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Offline Gregzim  
#1 Posted : 06 April 2016 07:45:49(UTC)
Gregzim

Australia   
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Posts: 116
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Can anyone explain the difference between Delta and digital please? Marklin locos advertised as delta - I thought - were digital? Just a minimal approach to digital - meaning a delta loco still has a decoder with an address that can be treated in the same way with a command station as any other digital loco?

Is this case?

Rgds

Greg
Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#2 Posted : 06 April 2016 07:53:54(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

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Posts: 1,044
Sort of, in my view Delta is the no frills/cut price version of digital. They've made several Delta decoders over the years (discontinued now so far as I know) some of the later ones went as far as having a function like to switch on or off the lights and had more addresses available but to put it in a nutshell:

Delta means
1)a very limited amount of fix addresses to choose from.
2)no control over functions, light,smoke,etc.
3)They still use the AC motor which means less control over the running properties.
Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 06 April 2016 08:03:41(UTC)
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Hi!
Delta is digital. Delta decoders use the same chips as digital decoders, but some parts are missing (no load regulation), headlights usually connected to the motor outputs.

Originally Posted by: Iamnotthecrazyone Go to Quoted Post
Delta means
1)a very limited amount of fix addresses to choose from.
All Delta decoders support 80 addresses. Some have 8 DIP switches, with others soldering skills are required (4 DIP switches allow 15 addresses).

Originally Posted by: Iamnotthecrazyone Go to Quoted Post
Delta means [...]
2)no control over functions, light,smoke,etc.
I have one Delta loco where the headlights can be controlled digitally ex works. It also has 80 addresses.

Originally Posted by: Iamnotthecrazyone Go to Quoted Post
Delta means [...]
3)They still use the AC motor which means less control over the running properties.
I have 3 Delta models that came with DC motors ex works. And there were more.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline mike c  
#4 Posted : 06 April 2016 08:04:14(UTC)
mike c

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Delta basically was a basic system that allowed for the control of four locomotives using a single transformer. It also permitted the use of those locomotives on digital layouts using the 4 addresses that Maerklin preassigned for Delta operation. Delta locomotives do not have separate features that can be controlled using the digital function buttons. As far as I remember, Delta was limited to the four addresses, which were the equivalent of Motorola digital decoder addresses (6080/6090) with only one of the available four dip switches set to on at a time.

Regards

Mike C
Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 06 April 2016 08:14:32(UTC)
H0


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Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
As far as I remember, Delta was limited to the four addresses, which were the equivalent of Motorola digital decoder addresses (6080/6090) with only one of the available four dip switches set to on at a time.
The Delta Control supports 5 addresses. One address has only 1 DIP switch on, three addresses use 2 DIP switches each, the last address has all 4 DIP switches on.
The remaining 10 addresses cannot be used with an unmodified Delta Control.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#6 Posted : 06 April 2016 09:05:26(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

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Hi Tom,
I know your knowledge on the technicalities of Marklin goes well beyond mine but I've got the feeling you did not read my whole post, only the conclusion.

I did mention those exceptions you are making except the motor. Probably most of my Delta have only four switches, no function and definitely all have a regular AC motor. Since when you buy a Delta loco you don't normally have information on the decoder that comes with it the worse can be assumed that is particularly important for a member that doesn't know them and could be disappointed if he is given the impression that Delta is just about the same as a full digital decoder.
Alex
Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 06 April 2016 09:17:20(UTC)
H0


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Märklin digital started with the 6080 decoders (1 function, no load regulation).
The latest Delta decoders are better than the first digital decoders (2 functions, but still no load regulation).

Digital has gone a long way. A 36xx locos probably runs like a Delta loco and not like the 37xxx locos of today (but some 37xxx locos do not have load regulation either).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline sjbartels  
#8 Posted : 06 April 2016 17:30:46(UTC)
sjbartels

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Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Märklin digital started with the 6080 decoders (1 function, no load regulation).
The latest Delta decoders are better than the first digital decoders (2 functions, but still no load regulation).

Digital has gone a long way. A 36xx locos probably runs like a Delta loco and not like the 37xxx locos of today (but some 37xxx locos do not have load regulation either).


Tom,

Since I've never even touched Delta, I went straight from analogue to CS2, based on your comments here concerning it, I know and understand that Delta is digital, but is it compatible with the latest and greatest, could for example the Delta ICE set run on a layout controlled by a CS2 as is, or would some modifications need to be made? (Assuming it was AC powered). This is just my curiosity coming out

Thanks in advance
American by Geography, Australian by Birth. I am an original Ameristraylian
Offline franciscohg  
#9 Posted : 06 April 2016 18:02:55(UTC)
franciscohg

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Hi, yes a Delta equipped unit will run as is in a Digitally controlled layout.
Regards
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Offline Webmaster  
#10 Posted : 06 April 2016 18:31:36(UTC)
Webmaster


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Delta is digital, but a little bit restrained.
The last Delta decoders did have 80 addresses + lights on/off. The last Delta controller also had a function button.

The earlier generations with 4 DIP-switches or 4 solder bridges had 16 addresses (but the electronic logic was capable of 80 if board was modified).

For possible addresses with the older Delta decoders, see this page.
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
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Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 06 April 2016 19:13:48(UTC)
H0


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Originally Posted by: sjbartels Go to Quoted Post
[...] could for example the Delta ICE set run on a layout controlled by a CS2 as is, or would some modifications need to be made?
Yes. With Delta, the headlights are typically coupled to the motor output, so intensity of lights increases with the speed. No load regulation, no acceleration/braking delay.
It runs like first generation digital, not third generation digital - but it runs without requiring modifications.

Which Delta ICE?
There is at least one with a five-pole DC motor that runs better than most other 36xx locos or Delta locos.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Minok  
#12 Posted : 06 April 2016 19:38:25(UTC)
Minok

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Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
The confusion comes about because of Marklins use of the marketing term "Digital" when referring to one of the several "digital control & decoding" systems that it produced over the years.

"digital" as a technology means there is digital data (addresses, modes, function on/off, etc) encoded in the track power, which a decoder on a consuming device such as a locomotive or switch can recognize as "addressed to it" and then decode the digital signal and take some action based on what the message says. The "digital" technology sees this digital data encoded and modulated on top of the power on the tracks.

"Digital" is a Märklin system brand name, like "Delta" or "System", and uses "digital" technology to transmit messages from a controller to consumers (eg locomotives).
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Offline sjbartels  
#13 Posted : 06 April 2016 19:46:43(UTC)
sjbartels

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Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: sjbartels Go to Quoted Post
[...] could for example the Delta ICE set run on a layout controlled by a CS2 as is, or would some modifications need to be made?
Yes. With Delta, the headlights are typically coupled to the motor output, so intensity of lights increases with the speed. No load regulation, no acceleration/braking delay.
It runs like first generation digital, not third generation digital - but it runs without requiring modifications.

Which Delta ICE?
There is at least one with a five-pole DC motor that runs better than most other 36xx locos or Delta locos.


I was just using the ICE as an example. From what you're saying here, this is exactly how I had figured Delta to be

Thanks!
American by Geography, Australian by Birth. I am an original Ameristraylian
Offline kiwiAlan  
#14 Posted : 06 April 2016 20:37:51(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
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Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
Delta is digital, but a little bit restrained.
The last Delta decoders did have 80 addresses + lights on/off. The last Delta controller also had a function button.

The earlier generations with 4 DIP-switches or 4 solder bridges had 16 addresses (but the electronic logic was capable of 80 if board was modified).

For possible addresses with the older Delta decoders, see this page.


Delta was an entry level digital system, using a reduced feature decoder. Initially it used solder jumpers as the address selection (the very earliest ones may have had DIP switches) with the four switches being the same as the odd numbered DIP switches on the full digital decoder.

The addresses were assigned to different classes of transport. This was done by using only one switch at a time to select the address to make it simple for the new entrant into the digital world. The classes to which the addresses were assigned were 'steam loco', electric loco', 'diesel loco', and 'railcar'. There was also a fifth selection which had all four switches on and this required an additional hand control that plugged onto a pair of connectors on the Delta control unit. The idea seemed to be that this would be for a 'premium Delta' loco that would be supplied with the additional hand piece and I am aware of only one loco provided like this, I think a Br50. The hand pece was also available as a separate item.

The original Delta controller had a selector switch with symbols for the different classes of loco. The speed was controlled by the speed know on the transformer originally used for AC control. This controller only knew the four addresses for the four pre-defined classes plus the additional hand piece. These four addresses have carried over into the IR controller and wired controller used in the Aldi start sets.

Locos that were supplied as Delta locos came with the address preset for the appropriate class of loco it represented. This meant that when little Hans opened his Christmas or Birthday present he could turn the knob on the Delta controller to the appropriate class and run his new item immediately without having to do any set up. I believe the entry level locos supplied now are still set this way to allow operation with the IR control supplied with start sets.

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Offline dominator  
#15 Posted : 06 April 2016 23:05:50(UTC)
dominator

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Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
Hi Greg, I am very new to digital. I only set up all my Locos on the new MS2 last night.

Delta is almost identical to analogue in the way the locos run, except you can run up to 4 of them together with a delta controller. The locos will go faster down hill than on the flat, and slow down going up hill, just like analogue.
Digital has acceleration and braking delay and on of of lights etc with the earlier locos with switches on their decoders. The digital loco will go practically the same speed whatever the location.
The new digital locos have " the works ' . These i don't have yet.

I like the slow speed control in digital, and to finally have locos with lights running. [ which cant or didn't happen when they were run on the Delta controller.

Hope this helps.

If you do go full digital, get help because the English instructions for the MS2 were bloody useless. The lack of simple instructions was stupid.

Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 07 April 2016 08:09:06(UTC)
H0


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Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
Digital has acceleration and braking delay and on of of lights etc with the earlier locos with switches on their decoders. The digital loco will go practically the same speed whatever the location.
Sorry, but that is nonsense.
Digital locos with 36xx numbers do not have load regulation, they do not have acceleration/braking delay, some have the lights always on - and still they are "märklin digital". Even some 37xxx locos do not have load regulation (but they should all have acceleration/braking delay).

BTW: 36xx locos on analogue layouts have their lights off, Delta locos have the lights on.

Don't expect too much when buying the first Delta loco. Don't expect too much when buying old "digital" locos (26xx, 36xx, 29xx).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline dominator  
#17 Posted : 07 April 2016 10:52:27(UTC)
dominator

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Location: Kerikeri
OH. it must only apply to the digital locos I bought [ 2 Crocs - 3756 & 26730, Br43 - 37882, Tegernsee diesel - 37645, . All purchased prior to 2001 or thereabouts. Nothing fancy, but all with accln braking delays and lights on of and forward reverse of lights. The 2 Delta locos [ P2 - 34121 and S 3/6 - 33185] run just like analogue with lights on all the time. I got a delta controller last year and found the digital locs lights would not work. I also have the Br41-029 out of the 29815 set which is supposed to be Delta but which has an 8 switch decoder and the rheostats for the accln and braking delay.
That's all I know about digital. Pretty basic. I'm just a learner.
DereckConfused
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline H0  
#18 Posted : 07 April 2016 12:03:34(UTC)
H0


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Märklin "digital" started around 1985 with the 6080 decoder. Better do not make general statements about "märklin digital" if you do not have at least one loco with 6080 decoder and AC/DC motor.

There are Delta controller that can control the headlights of digital locos, there are Delta controllers where the lights are always on, there are Delta controllers where the lights are always off.
Märklin has a clear system: everything is possible.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Gregzim  
#19 Posted : 07 April 2016 12:10:15(UTC)
Gregzim

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Location: Melbourne, Australia
OK - thanks for all of that - I get the sum of it all. Now the real question after I understand Delta more - I want to purchase Delta locos and then upgrade them to ESU Loksound decoders.

I already know Marklin have the annoying practice of soldering their decoders in place instead of using 8/12/21 pin connectors (unless they have changed that in latest locos - but I have had no need to open them to look) - so with Delta decoders soldered in - how complex is it to replace the Delta decoder with current decoder technology?

And - are there any wiring diagrams out there to show Delta upgrade procedure that anyone knows of?

I can send them away and get them done - but - I really want to do them myself as I intend to buy rare past locos (Swiss outline) of which there are a number in past Delta configuration.

My question first about Delta being 'digital' is in the hope that the upgrade procedure is simplified (although reading all of this post I doubt that will be the case - but would like to know if anyone has/is upgrading Deltas to current digital.

Thank you

Greg
Offline RayF  
#20 Posted : 07 April 2016 14:52:28(UTC)
RayF

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For most conversions that start with a delta loco you can pretend it was analogue. You still need to change the motor to a permanent magnet, add a decoder, re-wire the lights, etc.

Marklin have only recently started putting plug-in decoders in their locos, so no delta loco will be so equipped.
Ray
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#21 Posted : 07 April 2016 19:46:59(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
For most conversions that start with a delta loco you can pretend it was analogue. You still need to change the motor to a permanent magnet, add a decoder, re-wire the lights, etc.

Marklin have only recently started putting plug-in decoders in their locos, so no delta loco will be so equipped.


The first Marklin item I found with a plug in decoder was the 37770 'Hamburger' Railcar. It had an 8 pin NMRA connector (which surprised me), and made fitting the ESO sound decoder easy (ESU had a particular part number for the sound decoder to go in this item).

Offline H0  
#22 Posted : 07 April 2016 22:30:07(UTC)
H0


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Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Gregzim Go to Quoted Post
My question first about Delta being 'digital' is in the hope that the upgrade procedure is simplified (although reading all of this post I doubt that will be the case - but would like to know if anyone has/is upgrading Deltas to current digital.
The process varies from loco to loco.
The conversion of Delta locos with AC/DC motor is not easier than that of analogue locos with a 33xx or 34xx number, as Ray already pointed out. With analogue 30xx or 31xx locos the conversion of the lights can be a bit more complicated.
This conversion case is well documented - you can look at the manuals for 60760 or 60942 (even if you use ESU decoders for the conversion).

I'm about to convert two railcars, Märklin 3683 (full "digital") and 34831 (Delta).
They already have DC motors. The cable colours indicate the function of a cable, so I know where the cables of the new decoder have to be connected.
Both railcars have the same PCB, but the configuration differs. One PCB has 3 capacitors - two have to be removed for modern decoders.
One has a closed solder bridge that is open on the other - and vice versa. I will change that to get flicker-free lights.

Most Märklin decoders use "Märklin colours", some use "NMRA colours". ESU decoders use NMRA colours. Another detail you have to pay attention to.


Long story short: there is not a single guide that explains it all. But if you have a question about a specific conversion, just ask on the forum and you will probably get some help. Show some photos if no one has done the conversion before.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Gregzim  
#23 Posted : 08 April 2016 12:45:35(UTC)
Gregzim

Australia   
Joined: 09/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 116
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Great thanks. What do I look for to know if its a DC motor please? Armed with that I will open up a couple and send in some photos.

Does anyone know if HAG 3 rail analogue had DC motors or not? I have 7 HAG I want to convert to digital as well.

Regards

Greg
Offline H0  
#24 Posted : 08 April 2016 12:57:23(UTC)
H0


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Originally Posted by: Gregzim Go to Quoted Post
What do I look for to know if its a DC motor please?
The standard AC/DC motor has a field coil. DC motors have a permanent magnet.
First photo in post #4 shows a field coil (AC/DC motor):
https://www.marklin-user...15-Crocodiles#post413386

Originally Posted by: Gregzim Go to Quoted Post
Does anyone know if HAG 3 rail analogue had DC motors or not?
They used AC/DC motors (with field coil) and DC motors (permanent magnet).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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