUX won't be enough for a motor.



Hi Tom,

Aftermarket mfx decoders with mtc21 adapter boards doesn't have more than 4 AUX outputs...
... Or maybe I haven't look meticulously.
Danilo Jiménez
Union Pacific and DB Cargo H0 models.
Märklin, Brawa, MTH and some Walthers cars (nobody is perfect!)
Pinball machines, jukeboxes and Horses.
Costa Rica, pura vida!!
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 24 August 2014 13:04:05(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Hackcell Go to Quoted Post
Aftermarket mfx decoders with mtc21 adapter boards doesn't have more than 4 AUX outputs...
There are 21 pins. Six are reserved for the motor (for decoders that can control C Sine motors directly - such decoders were never available).
NEM allows 8 function outputs (lights, AUX1 through AUX6), leaving only two output pins for the motor. Decoder boards have 21 pins - so you just have to find a decoder with 8 functions.
But that's off topic as this thread is about connecting two motors to one decoder.

Normally both motors are connected in parallel to the same decoder output (sometimes in series, but this should be done if the motors have a lower nominal voltage IMHO).

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Goofy  
#10 Posted : 24 August 2014 15:19:48(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Just in case to understand...motor draw lot of power...depends if you use old motor,like 5 pole DCM.
Not sure if decoder must have higher output draw power to feed two motor.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Martin T  
#11 Posted : 24 March 2016 19:41:56(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 872
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Hi!

I´ve been Reading this thread since I´m about to convert a EMD F7 locomotive. It´s Märklin item 3349 with two motors.
Drumcollectors..

What was the outcome for you River? What decoder did you use? Was it sound too?
I´m initially thinking to buy a diesel sound decoder of latest generation, but want to see if anyone here has some input Before.

Here´s my new AC-US-Beauty Love

UserPostedImage
Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
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Offline river6109  
#12 Posted : 25 March 2016 00:11:19(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Martin, this is right: sound decoder, 2 motors, 2 speakers

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by river6109
Offline 3rail4life  
#13 Posted : 25 March 2016 03:59:03(UTC)
3rail4life

United States   
Joined: 23/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Northern California
Hi All,

Last year I did a simple repair/ upgrade of a 3649 set using a 60942 mLD and two 60941 type motors. Hooked one motor to the other and added Rule 17 lighting to Aux 1 & 2. They ran great, wish I could had more more time to play with them or kept them...Cool







Cheers,
Gordon

Edited by user 30 March 2016 03:41:10(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline foumaro  
#14 Posted : 25 March 2016 05:23:37(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
I upgraded AT&SF marklin 3662 and ALASKA marklin 3462 with two 60941 motors and 60946 decoders.Both running like a dream,pulling a lot of cars very easily.I am very pleased with the result.ThumpUp
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Offline BrandonVA  
#15 Posted : 29 March 2016 02:34:37(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Hi all,

In addition to the other statements of success, here is a webpage from the late forum member Intruder (Svein), regarding upgrading Marklin 3346, which was a twin V36 diesel set with two motors (one per loco) using a single mfx decoder:

http://www.saebonet.com/svein/Tog/sites/D/3346.htm

-Brandon
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#16 Posted : 29 March 2016 18:12:14(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
Hi all,

In addition to the other statements of success, here is a webpage from the late forum member Intruder (Svein), regarding upgrading Marklin 3346, which was a twin V36 diesel set with two motors (one per loco) using a single mfx decoder:

http://www.saebonet.com/svein/Tog/sites/D/3346.htm

-Brandon


When doing double locos like this I believe the ESU M4 decoders can simulate two motors in a single decoder, with them starting separately, and allowing two speakers to be used.

Haven't tried it out myself, but the discussion on the Loksound yahoo Group seemed positive about it. There are some hoops to jump through to get it going, but once sorted apparently it sounds real nice.

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Offline Martin T  
#17 Posted : 17 April 2016 21:18:31(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 872
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Hi!

I have now successfully converted my 3349 Electro Motive F7 diesel Engine with dual motors using the following:

2pcs 60760 kits (Only using the motor parts, not the decoders)
1pcs 60976 kit (MSD3 diesel sound decoder 11-pin)

The loco signed in from the programming track, but it took like 10 minutes Before it was ready. Sound started first, but the motors didn´t start.
After that all was fine and it worked like a charm. I see no problems with the load correction or other motor features which possibly could have suffered from twice the normal load. ThumpUp

I did a video tutorial, but it´s still in editing. Will publish it here once ready.

UserPostedImage
Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
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Offline Martin T  
#18 Posted : 22 April 2016 06:58:49(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 872
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Hi!
Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
Offline river6109  
#19 Posted : 22 April 2016 08:02:53(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Martin T Go to Quoted Post
Hi!


Hi
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Martin T  
#20 Posted : 24 June 2016 09:21:31(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 872
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Here´s a short video of the process:

Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
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